Half-hearted studies, Half-hearted jobs?

[donpacino]

I know, that's a arrogant way of looking at it. However, I already knew many of the things they were supposed to "teach" me before I ever set foot in the classroom. I knew it because I was already very interested and I had studied it on my own, or I didn't give a damn and then I'd get fairly ordinary grades.

So I'm genuinely puzzled as to how this empty mindset, almost bereft of any goal, happens so often. I'm probably the anomaly and they're probably the normal ones. But that said, I'm not sure how to instill a goal in these students, to light the fires of curiosity and enthusiasm, so as to encourage them to set goals for themselves. That's ultimately the reason for this thread.

One problem is that not everyone will be entirely interested by what can currently make money as a job. Many people are interested in music, dance, travel, food, etc. You're lucky you have a great interest in electronics and you're good at it. Many people do not have that privilege. If someone is good enough to be an engineer, but their true passion lies in pottery, it might be hard to really set a goal and convince the student to do anything more than what is required to get a well paying job.

 

[JakeBrodskyPE]

One problem is that not everyone will be entirely interested by what can currently make money as a job. Many people are interested in music, dance, travel, food, etc. You're lucky you have a great interest in electronics and you're good at it. Many people do not have that privilege. If someone is good enough to be an engineer, but their true passion lies in pottery, it might be hard to really set a goal and convince the student to do anything more than what is required to get a well paying job.

Yes, I approach many things with the eye of an engineer. But I have also seen people approach things with the view as a financier, an entrepreneur, a politician, a lawyer, a salesman, an artist, or even as a heavy construction operator... My point is that I got excited about SOMETHING. Any of these things can make a living. Why is it that some people drift from place to place and yet others pursue their interests with gusto?

 

[Rika]

So you are essentially saying that a certain percentage of people are essentially guaranteed to fail and struggle with life, is that right?

No. It's not about "a certain percentage of people". What I'm saying - if you don't have nessesary skills you will fail. If you don't master A-level math, you won't be able to pass very first test of math/physics degree. But it doesn't mean you are going to fail for eternity. If you learn A-level math you can move forward.

So yeah - people who don't have nessesary "life skills" are essentially guaranteed to fail and struggle with life but it doesn't mean they can't change it and it's not a miniority. I would say majority will struggle because young people aren't prepared to face reality.

Yes, I approach many things with the eye of an engineer. But I have also seen people approach things with the view as a financier, an entrepreneur, a politician, a lawyer, a salesman, an artist, or even as a heavy construction operator... My point is that I got excited about SOMETHING. Any of these things can make a living. Why is it that some people drift from place to place and yet others pursue their interests with gusto?

I had several hobbies and for a long time I couldn't choose just one. I needed to experience much more in order to choose. On the other hand I was discouraged to pursue hobbies that wasn't "marketable" even if in fact they were. For example you can make good living as graphic designer, vfx artist, industrial designer, illustrator, tatooist and so on and if you work hard=have strong portfolio you will get a job. But I was told by my parents that doing art is bad. It's true that if you want to be gallery artist it's hard and there are tons of people who go to art school with strange expectations. They don't work hard, don't have a goal so they fail. Those who work hard with or without art school usually don't.
On the other hand making your living as a writer is 10 times harder that as artist. I needed experience to learn that. But writing is still easier than academia and in my country it's as hard as some engineering since we don't have great industry here. And yet I was pushed to do engineering :D

So you see - many young people prefer to do nothing because they are discouraged or they drift because they don't like to fail and make an effort or like me they didn't have proper guidance.

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/at-a-loss-existential-crisis.831183/ - excellent example of what we are talking about. See how retarded is that?

 

[donpacino]

Yes, I approach many things with the eye of an engineer. But I have also seen people approach things with the view as a financier, an entrepreneur, a politician, a lawyer, a salesman, an artist, or even as a heavy construction operator... My point is that I got excited about SOMETHING. Any of these things can make a living. Why is it that some people drift from place to place and yet others pursue their interests with gusto?

many people drift because they plain don't know what to do. Whatever they enjoy doing (if they even know what it is) does not pay the bills or allow them to 100% live the life they want. So they are forced to compromise.

 

[votingmachine]

There was a time when college was a basic filter. Professional jobs hired college graduates and trained them for the job. College graduation indicated a reasonable level of self-organizational skills and reasonable smarts. That filter effect was valuable, but everyone wants the end result of passing thru the filter, and getting a good job.

There is nothing wrong with wanting a job that pays well. I know many people who quite happily chose to enter a field that paid 6-figures, and are quite happy working, and then enjoying the lifestyle they can afford.

It is difficult to point to the top-10 paying jobs with any assurance. But if you have insight into job demand, and possible financial reward opportunities, tell that to the people that ask ... again, there is nothing wrong with having a job that pays well.

I think that students would like it if College was still just that basic filter, and industries recruited all the college graduates for management and professional jobs. Now students feel they need a second degree, or a third degree, or a post-doc, or etc. There is a rat race going on in education. Everyone wants to get a good job, and live a nice life, but those opportunities are getting scarce.

Doing what you love is not necessarily the best advice. I love to ski, and play guitar. I can do both as hobbies. I agree that building one's own business is neglected as a path.

 

[jasonRF]

But seriously, how does one teach critical thinking? The only way I can see it happening is by example. Perhaps by teaching rhetoric and fallacious arguments? How many STEM students ever take a course in Rhetoric?
These are the exact things that appear to be missing. The planning and the critical thinking. Instead, the student follows the checklist blindly, graduates... and then wonder what they're supposed to do next.

I never learned rhetoric, but college classes in social science were all about critical thinking. This was a shock to me as an incoming freshman engineering student with a relatively poor high school background. I knew I was in trouble when the history class I took first semester had ten (!) books we had to purchase. Reading books by Nietzsche, Freud, etc., criticizing the logic of their arguments to discuss in class, then building our own arguments and cranking out a paper every couple of weeks definitely was a worthwhile, if painful experience. In intro philosophy we learned the different types of arguments, which were valid and why, and then analyzed the arguments from many influential philosophers, and again were required to construct our own logically sound arguments. Part of philosophy involved identifying the premises that were often implied but not explicitly stated. Dissussion sections had us applying these approaches to issues of more immediate concern to college students.

Planning is another thing altogether ... one I cannot claim I have mastered.

jason

 

[symbolipoint]

Rika wrote this in one of his responses:

I'll ask different question - why did you grow up in different world? Why did you have a goal and knew what to do? I don't know a better word so let's say "system" wasn't ideal but it's broken now. Why is it broken? Why it wasn't when you grew up?

Not all parts of a system are broke at the same time. Throughout childhood education we are increasingly lead to believe, "The more Mathematics we can learn and understand, the better"; but those who teach their Mathematics usually cannot be too specific (or they have too little time to).

The younger children are/may be placed as best their school can do, and the smart kids learn their Basic Math and their simple Geometry, while the not-so bright kids learn poorly at best. There may be some tutoring added, either arranged in the school or district, or arranged by the kid's family, or possibly the teacher give extra time(instructive attention to help). Later, the older kids may choose a track voluntarily and use all college prep Math courses for their last years in secondary school - who knows why - maybe because the kids want to go to a university to study something in sciences or engineering. These are usually the more motivated students in high schools and so their effort to learn and understand is higher than the students who try to avoid any extra mathematics.

Even the "not-so-bright" students in the younger grades have a big chance to do much better in Mathematics once they reach high school and go through the college prep Math courses, if they stick to them every year of high school. The sequence of courses by then is better than what they may have found when they were in elementary school.

 

[StatGuy2000]

many people drift because they plain don't know what to do. Whatever they enjoy doing (if they even know what it is) does not pay the bills or allow them to 100% live the life they want. So they are forced to compromise.

I think you raise an interesting point above, but it goes beyond simply compromising. There are some people out there who have a driving passion for a topic/subject/anything, and are driven to pursue that passion. For me, I've had a huge passion for learning just about anything, and I was fortunate to have a family who encouraged that passion. Unfortunately, many people grow up as children in households where such passion are not nurtured (in fact, often times actively discouraged or suppressed). And often times, if interests/passions are not nurtured, it shouldn't be all that surprising that they will drift from one thing or another without finding anything truly worthwhile.

It's also worth noting that often times, it is difficult to develop a passion for something without knowing what options are truly available out there. Let's take me as an example. I started out as a pure math major -- I was always interested in mathematics and I've always assumed I would study either math, or a math-intensive field. I had no knowledge whatsoever about statistics when I started school. It wasn't until my second year in school, when I took some courses in statistics, talked to my TAs about career options in that field, and read more, did I even become aware of statistics as a possible career option. How could I possibly develop a passion for statistics without knowing anything about it?

 

[donpacino]

How could I possibly develop a passion for statistics without knowing anything about it?

I feel that question is at the heart of the JakebrodskyPE's purpose for this thread. How can better expose people to the possibilities! (jake I'm putting words in your mouth so correct me if I am wrong).

as far as the solution to that problem, I'm not sure

 

[StatGuy2000]

I feel that question is at the heart of the JakebrodskyPE's purpose for this thread. How can better expose people to the possibilities! (jake I'm putting words in your mouth so correct me if I am wrong).

as far as the solution to that problem, I'm not sure

I agree, and my reply is that there is a fundamental limit in the ability of secondary schools to inform students about the possibilities out there. The push really has to come from employers or business/trade/professional organizations (like the ASA) to engage in outreach to students, at both the secondary school and college/university level.

 

[ELB27]

The push really has to come from employers or business/trade/professional organizations (like the ASA) to engage in outreach to students, at both the secondary school and college/university level.

But what is the incentive for them to do so? If I understand the situation correctly, employers already get many more applications than they can handle and thus, every possible filter will only come in handy to them. People's ignorance/lack of motivation to push themselves to enter the working world simply serves as a filter that filters out the most low-motivated students or those that lack direction and are therefore less likely to invest themselves in the work of the company or do so to a lesser degree as they are unsure, for instance, that it's their "true passion".

If the above picture is indeed correct, I think that the situation mainly contributes to employers. The drawback is that they might be losing some very talented employees who simply don't know the employer's field exists.

 

[Rika]

Is that really the case? That economy is so broken that there is not enough jobs (any, not only college-level) for young people? I'm thinking about Germany now. System there is good.