Heat death of the universe and the 3rd law of thermodynamics

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of the heat death of the universe in relation to the third law of thermodynamics. Participants explore the concepts of entropy and temperature as the universe expands and approaches a state of thermal equilibrium, questioning whether these conditions contradict established thermodynamic principles.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how the temperature can approach absolute zero while entropy approaches infinity, suggesting a potential contradiction with the third law of thermodynamics.
  • Another participant argues that the statement about entropy always increasing is not necessarily true, providing an example of a monotonically increasing function with a finite limit.
  • A different perspective suggests that heat death does not imply zero temperature, but rather a state of thermal equilibrium, which may not equate to absolute zero.
  • One participant expresses uncertainty about evaluating temperature and entropy in a scenario where the universe reaches heat death with minimal particles, proposing that both values may not be zero or infinity.
  • Another participant asserts that the third law of thermodynamics may not be applicable to the universe as a whole, citing the influence of gravity and quantum mechanics on entropy in the far future.
  • A further challenge is raised regarding the assumption that all matter will be in the form of perfect crystals in the distant future, questioning the contribution of other forms of energy to total entropy.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between temperature and entropy in the context of the universe's heat death, with no consensus reached on whether this scenario contradicts the third law of thermodynamics.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in applying classical thermodynamic laws to the universe, particularly regarding the roles of gravity and quantum mechanics, as well as the complexities involved in defining temperature and entropy in extreme conditions.

Robert Leslie
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If the universe keeps expanding and eventually ends in a "big freeze" or heat death, does this contradict the third law of thermodynamics?

The third law of thermodynamics states that a crystal at absolute zero has zero entropy. Since the entropy of the universe can never decrease, as the age of the universe approaches infinity, so will the entropy. However as the universe reaches heat death, and the stars burn out all their nuclear fuel, the temperature will also begin to approach absolute zero.

How can the temperature approach zero, and the entropy approach infinity at the same time? Does this contradict the third law of thermodynamics?
 
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Robert Leslie said:
Since the entropy of the universe can never decrease, as the age of the universe approaches infinity, so will the entropy.
This is not true. You can have a monotonically increasing function that has a finite limit. Example: ##\lim_{x\to\infty} \arctan(x) = \pi/2##. Also, a constant function does not decrease, but it does not go to infinity either.

Also, heat death does not imply zero temperature, although that is what you will get if the the Universe expands eternally. It is just what happens when the Universe comes to thermal equilibrium.
 
In a scenario where heat death is the state where the universe contains one particle per cosmic horizon, I am not sure there is a good way to evaluate either temperature or entropy. If heat death is some other scenario, I think both will have values that are not zero and not infinity respectively.
 
Robert Leslie said:
If the universe keeps expanding and eventually ends in a "big freeze" or heat death, does this contradict the third law of thermodynamics?
Yes and no.

The third law of thermodynamics is a classical law that doesn't take into account either gravity or quantum mechanics. So yes, it is literally true that it contradicts the third law, but the reason it does so is that it is invalid to apply the third law of thermodynamics to the universe as a whole.

In the far future, when the universe is essentially empty, its entropy will be given by the area of the cosmological horizon, which will be huge.
 
Robert Leslie said:
How can the temperature approach zero, and the entropy approach infinity at the same time? Does this contradict the third law of thermodynamics?

How do you deduce that all matter in the universe of far future will be in the form of perfect defect-free crystals? And even if it were, doesn't the energy that is in the form of photons and gravitational waves also contribute to the total entropy?
 

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