Help Required: Medical Physics

[Adnan Jatt]

Dear All,

My question is regarding entry into Medical Physics field. Please help me with that.

I really want to study Medical Physics in Master and start a career as Clinical Medical Physicist. But I honestly don't know what to do.

Background:
I am from Pakistan, and a recent BS Physics graduate with thesis on spectroscopic study of Laser Produced Plasma. Now, I am teaching at a college as part of my 1 year internship.
Research Experience: No papers published.
CGPA: 2.6/4 (72% marks)
GRE General : 307/340
completed German Langauge Course: level A2

Problem:
There is one institution in Pakistan, who offer MS Med Phy, but that degree is not accredited by IOMP and IAEA. So enrolling there is not an option for me.
I did apply for Masters in RMIT Australia and Uni of Wollongong, but honestly I think i don't have any chance of securing a scholarship. I am financially unable to pursue studies on my own.

My CV is not strong, but anyway I have applied for admission in Abdus Salam ICTP's MS Medical Physics for Jan 2019 - 2020. I have yet to hear from them.

Ultimately I have decided to enroll in MS Physics here in Pakistan in Fall 2018 - 2019 session and later enrolling in a Ph.D Medical Physics abroad (USA, Australia, Canada etc) after completing MS Physics.

Once I enroll in a Ph.D Med Phys abroad , I will be effectively burning my bridges (no jobs in Pakistan) and will have to look for jobs in the host country..
I am thinking of getting started on my own in Medical Physics. I mean reading books on my own (please suggest me some) and learning Python etc... After that I am planning to become an online-member of any good Medical Physics Professor's research team and try to publish in that way. Can this approach work?

Questions:
Please tell me what path should I take?
1. MS Physics (in Pakistan) -> Ph.D Med Phy (Abroad)
2. MS Physics (in Pakistan) -> ICTP's MS Med Phy

Furthermore, how can I secure a job (trainee or something semi-permanent - although I would love a permanent one) right after graduation in UK, USA, Canada, Australia, NZ, Germany (Europe), Japan, or Russia? Is a Masters degree enough for initial job or do I need any board certification as ABR certification?
How good is ICTP's MS Medical Physics for entry level jobs and professional skills?

What is the process that I will have to go through to become a high-earning and truly professional highly-seeked by hospitals Medical Physicist?

And finally, what skills + research + experience do i need to be able to secure a scholarship in Ph.D Med Phy?
Is Ph.D a good degree for entry into clinical Med Phy or a Masters is better for that matter?

I am already 26 years of age, so will age have a detrimental factor in job hunting and admissions?

My main worry is a starting job in Med Phy field. Here in Pakistan, the jobs of Physicists are scarce with salaries in ranges of 4344 US$ to 12,000 US$ per year. And Medical Physics is unheard of in the hospitals here (most of my extended family members are professional doctors). I am looking at Medical Physics as a career path with good salary and a branch of Physics where I can apply and use my capabilities.

I forgot to mention, i am interested in Radiation Therapy (Radiation Oncology) core.

Please guide me with the path I should take..

I will be extremely thankful.

Regards,
Adnan Jatt.

 

[jedishrfu]

Here’s a US site that talks about certification requirements

https://www.theabr.org/medical-physics

I think you should seek out a hospital that employs a medical physicist and talk with him or her about your plans or find what schools he or she went to and then contact those schools to see what’s needed.

Everything is different in each country and so while you might be able to see what is defined as medical physics, you will still need to do some legwork to find out what that means in your country.

 

[jedishrfu]

Here’s another US reference that shows what’s needed from an academic point of view

https://medicalphysics.duke.edu/medical_physics

 

[Choppy]

Unfortunately I'm not too familiar with medical physics in Pakistan. I have one acquaintance from Pakistan who did his PhD here in Canada, worked over in Pakistan for a couple of years, and eventually came back here and got a full time medical physicist position.

The first real obstacle I see for you is that with a GPA of 2.4, you're not going to be competitive for any North American medical physics graduate programs. The cut off for admissions is usually about 3.0, and in most cases admissions are competitive, with students who get in having GPAs of around 3.5 or higher. Research experience can make someone with a low three competitive with mid-range threes, but that's about it. I'm not sure that even if you get a master's degree it will change this. In Canadian PhD programs, you would be competing against students who also have master's degrees and very high grades.

That said, if you do manage it to get into an accredited PhD program, I doubt you would be burning any bridges in your home country. And you would also be able to compete for positions abroad. I can't speak to the ICTP program specifically. But if you really want to become a medical physicist, this would probably be the route I would aim for, and that will require improving your grades.

Age won't be a factor in the job hunt, as least not in North America. Not everyone has a linear path that goes high school -> undergrad -> gradschool -> residency -> career. In fast in most case there is at least some divergence along the way - year off to travel, students changing undergrad majors, taking time off to work and save money for school, having children, post-doctoral work, illness... in most cases qualified applicants for medical physicist positions are well into their thirties and at that stage of the game no one cares about whether you're 32 or 38.

I hope this helps. Good luck.

 

[Choppy]

From PM conversation...

Actually I am asking that, I am planning to do a MS Physics (general) here in Pak and hopefully earn 3.5+/4 CGPA in it, and publish 2,3 research papers as well (probably in Spectroscopic techniques and laser produced plasmas). Along with that I intent to give GRE-Physics. And with 1- year teaching internship, how much this step (of MS, Research, Gre phy) will benefit me in securing a Ph.D position with scholarship in America or Canada?

Well obviously all of this would improve your chances. Make sure you do your homework in places that you apply though. Some schools are very rigid in their policies. They compare all applicants based on undergraduate marks so as to have a level playing field and in many cases unless that undergraduate GPA is above a 3.0, the application won't even get forwarded to the departmental admissions committee for assessment. I'm not trying to be negative about it, but that's just how these things tend to work.

Other factors to consider... does the MSc program qualify you for the PhD program. In come cases a clinically-oriented MSc won't be sufficient for a more traditional physics PhD because there will be questions about whether or not you would have sufficient core physics background (i.e. classical mechanics, E&M, quantum, thermodynamics etc.) to pass the qualifying examination. You should be okay in the more clinically oriented PhD programs though.

Also remember admission is pretty competitive. These programs turn away a lot of qualified applicants just because there are others who look better, at least on paper.

And please tell me what are the job prospects around the world for a Clinical Medical Physicist? I mean after Ph.D? I don't have a specific choice of country for initial job, America Canada UK Australia NZ Russia Turkey Brazil all would do.

It's also important to remember that after the PhD you have to get into a residency program. That's two years of clinical training. Sometimes you can get into these after an MSc, but the PhDs tend to have a better shot. And the reality at the moment is that in North America we seem to be producing more medical physics graduates (MSc and PhD) than there are residencies. It's not a lot more. But there are on the order of 300 graduates every year and about 100 - 150 residencies available, if I remember.

Then you get to write your board exams. That's not a guaranteed pass by any stretch of the imagination. I think when I did mine a decade ago the passing rate was only in the ballpark of 50%.

Once you have certification, it's still a competitive job market these days. I know a few guys who've passed their board exams and who have excellent skill sets who don't have permanent jobs. They're working, but doing locums. The more you're willing to move, and if you're flexible with how much you're paid, the better it is. For example of friend of mine just move to the UK and was telling me that over there, there is a much higher demand for the skill set, but they pay isn't nearly what it is in the US.

 

[Adnan Jatt]

Thank You sir @Jedshrefu and Sir @Choppy.. Actually I am pretty flexible with the choice of country where I would try to get a job, and also with the salary. Here in Pakistan, two hospitals had employed some MS Physics students as full time Medical Physicist, but that was 15 years ago. I didnt see any other open position for the last many years..

So that is why I have kept myself pretty flexible... Actually I applied at PIEAS (Pakistan Institute of Engineering and Applied Sciences) for Medical Physics fellowship. I did not make the cut, but one Medical Physicist present in the interview panel had a talk with me at length. He told me that the degree of PIEAS is not recognised in the world. And if I get to do IOMP recognised degree from any English speaking country, I can pretty much work in any country where there is a vacancy.. Also he went on to say that this is a new field with severe shortage of skilled workforce and jobs are good, for research this field is also excellent..

This was my first introduction with Medical Physics. So I am pursuing this mostly for jobs, as I will have to feed my family .

I then thought that, after a MS Med Phy (ICTP's program) I will look for Trainee-Medical Physicst positions in developed countries. But honestly I don't know will I need any board regulation for working anywhere in the world.

Surely, as per my research, in USA I need to be in a residency after MS/Ph.D and then pass ABR exams. But job market is competitive in USA, as you told me.

But sometimes I read that jobs are plentiful and skilled people scarce and sometimes jobs are scarce, all over the world. So that confuses me.

Now one question, Uni of canterbury (New Zealand) is offering Clinical Based MS Medi Phy and 3 year traineeship/residency/registrar training after that. Surely it is competitive, but is that degree good enough for working in USA or Canada in later future?

I am in this field for the good salary, more job prospects (as compared to Geophy or mainstream phy here in Pak) and relative job security. So my main aim is Clinical MS or Clinical Ph.D .. I am not much into research at the moment, atleast not until I establish myself in the job market as professional.

From PM conversation...Well obviously all of this would improve your chances. Make sure you do your homework in places that you apply though. Some schools are very rigid in their policies. They compare all applicants based on undergraduate marks so as to have a level playing field and in many cases unless that undergraduate GPA is above a 3.0, the application won't even get forwarded to the departmental admissions committee for assessment. I'm not trying to be negative about it, but that's just how these things tend to work.
...
, there is a much higher demand for the skill set, but they pay isn't nearly what it is in the US.

 

[Adnan Jatt]

And there is another certification board, International Medical Physics Certification Board (part of IOMP). If one get certified by them by giving their exams, how are his chances to work in most English speaking and European countries?

 

[Choppy]

Now one question, Uni of canterbury (New Zealand) is offering Clinical Based MS Medi Phy and 3 year traineeship/residency/registrar training after that. Surely it is competitive, but is that degree good enough for working in USA or Canada in later future?

I didn't see anything on their website about registrar (resident) training that's included as a part of the program. It's a pretty respectable school though. The general rule with this kind of question is to try and look up statistics on their graduates. Are they passing their board exams and where are they ending up? In New Zealand I believe certification of medical physicists comes through the https://www.acpsem.org.au/whatacpsemdoes/certification-registration. And generally that's accepted on par with the ABR or other certifying bodies (in some geographic locations, a specific certification is required though).

And there is another certification board, International Medical Physics Certification Board (part of IOMP). If one get certified by them by giving their exams, how are his chances to work in most English speaking and European countries?

Similar hear. I think the IOMP certification is relatively new, but I would expect it's also accepted on par with certification from other bodies in most places. The save caveats as above apply though. Some places want specific certification though. People in the field know, however, that if a candidate has demonstrated that he or she can be certified, it's usually a reasonably safe bet that they can get any specific certification needed.

But sometimes I read that jobs are plentiful and skilled people scarce and sometimes jobs are scarce, all over the world. So that confuses me.

A lot depends on geography, timing, and an individual candidate's flexibility. As a general rule, always be skeptical of claims of plentiful high-paying jobs. Markets tend to be efficient. Where there are good jobs to be had, there will be a lot of people interested in them. And unfortunately the reality for someone deciding to go into this field is that they length of time that it takes to go from student to certified physicist is long enough that there's no guarantee the market will be the same from when you start to when you are ready to work. And there are booms and busts in this field.