Has Dark Matter's Mystery Finally Been Solved?

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Recent discussions on dark matter highlight ongoing debates about its existence and nature. Some participants argue that current models, particularly regarding elliptical galaxies, may not accurately prove dark matter's presence, suggesting alternative interpretations should be considered. Others propose that dark matter could be composed of ordinary materials like black holes or dust, while also acknowledging the limitations of existing gravitational theories. The conversation emphasizes the need for rigorous scientific scrutiny and the potential for new evidence to emerge in the coming years. Ultimately, the mystery surrounding dark matter remains unresolved, with various theories still under investigation.
  • #31
Chronos said:
Turbo, I am curious. What alternative model do you have in mind that predicted the CMB monopoles?
Well, first off, perfect black bodies are the ultimate absorbers and emitters of EM. This is basic optics and basic thermodynamics. If you have spent any time outside on a clear Maine night in February (especially if you forgot your hat!), you will understand very quickly that the night sky (less the shielding effects of the atmosphere) is a wonderful blackbody absorber/emitter. Once you get above the sheilding effect of the atmosphere, "empty" space should be a nearly perfect blackbody absorber/emittor, apart from the embedded emitting masses, like galaxies, clusters, etc.

It is very easy to understand how the temperature of "empty" space is a pure blackbody curve. It is a little tougher to understand why EM emitted, absorbed, and re-emitted throughout the entire recomination era of the BB can appear to us today as a perfect blackbody curve. This is not an insignificant question, and I welcome explanations.

If we believe that the temperature of space is 2.7K, (as predicted pretty closely by any number of astronomers and physicists that adhered to the steady state model), we should be willing to believe that doppler effects due to the motions of the Earth through the Universe will produce anisotropies in the CMB. The largest anisotropy will be a dipole (not a monopole, Chronos:smile:) resulting from the dominant gross movement of our galaxy or group. The remaining anisotropies will be more and more difficult to quantify, as errors in the process of subtracting the major ones multiply, but I firmly believe that they will ultimately be proven to arise from the complex movements of our probes in relation to local space.

If the small angle anisotropies (let's say even as large as 1 degree, to be exceedingly generous, but to remove all doubt) mapped by WMAP2 do not agree with those of WMAP1, the CMP is local, not cosmological. There is no way the casually-disconnected regions of the universe can have conspired to change together over the period of a year.
 
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  • #32
Turbot said:
Well, first off, perfect black bodies are the ultimate absorbers and emitters of EM. This is basic optics and basic thermodynamics.

Blackbodies are a simplifying assumption and a limiting case for thermodynamics. There are many things in the universe that are not in thermodynamic equilibrium, and therefore do not emit as blackbodies.


If you have spent any time outside on a clear Maine night in February (especially if you forgot your hat!), you will understand very quickly that the night sky (less the shielding effects of the atmosphere) is a wonderful blackbody absorber/emitter.

No, I don't understand. The spectrum of the "night sky" is not that of a blackbody. I certainly don't understand how you can ascertain that the vacuum absorbs and emits by spending time outside on a "clear Maine night".


It is very easy to understand how the temperature of "empty" space is a pure blackbody curve. It is a little tougher to understand why EM emitted, absorbed, and re-emitted throughout the entire recomination era of the BB can appear to us today as a perfect blackbody curve. This is not an insignificant question, and I welcome explanations.

Light being absorbed and re-emitted many times is exactly the condition needed to form a blackbody spectrum. You can't form it from nothing, the absorbers/emitters must reach a statistical equilibrium before a blackbody curve can be produced.



If we believe that the temperature of space is 2.7K, (as predicted pretty closely by any number of astronomers and physicists that adhered to the steady state model), we should be willing to believe that doppler effects due to the motions of the Earth through the Universe will produce anisotropies in the CMB. The largest anisotropy will be a dipole (not a monopole, Chronos:smile:) resulting from the dominant gross movement of our galaxy or group.

This is correct in both pictures, but relatively trivial.


The remaining anisotropies will be more and more difficult to quantify, as errors in the process of subtracting the major ones multiply, but I firmly believe that they will ultimately be proven to arise from the complex movements of our probes in relation to local space.

If this were true, then different CMB experiments would give different results (particularly the ground-based vs. space-based ones). They don't. There are no statistically significant inconsistencies between WMAP, COBE, Boomerang, etc.


If the small angle anisotropies (let's say even as large as 1 degree, to be exceedingly generous, but to remove all doubt) mapped by WMAP2 do not agree with those of WMAP1, the CMP is local, not cosmological. There is no way the casually-disconnected regions of the universe can have conspired to change together over the period of a year.

Why do you need WMAP2? There have been several experiments that have already produced CMB maps on those scales.
 
  • #33
SpaceTiger said:
Blackbodies are a simplifying assumption and a limiting case for thermodynamics. There are many things in the universe that are not in thermodynamic equilibrium, and therefore do not emit as blackbodies.
Blackbodies are classical examples of heat-sinks (EM-sinks) that can absorb any wavelength of EM and will emit EM with a curve appropriate to their temperatures. Pretty basic. The area under the BB curve is dependent on the temperature of the emitting body and the shape of the curve is very well-defined. We do not have to worry about whether empty space can exhibit black-body behavior. "Empty" (non-radiating with respect to us) space is a pure black body.

As for the CMB, why might we believe that the echo of the big bang can express itself as a black body, since the "echo" should express itself over a fairly large redshift span and over a large span of temperatures?

SpaceTiger said:
No, I don't understand. The spectrum of the "night sky" is not that of a blackbody. I certainly don't understand how you can ascertain that the vacuum absorbs and emits by spending time outside on a "clear Maine night".
I was pointing out that the night sky is a powerful heat sink. Any astonomer can explain this to you. A telescope pointed at the dark sky will cool far more rapidly that you would expect by considering the ambient temperature alone. This is pretty basic.

SpaceTiger said:
Light being absorbed and re-emitted many times is exactly the condition needed to form a blackbody spectrum. You can't form it from nothing, the absorbers/emitters must reach a statistical equilibrium before a blackbody curve can be produced.
Not true. The EM need only be absorbed once and emitted once to produce a black-body spectrum based on the temperature of the emitter. An object can exhibit a black-body spectrum at one temperature, and then can exhibit a different (based on its temperature) black-body spectrum after being heated or cooled to a different temperature.

SpaceTiger said:
If this were true, then different CMB experiments would give different results (particularly the ground-based vs. space-based ones). They don't. There are no statistically significant inconsistencies between WMAP, COBE, Boomerang, etc.
I am not predicting "statistically" significant inconsistencies of gross effects. I predict gross inconsistencies at small angles between WMAP1 and WMAP2.

SpaceTiger said:
Why do you need WMAP2? There have been several experiments that have already produced CMB maps on those scales.
See above. If the same probe cannot give OOM-consistent temperatures on angular resolutions of a degree or so (again, I think I'm being very generous), we must admit that the CMB is local and not cosmological. We need to compare WMAP1 and WMAP2 to settle this. We cannot compare results from probes with different altitudes, different sensors, or even different stabilization techniques. We are looking at differentials on the order of 10 ppm or less in magnitude and perhaps 1 ppm in terms of polarization. If the small-angle anisotropies of WMAP2 do not agree with those observed in WMAP1, there is no possible way (absent instrument error) that the CMB can be cosmological. Huge portions of the Universe that are non-causally-connected cannot possible conspire to change together over a period of one Earth-year.
 
  • #34
Turbot said:
Blackbodies are classical examples of heat-sinks (EM-sinks) that can absorb any wavelength of EM and will emit EM with a curve appropriate to their temperatures. Pretty basic. The area under the BB curve is dependent on the temperature of the emitting body and the shape of the curve is very well-defined. We do not have to worry about whether empty space can exhibit black-body behavior. "Empty" (non-radiating with respect to us) space is a pure black body.

If it's not radiating or absorbing, it isn't a blackbody. That follows from what you said above.


As for the CMB, why might we believe that the echo of the big bang can express itself as a black body, since the "echo" should express itself over a fairly large redshift span and over a large span of temperatures?

Because a redshifted blackbody spectrum retains its blackbody shape. That's all there is to it. I'd prove it to you, but you don't know any math.


I was pointing out that the night sky is a powerful heat sink. Any astonomer can explain this to you. A telescope pointed at the dark sky will cool far more rapidly that you would expect by considering the ambient temperature alone. This is pretty basic.

This is pretty wrong. The "night sky", as you're describing it, does not absorb radiation from the telescope, the telescope just emits the radiation and gets no feedback from its environment. In this sense, the night sky is not a heat sink, but rather the lack of a heat source. Any object left to itself will cool with time because it radiates its energy away. If, at the same time, the environment is giving feedback in the form of radiation, then the cooling process will be slower. That's why your telescope cools more slowly when pointed at a radiating source.


Not true. The EM need only be absorbed once and emitted once to produce a black-body spectrum based on the temperature of the emitter. An object can exhibit a black-body spectrum at one temperature, and then can exhibit a different (based on its temperature) black-body spectrum after being heated or cooled to a different temperature.

I think you need to pick up a good book on statistical mechanics. Equilibrium is not obtained as a result of one event, but is instead the end result of the many complicated interactions in a body (photon absorptions, collisions, etc.). An electromagnetic wave that is emitted from, say, the sun, will impact on the surface of a body (for example, you) and deliver energy to your surface. The particles on your surface will then have higher energies than the particles in your interior. However, because of collisions, vibrations, photon exchanges, etc., the energy will be redistributed throughout your body. A process like this can take a split second, a year, a millenium, or it might not occur at all. We can, however, calculate the approximate time for this process to occur and determine that the early universe should have had no trouble obtaining thermal equilibrium.


I am not predicting "statistically" significant inconsistencies of gross effects. I predict gross inconsistencies at small angles between WMAP1 and WMAP2.

If I understand you, you're saying that the anisotropy on one part of the sky will be inconsistent with the anisotropy on the same part of sky when viewed by a different experiment. However, I'm asking why you're singling out WMAP1 and WMAP2 when the CMB has already been observed at small angles by multiple experiments. For example, you can look at the CMB maps from COBE and WMAP:

http://qonos.princeton.edu/nbond/wmap_cobe.jpg"

Notice how the anisotropies are the same (not just one average) on the scales resolved by COBE. The same is true of the other experiments (such as BOOMERANG) that go to smaller angles.


If the same probe cannot give OOM-consistent temperatures on angular resolutions of a degree or so (again, I think I'm being very generous), we must admit that the CMB is local and not cosmological. We need to compare WMAP1 and WMAP2 to settle this. We cannot compare results from probes with different altitudes, different sensors, or even different stabilization techniques.

Why? If your theory is correct (that the anisotropies are due to movements of the instrument), then these different probes should give different anisotropies for exactly the reasons that you've cited. If the anisotropies aren't different, then your theory is wrong.


If the small-angle anisotropies of WMAP2 do not agree with those observed in WMAP1, there is no possible way (absent instrument error) that the CMB can be cosmological. Huge portions of the Universe that are non-causally-connected cannot possible conspire to change together over a period of one Earth-year.

This is true, and it'll only be about another month before we see this data. However, I don't see any reason why you feel the need to wait. Your theory is already disproven.
 
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  • #35
Blackbodies are classical examples of heat-sinks (EM-sinks) that can absorb any wavelength of EM and will emit EM with a curve appropriate to their temperatures. Pretty basic. The area under the BB curve is dependent on the temperature of the emitting body and the shape of the curve is very well-defined. We do not have to worry about whether empty space can exhibit black-body behavior. "Empty" (non-radiating with respect to us) space is a pure black body.

If it's not radiating or absorbing, it isn't a blackbody. That follows from what you said above.
Sorry for the imprecision (I left you a pretty good opening there) - when I said that "empty" space is a pure black body, I pute quotes around empty because as the Hubble deep-field exposure show us, it will be impossible to find any direction in space from which we are not receiving radiation from embedded sources in addition to the background temperature of space itself (no matter how slight).

As for the CMB, why might we believe that the echo of the big bang can express itself as a black body, since the "echo" should express itself over a fairly large redshift span and over a large span of temperatures?

Because a redshifted blackbody spectrum retains its blackbody shape. That's all there is to it. I'd prove it to you, but you don't know any math.
Well, I do know a "little" math. I also understand that if all the radiation that escaped during recoupling escaped at one time and at one average temperature, the redshifted spectrum of that source would retain its blackbody shape, albeit flattened with its peak shifted redward. The question I have arises from my understanding that in the BB model, recombination happened over a long period of time, with the plasma medium becoming more and more transparent to EM as time went on.

If the CMB is a perfect blackbody, and the peak of its spectrum is not smeared out (broadened) we are left with the uncomfortable concept that the surfact of last scattering is a rigid boundary that "winked off" everywhere in the Universe simultaneously. This clashes (in my feeble mind) with the concept that the BB universe became transparent to EM gradually over an OOM of z.

Gotta work - more later.
 
  • #36
In these forums, this page seems to offer something .. .. .. I'll go post there, perhaps.
 
  • #37
I was pointing out that the night sky is a powerful heat sink. Any astonomer can explain this to you. A telescope pointed at the dark sky will cool far more rapidly that you would expect by considering the ambient temperature alone. This is pretty basic.

This is pretty wrong. The "night sky", as you're describing it, does not absorb radiation from the telescope, the telescope just emits the radiation and gets no feedback from its environment. In this sense, the night sky is not a heat sink, but rather the lack of a heat source. Any object left to itself will cool with time because it radiates its energy away. If, at the same time, the environment is giving feedback in the form of radiation, then the cooling process will be slower. That's why your telescope cools more slowly when pointed at a radiating source.
The telescope is radiating EM to the night sky and is receiving EM from the night sky. The difference is that the net exchange results in the temperature of the 'scope going down very quickly - radiative cooling. The scope will cool much faster if it is pointed at the night sky than if it is left sitting out in the cold with a dew cap on or without a dew cap, but pointing at a building, a row of trees, etc.

Not true. The EM need only be absorbed once and emitted once to produce a black-body spectrum based on the temperature of the emitter. An object can exhibit a black-body spectrum at one temperature, and then can exhibit a different (based on its temperature) black-body spectrum after being heated or cooled to a different temperature.

I think you need to pick up a good book on statistical mechanics. Equilibrium is not obtained as a result of one event, but is instead the end result of the many complicated interactions in a body (photon absorptions, collisions, etc.). An electromagnetic wave that is emitted from, say, the sun, will impact on the surface of a body (for example, you) and deliver energy to your surface. The particles on your surface will then have higher energies than the particles in your interior. However, because of collisions, vibrations, photon exchanges, etc., the energy will be redistributed throughout your body. A process like this can take a split second, a year, a millenium, or it might not occur at all. We can, however, calculate the approximate time for this process to occur and determine that the early universe should have had no trouble obtaining thermal equilibrium.
You missed my point entirely. The complexity of the reactions by which a blackbody attains its temperature has no relation to the spectrum of its radiation. If it is a true blackbody, its spectral curve is defined, and that curve will look the same no matter how many interactions and energy transfers caused the blackbody to have its current temperature, and no matter what the wavelength of the EM that heated it to its current state.
 
  • #38
Turbot said:
Sorry for the imprecision (I left you a pretty good opening there) - when I said that "empty" space is a pure black body, I pute quotes around empty because as the Hubble deep-field exposure show us, it will be impossible to find any direction in space from which we are not receiving radiation from embedded sources in addition to the background temperature of space itself (no matter how slight).

We do indeed see some light at every point that we look, but you can't simply say that the light is coming from space itself, you have to show it. Your argument as it stands right now is circular.


Well, I do know a "little" math. I also understand that if all the radiation that escaped during recoupling escaped at one time and at one average temperature, the redshifted spectrum of that source would retain its blackbody shape, albeit flattened with its peak shifted redward. The question I have arises from my understanding that in the BB model, recombination happened over a long period of time, with the plasma medium becoming more and more transparent to EM as time went on.

I already answered this concern in another thread, but you ignored it. I've noticed that you do that a lot. If you don't understand my explanation, then ask me to elaborate, don't pretend it didn't happen.
 
  • #39
Should one really be taking advice from a 25 year old, with 34 years of experiance?

Albeit an Intelligent 25 year old, but 35 years of experience in 25 years seems, well, way past anyones ability, even if they started at DAY one! there Birthday.
 
  • #40
Turbot said:
The telescope is radiating EM to the night sky and is receiving EM from the night sky. The difference is that the net exchange results in the temperature of the 'scope going down very quickly - radiative cooling. The scope will cool much faster if it is pointed at the night sky than if it is left sitting out in the cold with a dew cap on or without a dew cap, but pointing at a building, a row of trees, etc.

The only difference between this and your previous incorrect argument is that you allowed the night sky to radiate a little bit. I assure you that it still doesn't support your theory that the vacuum is absorbing radiation from the telescope and obtaining a temperature.


You missed my point entirely. The complexity of the reactions by which a blackbody attains its temperature has no relation to the spectrum of its radiation.

Well, of course that depends on how one defines "complexity", but the interactions have to be "complex" enough such that collisions occur throughout the entire gas and for a long enough time that the energy can be smoothly distributed. If these conditions are not met, the spectrum won't be a blackbody.


If it is a true blackbody, its spectral curve is defined, and that curve will look the same no matter how many interactions and energy transfers caused the blackbody to have its current temperature, and no matter what the wavelength of the EM that heated it to its current state.

Actually, no, that's not true. If I start with a blackbody at, say, 300 K, and change its environment such that it's not absorbing the same amount and/or spectrum of radiation, then its temperature will change. This transition takes a finite amount of time (sometimes a very long time) and, in the meantime, the spectrum of the body will not have the usual characteristic shape.
 
  • #41
Lapin Dormant said:
Should one really be taking advice from a 25 year old, with 34 years of experiance?

What "advice"? I'm showing him that his science is wrong. If you see a problem with my arguments, please share with us your wisdom. Otherwise, I don't see what that has to do with anything.
 
  • #42
SpaceTiger said:
I already answered this concern in another thread, but you ignored it. I've noticed that you do that a lot. If you don't understand my explanation, then ask me to elaborate, don't pretend it didn't happen.
That is advice, so please to help me, and any other reader{s} of this, tell me {us?} where you have previoulsy answered his question?

Thank you.

Have you ever done any studies of statistical propensities of Falsifications?
 
  • #43
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  • #44
Thank you.

The other part, no, no more on that, it is simply a sort of Hobby of mine, people studies, and analysis.
 

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