Half-hearted studies, Half-hearted jobs?

[StatGuy2000]

But seriously, how does one teach critical thinking? The only way I can see it happening is by example. Perhaps by teaching rhetoric and fallacious arguments? How many STEM students ever take a course in Rhetoric?
These are the exact things that appear to be missing. The planning and the critical thinking. Instead, the student follows the checklist blindly, graduates... and then wonder what they're supposed to do next.

Perhaps one can argue that "critical thinking" as you are thinking of it cannot be effectively taught in any educational factor. Because essentially "critical thinking" involves the ability to question assumptions, and this can only be taught in an environment or culture that fosters such questioning. I can readily imagine that people who grow up in collectivist, highly conformist cultures, or cultures where religious observance is particularly strong, will have an especially difficult time in developing critical thinking skills (please note that I am not aware of any specific sociological study indicating whether this is true or not, so this is nothing more than my speculation).

 

[StatGuy2000]

By offering an alternative approach and proving that it works! Throughout this whole thread, people have repeatedly criticized various naive attitudes of students and tried to nail their causes, yet none offered any constructive alternative to those attitudes. A student must have some definite (even if somewhat vague) approach to his education and career that he can follow. Saying to an incoming freshman "study what you will, you may still get trashed in the end and struggle to find a job and you can't do anything about it" will achieve nothing but scare him. So, if we are to criticize this approach and wish to retire it, we must offer a good alternative.

EDIT: The checklist approach does offer a definite path through this system. Sure, it may not prevent difficulties upon graduation just like in your example, it may not prevent problems during the flight. But, given the limited effect a student can have on the market (or the pilot on the weather), it may constitute the best effort a student can make to minimize potential difficulties. (Or it may not be the best, then we need to expand the approach or offer an alternative that does a better job at this).

I would argue that in fact that good alternatives simply do not exist. I think we need to recognize that in life, there are no guarantees, and that students who pursue an education will always be at the vagaries of chance and will always face a risk that they will struggle to find a job or otherwise sink into poverty and despair, depending on the circumstances of the economy. Steps can be taken to mitigate that risk to a certain extent (being aware of options that are out there), but that risk will never disappear.

I think we need to understand and recognize that there are factors in life that are beyond our control, and that a certain percentage of people are guaranteed to fail, whether it is due to their own actions or lack of action. Success is never a guarantee. Should you worry? Yes, you should worry to the extent that you have control over events.

Perhaps my sentiments above may come across as overly pessimistic, but I would argue that what I've stated is cold, hard realism.

 

[ELB27]

I would argue (and I'm not sure the various PF forums will say otherwise) that in fact that good alternatives simply do not exist. I think we need to recognize that in life, there are no guarantees, and that students who pursue an education will always be at the vagaries of chance and will always face a risk that they will struggle to find a job, depending on the circumstances of the economy.

And yet this risk depends on the particular career path you choose and can be to a limited extent predicted. That's what planning is for. The checklist on the other hand is an efficient way to organize and execute those plans. Sure, to be truly successful, this checklist must be continuously examined and, if necessary, altered to better suit the changing reality, but it still should exist.

I think we need to understand and recognize that there are factors in life that are beyond our control, and that a certain percentage of people are guaranteed to fail, whether it is due to their own actions or inactions.

If you were, say, an incoming freshman considering the various choices before you, would you take such a thought into account? Would you be able to "accept" that you may be "destined" to fail regardless of your choice? Or would you rather follow some plan that will at least give you an opportunity to advance?

 

[StatGuy2000]

And yet this risk depends on the particular career path you choose and can be to a limited extent predicted. That's what planning is for. The checklist on the other hand is an efficient way to organize and execute those plans. Sure, to be truly successful, this checklist must be continuously examined and, if necessary, altered to better suit the changing reality, but it still should exist.

First of all, I agree with you at all that planning and the use of a checklist is useful (in various other threads), I have advocated for careful thought and planning to specifically mitigate the risks and increase the overall chance of success (this would include improving one's spoken communication skills, develop programming skills for people in specific technical disciplines, work on improving resume writing, networking, etc.) I also agree that that these checklists or plans need to be continuously examined and altered with changing realities. What I am arguing is that checklists or plans do not completely mitigate the risk of struggles.

If you were, say, an incoming freshman considering the various choices before you, would you take such a thought into account? Would you be able to "accept" that you may be "destined" to fail regardless of your choice? Or would you rather follow some plan that will at least give you an opportunity to advance?

You are misunderstanding what I am saying. I have never accepted, nor have I ever stated, that anyone is destined for failure regardless of their choice. When I state that certain percentage of people are guaranteed to fail, I was speaking in a "macro" sense of an entire population. I wasn't speaking about an individual person or even a specific group of people.

If you take a look at the entire college/university student population of the US (as an example), you will find that there is a certain percentage of these that either (a) do not graduate, (b) struggle to find work after graduation, or (c) struggle to find work commensurate with their education. That percentage may be small, but it is non-zero. That is a fact.

I do not feel anyone is destined or pre-destined for anything. Chance and random factors will have an impact on the trajectory of our lives, but so do the choices we make. And yes, following a well-thought out plan is crucial to give an opportunity for advancement.

 

[atyy]

Some historical questions related to the OP:

How much of what is anecdotally described in the OP is due to the economic downturn around 2008, when I think most would agree that the problem was more due to "the system", rather than to individuals lacking a reasonable plan (though I would welcome debate on that too)?

Will things change now that the economy has improved, at least in the US, to the point where there is talk of the Fed raising interest rates?

But I presume the new emphasis on internships will not go away soon.

Do things differ by country?

 

[JakeBrodskyPE]

here you use "planning" as something deeper than "checklisting", whereas I would say planning and checklisting are really the same.

You're quite right. I use the term planning to refer to specific plans of direction toward some positive goal. Checklists are developed from the experience of others to keep you from making mistakes that many before you have made. They are two sides of the same coin, though one is goal oriented, and the other is to help keep you out of trouble.

That said, schools have been under a great deal of pressure to teach in checklist fashion so that students learn certain skills at certain stages. So far, that's good. But it doesn't impart a sense of direction to them. I'm not even certain that the sense of direction is something the students should get from a school.

So if that sense of direction doesn't come from a school, should it come from family? A religious institution? Hobbies? Mentors? Where do people get their ideas from, and what can we do to ensure that most students do in fact have a goal of some sort?

 

[Rika]

Do things differ by country?

No.

Will things change now that the economy has improved, at least in the US, to the point where there is talk of the Fed raising interest rates?

It's only my opinion but I don't think so. It's not like there was a crisis but now it's gone and everything will be all right. Whole economy is changing. Going back to what was before is impossible. It has always been "survival of the fittest" game. If you can't fit you are out. The problem is people who were kept in glass bubbles their whole life can't adjust to changes. Changes means checklist that worked before, doesn't work now.

So if that sense of direction doesn't come from a school, should it come from family? A religious institution? Hobbies? Mentors? Where do people get their ideas from, and what can we do to ensure that most students do in fact have a goal of some sort?

I'll ask different question - why did you grow up in different world? Why did you have a goal and knew what to do? I don't know a better word so let's say "system" wasn't ideal but it's broken now. Why is it broken? Why it wasn't when you grew up?

 

[StatGuy2000]

No.
It's only my opinion but I don't think so. It's not like there was a crisis but now it's gone and everything will be all right. Whole economy is changing. Going back to what was before is impossible. It has always been "survival of the fittest" game. If you can't fit you are out. The problem is people who were kept in glass bubbles their whole life can't adjust to changes. Changes means checklist that worked before, doesn't work now.
I'll ask different question - why did you grow up in different world? Why did you have a goal and knew what to do? I don't know a better word so let's say "system" wasn't ideal but it's broken now. Why is it broken? Why it wasn't when you grew up?

So you are essentially saying that a certain percentage of people are essentially guaranteed to fail and struggle with life, is that right?

 

[Wade3]

I can honestly tell you what gave me my direction, and I think it could be applicable to all people. I am a mechanical drafter, trained at a 4 semester tech school. I had gone to college for 2 years studying liberal arts, but was forced to leave after making little commitment to a field of study (sociology). I would, however not take back the education I did get there even though I have about 18 thousand left to pay off from it. It gave a good sense of world history and perspective, which helped lead me to my real answer. After leaving college, and having as a main preoccupation social progress and alternative economies, I then came back to a documentary I had seen during high school, the Zeitgeist series, which brings one's mind to ponder the real meaning of human civilization. It was that which gave me the reference I needed to conclude that mechanical drafting is a basic tool for fulfilling the purpose of human life, which is to improve the world for the sake of the species and the future. I also toyed with the idea of going into the heating and refrigeration program at that school, because of how that knowledge can be used to affect the cost of living, which I see as affecting unemployment and the ability of society to support workers, leading to better conditions.

 

[JakeBrodskyPE]

I'll ask different question - why did you grow up in different world? Why did you have a goal and knew what to do? I don't know a better word so let's say "system" wasn't ideal but it's broken now. Why is it broken? Why it wasn't when you grew up?

I knew it from the start. I can't explain it. School was a means to that end.

It was practically biological for me. For as long as I can remember (age 5) I have been fascinated by radios. They still fascinate me today, and I know an awful lot more about them than I did as a child. I got into ham radio. I studied electronics and extra math because I knew I'd need that to continue along that route. I got into electrical engineering, knowing that I wanted to do something with radios and telecommunications. I was into engineering too. My brothers and I used to build cars out of Lego and crash them. The winners were the ones that lost the fewest pieces. We'd make paper airplanes and see whose flew the furthest or the longest. We'd build rockets with payloads of various insects to see how well they endured the ride (not very well, unfortunately).

I naturally gravitated toward this because I couldn't imagine doing anything else. I was usually ahead of what they taught in schools, so I merely tried to get the assignments done so that teachers would think they'd taught me something. While I did learn a few things in college, most of what I learned came through my own study. I've always had a jaundiced eye toward the educational establishment because, at least for me, it was often just a damned a rubber stamp that someone else agreed that I already knew what I needed to know.

I know, that's a arrogant way of looking at it. However, I already knew many of the things they were supposed to "teach" me before I ever set foot in the classroom. I knew it because I was already very interested and I had studied it on my own, or I didn't give a damn and then I'd get fairly ordinary grades.

So I'm genuinely puzzled as to how this empty mindset, almost bereft of any goal, happens so often. I'm probably the anomaly and they're probably the normal ones. But that said, I'm not sure how to instill a goal in these students, to light the fires of curiosity and enthusiasm, so as to encourage them to set goals for themselves. That's ultimately the reason for this thread.

 

[donpacino]

I know, that's a arrogant way of looking at it. However, I already knew many of the things they were supposed to "teach" me before I ever set foot in the classroom. I knew it because I was already very interested and I had studied it on my own, or I didn't give a damn and then I'd get fairly ordinary grades.

So I'm genuinely puzzled as to how this empty mindset, almost bereft of any goal, happens so often. I'm probably the anomaly and they're probably the normal ones. But that said, I'm not sure how to instill a goal in these students, to light the fires of curiosity and enthusiasm, so as to encourage them to set goals for themselves. That's ultimately the reason for this thread.

One problem is that not everyone will be entirely interested by what can currently make money as a job. Many people are interested in music, dance, travel, food, etc. You're lucky you have a great interest in electronics and you're good at it. Many people do not have that privilege. If someone is good enough to be an engineer, but their true passion lies in pottery, it might be hard to really set a goal and convince the student to do anything more than what is required to get a well paying job.

 

[JakeBrodskyPE]

One problem is that not everyone will be entirely interested by what can currently make money as a job. Many people are interested in music, dance, travel, food, etc. You're lucky you have a great interest in electronics and you're good at it. Many people do not have that privilege. If someone is good enough to be an engineer, but their true passion lies in pottery, it might be hard to really set a goal and convince the student to do anything more than what is required to get a well paying job.

Yes, I approach many things with the eye of an engineer. But I have also seen people approach things with the view as a financier, an entrepreneur, a politician, a lawyer, a salesman, an artist, or even as a heavy construction operator... My point is that I got excited about SOMETHING. Any of these things can make a living. Why is it that some people drift from place to place and yet others pursue their interests with gusto?

 

[Rika]

So you are essentially saying that a certain percentage of people are essentially guaranteed to fail and struggle with life, is that right?

No. It's not about "a certain percentage of people". What I'm saying - if you don't have nessesary skills you will fail. If you don't master A-level math, you won't be able to pass very first test of math/physics degree. But it doesn't mean you are going to fail for eternity. If you learn A-level math you can move forward.

So yeah - people who don't have nessesary "life skills" are essentially guaranteed to fail and struggle with life but it doesn't mean they can't change it and it's not a miniority. I would say majority will struggle because young people aren't prepared to face reality.

Yes, I approach many things with the eye of an engineer. But I have also seen people approach things with the view as a financier, an entrepreneur, a politician, a lawyer, a salesman, an artist, or even as a heavy construction operator... My point is that I got excited about SOMETHING. Any of these things can make a living. Why is it that some people drift from place to place and yet others pursue their interests with gusto?

I had several hobbies and for a long time I couldn't choose just one. I needed to experience much more in order to choose. On the other hand I was discouraged to pursue hobbies that wasn't "marketable" even if in fact they were. For example you can make good living as graphic designer, vfx artist, industrial designer, illustrator, tatooist and so on and if you work hard=have strong portfolio you will get a job. But I was told by my parents that doing art is bad. It's true that if you want to be gallery artist it's hard and there are tons of people who go to art school with strange expectations. They don't work hard, don't have a goal so they fail. Those who work hard with or without art school usually don't.
On the other hand making your living as a writer is 10 times harder that as artist. I needed experience to learn that. But writing is still easier than academia and in my country it's as hard as some engineering since we don't have great industry here. And yet I was pushed to do engineering :D

So you see - many young people prefer to do nothing because they are discouraged or they drift because they don't like to fail and make an effort or like me they didn't have proper guidance.

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/at-a-loss-existential-crisis.831183/ - excellent example of what we are talking about. See how retarded is that?

 

[donpacino]

Yes, I approach many things with the eye of an engineer. But I have also seen people approach things with the view as a financier, an entrepreneur, a politician, a lawyer, a salesman, an artist, or even as a heavy construction operator... My point is that I got excited about SOMETHING. Any of these things can make a living. Why is it that some people drift from place to place and yet others pursue their interests with gusto?

many people drift because they plain don't know what to do. Whatever they enjoy doing (if they even know what it is) does not pay the bills or allow them to 100% live the life they want. So they are forced to compromise.

 

[votingmachine]

There was a time when college was a basic filter. Professional jobs hired college graduates and trained them for the job. College graduation indicated a reasonable level of self-organizational skills and reasonable smarts. That filter effect was valuable, but everyone wants the end result of passing thru the filter, and getting a good job.

There is nothing wrong with wanting a job that pays well. I know many people who quite happily chose to enter a field that paid 6-figures, and are quite happy working, and then enjoying the lifestyle they can afford.

It is difficult to point to the top-10 paying jobs with any assurance. But if you have insight into job demand, and possible financial reward opportunities, tell that to the people that ask ... again, there is nothing wrong with having a job that pays well.

I think that students would like it if College was still just that basic filter, and industries recruited all the college graduates for management and professional jobs. Now students feel they need a second degree, or a third degree, or a post-doc, or etc. There is a rat race going on in education. Everyone wants to get a good job, and live a nice life, but those opportunities are getting scarce.

Doing what you love is not necessarily the best advice. I love to ski, and play guitar. I can do both as hobbies. I agree that building one's own business is neglected as a path.

 

[jasonRF]

But seriously, how does one teach critical thinking? The only way I can see it happening is by example. Perhaps by teaching rhetoric and fallacious arguments? How many STEM students ever take a course in Rhetoric?
These are the exact things that appear to be missing. The planning and the critical thinking. Instead, the student follows the checklist blindly, graduates... and then wonder what they're supposed to do next.

I never learned rhetoric, but college classes in social science were all about critical thinking. This was a shock to me as an incoming freshman engineering student with a relatively poor high school background. I knew I was in trouble when the history class I took first semester had ten (!) books we had to purchase. Reading books by Nietzsche, Freud, etc., criticizing the logic of their arguments to discuss in class, then building our own arguments and cranking out a paper every couple of weeks definitely was a worthwhile, if painful experience. In intro philosophy we learned the different types of arguments, which were valid and why, and then analyzed the arguments from many influential philosophers, and again were required to construct our own logically sound arguments. Part of philosophy involved identifying the premises that were often implied but not explicitly stated. Dissussion sections had us applying these approaches to issues of more immediate concern to college students.

Planning is another thing altogether ... one I cannot claim I have mastered.

jason

 

[symbolipoint]

Rika wrote this in one of his responses:

I'll ask different question - why did you grow up in different world? Why did you have a goal and knew what to do? I don't know a better word so let's say "system" wasn't ideal but it's broken now. Why is it broken? Why it wasn't when you grew up?

Not all parts of a system are broke at the same time. Throughout childhood education we are increasingly lead to believe, "The more Mathematics we can learn and understand, the better"; but those who teach their Mathematics usually cannot be too specific (or they have too little time to).

The younger children are/may be placed as best their school can do, and the smart kids learn their Basic Math and their simple Geometry, while the not-so bright kids learn poorly at best. There may be some tutoring added, either arranged in the school or district, or arranged by the kid's family, or possibly the teacher give extra time(instructive attention to help). Later, the older kids may choose a track voluntarily and use all college prep Math courses for their last years in secondary school - who knows why - maybe because the kids want to go to a university to study something in sciences or engineering. These are usually the more motivated students in high schools and so their effort to learn and understand is higher than the students who try to avoid any extra mathematics.

Even the "not-so-bright" students in the younger grades have a big chance to do much better in Mathematics once they reach high school and go through the college prep Math courses, if they stick to them every year of high school. The sequence of courses by then is better than what they may have found when they were in elementary school.

 

[StatGuy2000]

many people drift because they plain don't know what to do. Whatever they enjoy doing (if they even know what it is) does not pay the bills or allow them to 100% live the life they want. So they are forced to compromise.

I think you raise an interesting point above, but it goes beyond simply compromising. There are some people out there who have a driving passion for a topic/subject/anything, and are driven to pursue that passion. For me, I've had a huge passion for learning just about anything, and I was fortunate to have a family who encouraged that passion. Unfortunately, many people grow up as children in households where such passion are not nurtured (in fact, often times actively discouraged or suppressed). And often times, if interests/passions are not nurtured, it shouldn't be all that surprising that they will drift from one thing or another without finding anything truly worthwhile.

It's also worth noting that often times, it is difficult to develop a passion for something without knowing what options are truly available out there. Let's take me as an example. I started out as a pure math major -- I was always interested in mathematics and I've always assumed I would study either math, or a math-intensive field. I had no knowledge whatsoever about statistics when I started school. It wasn't until my second year in school, when I took some courses in statistics, talked to my TAs about career options in that field, and read more, did I even become aware of statistics as a possible career option. How could I possibly develop a passion for statistics without knowing anything about it?

 

[donpacino]

How could I possibly develop a passion for statistics without knowing anything about it?

I feel that question is at the heart of the JakebrodskyPE's purpose for this thread. How can better expose people to the possibilities! (jake I'm putting words in your mouth so correct me if I am wrong).

as far as the solution to that problem, I'm not sure

 

[StatGuy2000]

I feel that question is at the heart of the JakebrodskyPE's purpose for this thread. How can better expose people to the possibilities! (jake I'm putting words in your mouth so correct me if I am wrong).

as far as the solution to that problem, I'm not sure

I agree, and my reply is that there is a fundamental limit in the ability of secondary schools to inform students about the possibilities out there. The push really has to come from employers or business/trade/professional organizations (like the ASA) to engage in outreach to students, at both the secondary school and college/university level.

 

[ELB27]

The push really has to come from employers or business/trade/professional organizations (like the ASA) to engage in outreach to students, at both the secondary school and college/university level.

But what is the incentive for them to do so? If I understand the situation correctly, employers already get many more applications than they can handle and thus, every possible filter will only come in handy to them. People's ignorance/lack of motivation to push themselves to enter the working world simply serves as a filter that filters out the most low-motivated students or those that lack direction and are therefore less likely to invest themselves in the work of the company or do so to a lesser degree as they are unsure, for instance, that it's their "true passion".

If the above picture is indeed correct, I think that the situation mainly contributes to employers. The drawback is that they might be losing some very talented employees who simply don't know the employer's field exists.

 

[Rika]

Is that really the case? That economy is so broken that there is not enough jobs (any, not only college-level) for young people? I'm thinking about Germany now. System there is good.