Here we go with the friendly fire again

[Adam]

RAF plane hit by US missile
By Ed Johnson
March 23, 2003

A MISSING Royal Air Force aircraft returning from an operation in the Gulf was shot down today by a US Patriot missile battery, a US military official said.
http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,6175368%255E25777,00.html

Now, just so you know, all aircraft allied with the USA are sending out an IFF signal which a radar operator can not miss unless he/she is not paying any attention at all.

 

[Lifegazer]

Originally posted by Adam
Now, just so you know, all aircraft allied with the USA are sending out an IFF signal which a radar operator can not miss unless he/she is not paying any attention at all.

There might have been a fault with the electronics?

 

[Adam]

A plane would not be allowed to take off in a war zone with a malfunctioning IFF transponder. However, it is possible the thing was damaged from AA fire. I doubt it though.

 

[Nicool003]

well if that is true how exactly would you know? are you in the military? are you a colonel, general, military electronics enginer?

Could it have been a malfunction not in the plane but in the patriot?

 

[Adam]

Yes, I was in the military. RAN, combat systems operator, top marks from the Surface Warfare School.

 

[Nicool003]

Let me correct the last post then. The U.S military. Things are different in every country and there could easily have been a malfunction.

Did you ever deal specifically with Patriot missle systems? (this isn't part of the argument about the accident. I'm just curious)

 

[Nicool003]

Is it also possible that the malfunction was caused by the patriots radar being damaged somehow? After all, Iraq launched several missles at Kuwait and it could have just fired thinking it as a missle. It wouldn't have to have eben a big problem, just a small malfunction that caused it.

 

[Adam]

I was involved only with the Harpoon missiles system. However, certain principles remain the same across all systems.

The IFF is a separate device attached to the radar system. It gives a number to the radar display identifying the aerial contact as friendly or not.

Possibilities of what went wrong:

The plane would not have flown with a faulty IFF transponder. If may have been damaged in flight.

The Partiot controller's system had a faulty IFF reciever.

The Patriot controller somehow had his IFF reciever turned off.

The Patriot controller ignored the IFF or was too stupid to realize what his display was showing him.

 

[damgo]

If you were in the military, I'm sure you know just how confused things can get. For example, right after the invasion began, a US Apache helicopter missiled and destroyed a US tank... people get scared and confused, accidents happen. :(

 

[Adam]

Most of the time those Patriot crews are sitting there in the desert doing nothing at all.

This reminds me of the time in Desert Storm when an Apache helicopter took out two British APCs, killing 9 soldiers I think. There was no confusion. The Apache guys simply didn't bother checking their target. They acted like it was a video game.

 

[Zargawee]

LoL ... 3 helicopters and one tank Were destroyed accidently ?
Come On ! Is US technology that bad to let two helicopters hit together ?

It's Obvios , USA is not telling it's poeple that they are being defeated by Iraqi army !

 

[Adam]

During Desert Storm, US Apaches attacked two British APCs, killing 9 British troops.

During Korea, British infantry fleeing a Chinese push headed toward a US tank division for assistance, and the tanks opened fire on them.

Recently a US fighter bombed four Canadian troops.

In Afghanistan, the USA killed some New Zealand SAS during a training exercise.

This time in Iraq, US marines have been having a long-running battle with a US tank. A US Patriot missile took out a Tornado.

Is US technology that bad to let two helicopters hit together ?

It's not that US technology is bad. It's that the training is not quite as good as it should be, as they tend to rely too much on that nifty technology.

 

[Zargawee]

If The wrong actions were less than that , we would believe it .

But when You hear some impossible wrong actions such as two holicopters hitting each other , this look like lying .

and when you hear that all the US and UK ( Maybe in future austrailians ) soldeires are only dying by their fire ?

 

[Adam]

I don't know what they've been telling you where you are, but we are NOT being told that only Americans are killing Americans. There have been several large battles (large for Iraq-US conflicts), and quite a few Americans have been killed and injured. One battle saw I think 4 US troops dead and about 50 injured in the space of a few hours.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2878495.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2878521.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2877349.stm

 

[Zargawee]

Ramsfelld said that there are no injuries or dead poeple or prisoners yesterday .
And as we see , he didn't talk to the poeple yet.

 

[Nicool003]

Most of the time those Patriot crews are sitting there in the desert doing nothing at all.

Except that this wasn't "most of the time" They have shot down MANY missles that saddam threw at the Kuwaiti people!

LoL ... 3 helicopters and one tank Were destroyed accidently ?

That IS NOT FUNNY! PEOPLE DIED! HELLO!

And last time I checked the U.S was one of the leaders in technology but let's not get into that.

And by the way. I would not be surprised if our helicopters were not sabatoged. It hasn't been in the media where you guys live probably but there was a malfunction in a black hawk helicopter in New York. All the people but two died. Then there was ANOTHER crash in Iraq in which all the people lived. Then about two days ago yet ANOTHER helicopter crashed and I believe everybody died. I don't think this could have all happened in the period of a week. I do not think that is a coincidence. They all just happened to have mechanical failures?

Recently a US fighter bombed four Canadian troops.

That was no one's fault. The Canadians were firing at something (I think they were practicing) and the U.S pilot thought they were the enemy.

 

[damgo]

Probably they had mechanical failures, or the pilots made an error. It's not always big news, but military personnel are regularly killed in plane/copter crashes even in peacetime. Given the huge number of missions they're flying, and in actual combat zone now, it doesn't seem out of proportion to me.

 

[kyleb]

sometimes it is because they are all cranked out on drugs that are illiegal for most of us:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/DailyNews/2020_pilotpills021220.html

 

[Nicool003]

That is just a mean thing to say.

 

[ranyart]

There are reports circulating that the US Soldier that threw 3 grenades into tents containing US commanding officers, Killing one person and injuring 15 Others was in response to Arab 'bounty' purse being put up for anyone who kills US soldiers? with the greater bounty being placed on officers rather than combat soldiers.

There are also stories that in some middle east countries, before the actual invasion started, a number of soldiers were offered large amounts of cash, if they could sabotage the american effort? one perticular story was that some US soldiers have connections to the world 'Drugs' trade, and due to commitments back in the USA, they have elected to abuse their position in the army, to further their Drugs carreers?

I personaly cannot see this as happenning, but who knows..its a crazy world..and there are some things people will do for 'money' more than they would do for anything else.

 

[kyleb]

Originally posted by Nicool003
That is just a mean thing to say.

mean? in the sense of "earnest" i suppose so. but as for mean, as in "selfish in a petty way, unkind"; i think that applies to the ones who make pilots chose to either take such mind altering substances or give up their carriers, and then push the blame on to those same pilots when their actions are in line with the documented effects of the mind altering substances in question. that is mean to the pilots, and even more so to the ones who die because of such things.

 

[Adam]

Originally posted by Nicool003

That was no one's fault. The Canadians were firing at something (I think they were practicing) and the U.S pilot thought they were the enemy.

The Canadians were in an absolutely authorised live fire exercise, cleared and promulgated. The Americans were indeed at fault.

 

[Adam]

Originally posted by Nicool003
That is just a mean thing to say.

It's true. The USA pumps its pilots up on speed going out on missions. There was quite a big cafuffle over it after they shot those Canadians.

 

[russ_watters]

Is US technology that bad to let two helicopters hit together ?

Actually, those were BRITISH helicopters. Thats quite simply a training failure. Catch-22 of training: the harder you train, the fewer die in combat but the more die in training.

 

[Nicool003]

The Canadians were in an absolutely authorised live fire exercise, cleared and promulgated. The Americans were indeed at fault.

Does that mean that EVERY American in the Navy, Army, Marines, Air Force, and special ops people heard that? And who authorized the excercise? Were all allies informed?

 

[Adam]

Originally posted by Nicool003
Does that mean that EVERY American in the Navy, Army, Marines, Air Force, and special ops people heard that? And who authorized the exercise? Were all allies informed?

Generally if you have a live fire exercise, it is "broadcast" through channels to all allied units in the area. All operators would know of the exercise occurring. And in fact the US operators in the area DID know what was going on, and ordered the pilot twice not to shoot. But he did anyway.

 

[Nicool003]

I heard that the pilot was ordered not to shoot I believe he shot anyways because he thought he was being fired on.

 

[Nicool003]

Oh and by the way adam the U.S isn't the only one to have friendly fire incidents (although you try to make it seem that way) The British shot themselves down accidently the other day so I suppose your going to say the same thing about their military..?

 

[Adam]

Yep, a British Challenger tank shot another one. Bloody stupid.

And a US F16 shot a Patriot battery after the Patriot system locked onto him with its fire control system.

 

[Mulder]

Accidents happen. It's nothing new.