How Can Gravity and Electromagnetism Be Unified Through a Rank 1 Field Theory?

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The discussion centers on a proposed unified field theory that combines gravity and electromagnetism (EM) into a single rank 1 field using a specific Lagrange density. The theory suggests that both forces can be derived from the same 4-potential, leading to a new formulation of the field equations that can reduce to Maxwell's equations in certain conditions. The proposed model is consistent with weak field tests of gravity and predicts differences in light bending compared to general relativity, which could be tested in future experiments. Additionally, the theory addresses the evolution of electric and mass charges under different configurations, emphasizing the linear nature of the proposed framework. Overall, this unified approach aims to reconcile the fundamental differences between gravity and EM while remaining consistent with established physical principles.
  • #481
The binary pulsar data

Hello Karl and Lawrence:

Thanks for the references to the double pulsar system. Looks like they expect to get a few more terms. From 2003:
[PLAIN said:
http://www.atnf.csiro.au/research/highlights/2003/manchester/manchester.html]In[/PLAIN] the next few years, we expect to measure several more relativistic effects, some dependent on higher-order terms in the post-Newtonian expansion. These will provide the tightest constraints yet on theories of gravity in the strong-field regime.

From the paper itself in 2006:
In particular, we have measured omega dot so precisely (i.e., to a relative precision approaching 10-5) that we expect corrections at the 2 PN level to be observationally significant within a few years.

That is the level where GR and GEM differ. The error on the 2 PN level would have to be under 10%. Then assumptions put into the models would matter.

I know the gamma is the same for GR and GEM (if I am thinking about the right gamma). I don't know what GEM predicts for omega dot, s or r. More work to be done.

Perhaps my skimming was too quick, but I don't see how this particular binary pulsar rules out the exponential metric at this time. This is better data and is good news, but there is enough data fitting required to cast doubt on the ability to distinguish subtly different metrics.

Doug
 
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  • #482
It says the orbital velocity is about 0.1% of the speed of light, or 1 part in 1000. Second level PN would be 1 part in a million. According to their data, GR restricts the masses of the stars at an accuracy of 1.337+/-0.004 which is fairly inaccurate at around 1 part in 334.

I think your theory's still alive.
 
  • #483
Future data

Hello Carl:

Thanks for confirming my reading, despite spelling your name incorrectly. There are 10 parameters in the first order parameterized post-Newtonian system, with \gamma=\beta=1 for GR, and zero for the other 8. Other proposals have non-zero values, and my impression was those sorts of proposals are at risk of being shown to be wrong by data such as this. For the GEM proposal, all ten of these parameters are the same as for GR. The exponential metric is a kissing cousin of the Schwarzschild metric.

The folks doing these observations think they should get to second order PPN accuracy sooner rather than never. It is not clear how they can rule out metrics for fully conservative theories whose coefficients are not significantly different. I will need to watch for further developments in this area.

Doug
 
  • #484
Check this out. (I have no idea if it's accurate.)

OJ 287: New Testing Ground for General Relativity and Beyond
C. Sivaram, March 14, 2008

The supermassive short period black hole binary OJ287 is discussed as a new precision testing ground for general relativity and alternate gravity theories. Like in the case of binary pulsars, the relativistic gravity effects are considerably larger than in the solar system. For instance the observed orbital precession is forty degrees per period. The gravitational radiation energy losses are comparable to typical blazar electromagnetic radiation emission and it is about ten orders larger than that of the binary pulsar with significant orbit shrinking already apparent in the light curves. This already tests Einstein gravity to a few percent for objects at cosmological distances. Constraints on alternate gravity theories as well as possible detection of long term effects of dark matter and dark energy on this system are described.

http://arxiv.org/abs/0803.2077

P.S. I'm getting huge numbers of hits on my various websites the last 6 hours due to interest in the flat space gravitation theory of Lasenby, Doran, and Gull, and the implications this has for Painleve coordinates. Their theory of gravity is identical to GR to all orders. I don't think GR is accurate to all orders; my interest in their theory is cause it's based on Dirac's gamma matrices and fits into elementary particles really well.
 
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  • #485
Unknown metrics for binary pulsars

Hello Carl:

How far can I go with the exponential metric?
Clint Eastwood said:
A man has to know his [metric's] limitations.

When I derived the metric, I assumed the source was static, spherically symmetric, and not rotating. Zero out of three will be right for a binary pulsar. Those sources are dynamic! They are spinning faster than Dorothy Hamill on fast forward. Since the source is binary, the spherical symmetry is out too. I must disqualify the exponential metric from the competition.

It took me several years before I found a derivation of the precession of the perihelion of Mercury that was explicit enough for me to understand with much work (Sean Carroll's notes were my guide). Most people deal with tough issues using a 12 step program, but it took me 24 steps to get to the 42.8"/century. At several important steps, one had to assume that the precession of the perihelion was super tiny. If not, the math becomes a nightmare. The standard derivation of the perihelion shift will go out the window. I have no sense of how to deal with a system with a strong perihelion shift. I recall reading the befuddlement applies to professionals too.

One assumption I am sensitive to is the 'static' assumption. Near a body of mass so dense that 2 GM/c^2 R \approx 1, that bit of spacetime will be jumping with things moving fast. Long before we reach a singularity, Nature will need to have a metric that has an hbar or time in it. In other words, the exponential metric will not apply in the region that many people have decided to study with the Schwarzschild metric, the proverbial black hole. Long before the singularity, a radically new metric will be needed for gravity sources. If Nature does work with a significantly different metric (one with t or hbar), then no work on black holes to date will survive that switch. Oops, that will not be popular.

Doug
 
  • #486
sweetser said:
Hello Lawrence:

The cited paper by Clifford Will is not relevant to your assertion that "at least the metric you claim above, has been falsified". What Will does in that paper is try to connect the post-Newtonian math machinery to what folks do in numerical relativity for the final few cycles of collapse of binary systems. There are so many assumptions that go into those models - big ones like the correct field equations for gravity are the Einstein field equations - that zero of this article has to do with the first seven coefficients of the Taylor series expansion for the metric of gravity. He is playing guessing games with eccentricities and M/R errors.
Doug

The analysis is essentially the same at any stage in the inspiral. C Will is doing a bit more than playing guessing games.

sweetser said:
The light bending calculation was done for GEM in post #351. Light bends a little more than what is predicted by GR, but the differences is only 9.1% according the the calculation in the post (11.69-10.96/10.96). The fact that light can bend at all in the proposal is why I have discussed the coupling term at length in this thread. One has to show spin 2 symmetry in both the coupling term and the field strength tensor term.

The third test is the precession of the perihelion of Mercury, which I did in post #233. It took me along time to get all the details of that one right, 24 steps in all.

Per Will's request, I have not forwarded my draft paper to him. There is a rank 1 theory involving gravity that meets his basic criteria not referenced in his review.

Doug

C. Will is not interested in testing alternatives to GR. He tends to stick to the basic paradigm of gravity.

It is not possible to argue against on theory on the basis of another theory. Yet your idea of "symmetric" curvature terms or bundles simply does not make much mathematical sense. It is not applicable in Riemannian geometry or any differential geometry. There are graded structures on noncommutative geometries and the like, but this is not what you are advancing.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #487
CarlB said:
Check this out. (I have no idea if it's accurate.)

OJ 287: New Testing Ground for General Relativity and Beyond
C. Sivaram, March 14, 2008

The supermassive short period black hole binary OJ287 is discussed as a new precision testing ground for general relativity and alternate gravity theories. Like in the case of binary pulsars, the relativistic gravity effects are considerably larger than in the solar system. For instance the observed orbital precession is forty degrees per period. The gravitational radiation energy losses are comparable to typical blazar electromagnetic radiation emission and it is about ten orders larger than that of the binary pulsar with significant orbit shrinking already apparent in the light curves. This already tests Einstein gravity to a few percent for objects at cosmological distances. Constraints on alternate gravity theories as well as possible detection of long term effects of dark matter and dark energy on this system are described.

http://arxiv.org/abs/0803.2077

P.S. I'm getting huge numbers of hits on my various websites the last 6 hours due to interest in the flat space gravitation theory of Lasenby, Doran, and Gull, and the implications this has for Painleve coordinates. Their theory of gravity is identical to GR to all orders. I don't think GR is accurate to all orders; my interest in their theory is cause it's based on Dirac's gamma matrices and fits into elementary particles really well.

I wrote five years ago or time back a Found Phys paper on something similar to this.

I have not reread this literature on this matter, which clearly has advanced since last year. Frankly I don't have all the time in the world to check this out. Save it to say for a number of reasons I strongly suspect the GEM hypothesis is incorrect. It does not make much mathematical (differential geometric) sense, and I suspect that this work with orbiting pairs of compact bodies in ever tighter bounded gravitational wells will provide further tests on GR. To be honest as a classical theory I think Einstein's GR is completely spot on.

The deviations in general relativity is likely at orders when scales approach \sqrt{G\hbar/c^3} or the Planck length. There is I think an sort of equivalent breakdown on the cosmological scale. Our first hint of this with the quantum realm is with the Hawking result on black hole radiation. The other is with some curious results with the cosmological constant and the recent discovery of "eternal inflation."

The Hawking-Unruh effect comes about because in curved spacetime a basis of states in one local inertial frame can't be unitarily defined in another frame. So given a fixed spacetime classical background a basis of states in one region are related to a basis of states in another region by a transformation that is not unitary. This is the Bogoliubov transformation. So in a simple quantum model of states in one inertial frame, directed in and out of an event horizon, become mixed when transformed to another frame. So the lowering operator for the ingoing state in one frame becomes mixed with the raising operator for an outgoing state in another frame. This process is due to nonlocal entanglements across event horizons/

With quantum gravity we no longer have a fixed spacetime background. The path integral is a summation over a range of possible metric configurations. We might think of the rapidity or the hyperbolic functions of the Bogoliubov transformations as being elements summed over in the path integral, where each particular one determines a particular "history." So the Bogoliubov algebra is not just a transformation principle for a quantum field theory in a curved spacetime, but represents a particular history in the path integral and the nonunitary equivalence of vacua. Hence a set of Bogoliubov algebras might be thought of as related to a set of all possible holonomies for spacetime configurations, which are the variables for quantum gravity functional. These holonomies are defined on spacetimes with noncompact group structure and there are big issues with the classification of loop group spaces. In particular the Berger classification of such groups determined by affine connections does not entirely operate here. This is related to the problem that there are not general Cauchy sequences which can be constructed for connections on a space with a noncompact group structure. Such a Cauchy sequence involves differences between connections and hence is associated with curvatures. The inability to define such sequences means that there is a loss of information or a breakdown in an isometry between curvatures and the holonomic structure of the space.

So this gets to the question of dark energy and dark matter. A cosmology with a nonzero cosmological constant, or what is likely a parameter set into a constant (or approximately constant) value by the inflaton or dilaton in a spin(4,2)~\sim~su(2,2) model, is one where in general there is no unitarily equivalency between states in all regions of the cosmology. Even if the spatial surface is flat the accelerated expansion of the cosmology means that there is no such equivalency, and this comes about because there is no Killing vector K which when it acts on the energy KE = const. Without a Killing vector of this sort it means there is no isometry in the spacetime which maintains a constant energy on all paths in the cosmology. So the unitarity inequivalence of vacua in the earliest universe, where a vacua of unitary states is defined on a region >~ L_p in a superposition of other such vacua on about the same scale, is frozen into the classical cosmology after inflation. In a more general setting the Coleman-Mandula theorem is then a local principle. This gives the maximal set of symmetries of the S-matrix as the (0,~1/2)\oplus(1/2,~0) spinorial Lorentz group for external symmetry, an internal symmetry [A_i,~A_j]~=~c_{ijk}A_k, and the discrete CPT symmetry. The "maximal" extension on this is called supersymmetry. A cosmology with a non-zero cosmological constant necessarily means this is a local law, it does not apply globally. This is likely a source for what we call dark energy.


Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #488
Big problems with gravity

Hello Lawrence:

In Will's paper, he does not know what the eccentricities are, nor the right M/R, so he is making a sophisticated exploration of the possibilities. Calling it a guessing game was unfair to this work, but was a little verbal flare, nothing more.

Good to see you missed the point. You made the claim that this particular work was relevant to assessing if the exponential metric has been shown experimentally to be in error. Will's work is fine as it stands, but is not relevant to this forum.

You have yet to publicly back off the claim that the exponential metric should be rejected on experimental grounds we have today. Recanting that claim would in no way be a support of the GEM proposal, just a recalibration of what is in the literature. I at least have backed away from a claim that the binary pulsar data is relevant to testing a metric that presume the system is static, spherically symmetric and not rotating.

If someone is confused, it is not possible to unconfuse them. This does not sound like what I am trying to do:
Lawrence B. Crowell said:
Yet your idea of "symmetric" curvature terms or bundles simply does not make much mathematical sense. It is not applicable in Riemannian geometry or any differential geometry. There are graded structures on noncommutative geometries and the like, but this is not what you are advancing.

I can dump whatever I want into a Lagrange density, takes some derivatives, and end up with field equations. I don't know what math label I should use for my work. I was able to explicitly calculate the Maxwell equations in #438. It would be useful to me to know what was wrong with that derivation, since it looked fine on paper and in Mathematica. After completing that calculation, your suggestion was to do the derivation your way. A find suggestion except that I am an independent researcher. A few posts later (#442), I use the same core tools of physics, varying the Lagrangian to generate the field equations for gravity. Your reply to that was the Accelerated change I, II, and III posts. Those posts represent much work, but on a different topic.
Lawrence B. Crowell said:
Save it to say for a number of reasons I strongly suspect the GEM hypothesis is incorrect. It does not make much mathematical (differential geometric) sense, and I suspect that this work with orbiting pairs of compact bodies in ever tighter bounded gravitational wells will provide further tests on GR. To be honest as a classical theory I think Einstein's GR is completely spot on.

You have stuck to this position from day one. I have made claims - which I cannot independently verify - that you have not done calculations with my proposal, the only way any of this work could become interesting, using the common genuine complaint that you are too busy to do by hand #438, #442, #351, #233, or the divergence of the Christoffel symbol of the Rosen metric.

Let's look at the banal defense of the status quo:
To be honest as a classical theory I think Einstein's GR is completely spot on.

Classical theories, such as the Maxwell equation of EM which can also be integrated seamlessly with quantum mechanics, allows one to define energy at a point. That utterly fails for Einstein's GR. Experts in differential geometry claim this bug is a feature. People who know bugs are bugs, and to distrust people claiming bugs are features. Any proposal that can for any point use the Riemann normal coordinates to make the energy of the field zero at that point, means that boat has no bottom, it is sunk before being pushed off the dock. Einstein had the courage to doubt Einstein when he saw a flaw (I believe he was aware of this flaw and took it seriously, but I might be wrong on this historical detail, anyone recall?). It was impressive how often he tried to rebuild the boat for gravity with so many different approaches. Classical GR is broken in how it deals with energy. The flaw can be seen in the Riemann curvature tensor as the difference of two derivatives of the connection. That problem is fixed in GEM which has only one derivative of a connection.
The deviations in general relativity is likely at orders when scales approach ... the Planck length.

This is so standard, and so wrong in my opinion. What did GR do different from Newtonian theory? Very little. It explained the wee bit of error in the precession of the perihelion of Mercury. Light doesn't bend much around the Sun. Newton gets it half right, and GR (as well as GEM) says the wee bending in time is matched by an equally wee bend in space. That took a lot of effort to measure. There are the "deep" ideas of the equivalence of inertial and gravitational mass, which the well-schooled can discuss for hours on end (it cannot be explained to the average person since they are both mass so should be the same). GR clears up a clear technical problem, that gravity must obey the speed of light.

Nothing large fits with GR today. Let's start small. How about the rotation profile of a thin disk galaxy? Nope, doesn't work. How about how galaxies move in clusters? Nope. How about the big bang? Nope, doesn't work if you just crank back the Universe in time. Well, at least we know where we stand today, except that we don't get the acceleration.

I am aware of what the herd thinks: dark matter, dark matter, inflation, and dark energy respectively. We have the impressive standard model of particle physics, which with its great diversity of particles at this time contributes, zero, zero, zero, and zero particles to these hypotheses.

The modus operandi of a math problem is that big things need to get done by things with no properties (other than what is needed to solve the problem). We have problems with thin disks, galaxy clusters, the big bang, and the current state of the Universe. It is my belief based on one equation I derived two ways, that there is exactly no dark matter, no inflationary matter, and no dark energy in the Universe. It is wonderfully ironic that such a conservative skeptical position will be dismissed out of hand by serious researchers in these areas of study.

So what is that equation that is the foundation of my belief? All it takes is a little standard math, played with in a different way. In the classical limit of GR, we get the work horse of practical cosmology, Newtons' law, and I have included the term for rotation:

m\frac{(V(R))^2}{R} - \frac{G m M}{R^2} = \frac{d m V}{d t}

This is the one that fails for disk galaxies. Since this doesn't work, people have tried two fixes. One is from the Modification of Newtonian Dynamics, or MOND, that transforms the gravity force term from a R-2 law to R-1 when the gravitational acceleration is super small. That worked for more than a hundred disk galaxies, but was frowned on since it lacked a good theory. It also lost out based on data from a bullet galaxy passing though another galaxy. Now people claim the only other possibility is to stuff the M box with dark matter, in just the right amount in the right place to get both the speed and stability down. How convenient.

How can one stop here, when there is that other side of the equation? It is a change in momentum people, changes in mass and velocity in spacetime. The deep, true rule for gravity is completely relativistic. The classical law will reveal a shadow of this. By the product rule of calculus, the change in momentum is the result of a constant mass times the change in velocity with respect to spacetime plus a constant velocity times the change in mass with respect to spacetime. We know what the "constant mass times the change in velocity with respect to spacetime" becomes, mA. That is the only one that every gets any light. There are two possibilities for the other term, "constant velocity times the change in mass with respect to spacetime". One would be a change in time, V dm/dt. That happens for rocket ships, but not the Universe, which does not change rapidly. We are boiling down a relativistic problem to a classical one, so formally the other effect of the force of gravity could be Vc dm/dR (check the units, dimensional analysis matters unless you pay your mortgage doing work on strings). I have had the audacity to jot this down a few times for professional physicists, and they want to know what it is, what is its name? It is the product rule of calculus, with a relativistic twist. It says that the force of gravity determines the mass distribution in space. It will provide an utterly new constant velocity solution for classical gravity problems. The rotation profile of disk galaxies is a problem that needs a stable constant velocity solution. The big bang problem needs a stable constant velocity solution. Here is the new kid on the block:

m \frac{(V(R))^2}{R} - \frac{G m M}{R^2} = m \frac{d V}{d t}+ V \frac{d m}{d R/c}

Maybe not so new, I discussed this in posts #195 and #236. I am trying to get my courage up to try and tackle a real problem with it (specifically, the rotation profile of NGC3198, I like to focus on problems that concrete). If in the earliest time, the constant velocity solution was most important, the flat nature of the cosmic background radiation might have a new math explanation. The tug of war between these two terms could lead to a number of epochs where the amount of force of acceleration apparent as mA varies. At the current time, the amount seen for mA is decreasing a bit.

Discussions of the Planck scalar and quantum gravity strike me as utterly irrelevant. The problems cited are all large scale and classical. You certainly will have plenty of people to talk to. Fortunately, I like climbing alone but try to leave clear directions on how to do a similar climb.

Doug
 
  • #489
sweetser said:
Hello Lawrence:

In Will's paper, he does not know what the eccentricities are, nor the right M/R, so he is making a sophisticated exploration of the possibilities. Calling it a guessing game was unfair to this work, but was a little verbal flare, nothing more.
Doug

He discusses a range of these situations, which is from an experimental perspective relevant.

sweetser said:
Good to see you missed the point. You made the claim that this particular work was relevant to assessing if the exponential metric has been shown experimentally to be in error. Will's work is fine as it stands, but is not relevant to this forum.

You have yet to publicly back off the claim that the exponential metric should be rejected on experimental grounds we have today.
Doug

I said I think GEM has been falsified. To be honest I'd have to dig deeper into this matter, but it was my understanding that current astronomical measurements probed to ppN on the order where you claim there is a change. At this stage I will say things might be uncertain.

sweetser said:
I can dump whatever I want into a Lagrange density, takes some derivatives, and end up with field equations.
Doug

In a sense, sort of. But your results may be meaningless. Seriously, as this is about Riemannian geometry and differential geometry there is a body of work on this which lead to things such as Bianchi identities. It is all based around noncommutative bases of bundles or affine constructions. Symmetric structures emerge in an sort of "oblique" way in supermanifold theory.

I have a lot of work to do besides pouring over your work here. One problem is that there is an historical trend of:

In vino veritas

In video veritas

In cyber veritas,

where by extension you Mathematica work is claimed to be true because, ... well it is done by ... . Look the problem is that Mathematica will give an output, based on strict Boolean operations which are programs to do math operations perfectly, but if the input is wrong to start then Mathematica will give wrong output.

It would require an exhausting amount of work to pour through your stuff, complete with equations written out in brutal form with \partial all explicitely represented. There is not much manifestly covariant formalism, nor have I seen any mathematical theorem-proof constructions. Actually to be honest I have not read a one to five short paragraph discription/essay of 1000 words or less just exactly what this is really all about. What is the motivation, is there some central physical principle here that can be stated in some short elegant way? To be honest what I see now is the same as what I saw two years ago when I encountered this --- a lot of complicated equations and a lot of "fixes and patches" you seem to keep having to perform.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #490
Pithy unified field theory

Hello Lawrence:
Lawrence B. Crowell said:
my understanding that current astronomical measurements probed to ppN on the order where you claim there is a change. At this stage I will say things might be uncertain.

Fair enough.
Lawrence B. Crowell said:
Seriously, as this is about Riemannian geometry and differential geometry there is a body of work on this which lead to things such as Bianchi identities. It is all based around noncommutative bases of bundles or affine constructions. Symmetric structures emerge in an sort of "oblique" way in supermanifold theory.

And just as seriously, I understand why this holds together so tightly from a logical perspective. I have even learned from you how odd it is to try and tack on something symmetric to this construction, which is not what I am trying to do. Every tight web of logic has an underlying assumption. What underlies this is the assumption that the Riemann curvature tensor is necessary to describe the physical force of gravity. GR does work that way, we have darn great data to say GR is correct. All vetted researchers try to recreate GR in a wider context, or do a technical variation on the rank 2 field theory theme. I hope to show that GR, as good as it is, is not good enough for a unified field theory, it will be a challenge to challenge. I heard no reply to the long standing energy problem which is well known and well ignored today. There is no trivial way around that problem. If the Riemann curvature tensor is not relevant to the way unified fields in Nature work, then the Bianchi identities - a property of the Riemann curvature tensor - are also not important, nor are the bundles built on top of it all.
Lawrence B. Crowell said:
It would require an exhausting amount of work to pour through your stuff...

I certainly will not apologize for that. The Maxwell equations require a huge amount of work to understand, and most undergraduates never get it. Jackson's red book is full of technical details that take work to understand. My proposal contains the Maxwell equations as a formal subset. I also am trying to do gravity, so that makes things quite a bit more complicated, because I have to make a link to the divergence of a connection. I have to show to those oh-so-demanding people who work with GR that there is a metric solution to my field equations that is compatible with all current tests of gravity so far. I also have data that should I achieve such a goal, they say they are too busy to listen (note, this is an observation, not a complaint).

I may take up the 1000 word challenge, but it is a trap. Keep it short, keep it sweet, and people will say I haven't thought though some issue (it must be spin 2, you must get the precession of the perihelion of Mercury, what about strong field tests, demonstrate energy conservation...). Then there are those bogus complaints, such as "There is not much manifestly covariant formalism". I put in some effort to write out \nabla because that is how the covariant derivative is written out. It is the only one that I ever use, even when I resort to looking at derivatives with respect to x, y, and z, and write them as -c \frac{\partial ^2 Az}{\partial t\partial z}, I mean these are covariant partial derivatives. I use x, y, and z because I need to communicate with people who should be generous enough to know I don't mean the theory only makes sense in Euclidean coordinates.

I rather enjoy fixes and patches. I learn by humbly bumbling. My action still takes up only 2 lines. The field equations fit on t-shirt. The graphs for the Hamilton and Even representation of quaternions fit on a button. There are many details behind these compact statements. Kind of like the Lagrangian of GR (just R), and the Einstein field equations: not much text that one can write a 1300+ page book about them.

Oh, and I am very persistent. You tuned in two years ago, but the project started out in April of 1996 when I posted a question on the Internet to form a brief definition of time. In the Fall of that year I tackled a special relativity class at MIT. By April of '97 I had my first mix of Maxwell and quaternions. The GEM field equations were jotted down in August '99. It took a year and a half to find a connection to the exponential metric via the force. The new constant velocity solution for gravity was found in '01. By '02 I had a tensor expression for my action. I think my big break of '04 was showing the divergence of the Christoffel of the exponential metric was something Laplace would recognize. The developments of '07 were analytical animation used to visualize the symmetries U(1), SU(2), and SU(3), along with figuring out how to spot spin 2 symmetry in a 4-current, 4-potential coupling term. This year I have the even representation of quaternions with the group K4:6 to be used in a completely quaternion action. I understand why you don't want to get on this bus, and you might appreciate that the bus has enough momentum to keep it rolling forward.

Doug
 
  • #491
sweetser said:
Hello Lawrence:

And just as seriously, I understand why this holds together so tightly from a logical perspective. I have even learned from you how odd it is to try and tack on something symmetric to this construction, which is not what I am trying to do. Every tight web of logic has an underlying assumption. What underlies this is the assumption that the Riemann curvature tensor is necessary to describe the physical force of gravity. GR does work that way, we have darn great data to say GR is correct. All vetted researchers try to recreate GR in a wider context, or do a technical variation on the rank 2 field theory theme. I hope to show that GR, as good as it is, is not good enough for a unified field theory, it will be a challenge to challenge. I heard no reply to the long standing energy problem which is well known and well ignored today. There is no trivial way around that problem. If the Riemann curvature tensor is not relevant to the way unified fields in Nature work, then the Bianchi identities - a property of the Riemann curvature tensor - are also not important, nor are the bundles built on top of it all.

You have fallen into the trap! There is no energy problem with general relativity, at least if you think about it correctly. What you see as a problem is in fact an astounding fact of cosmology which is vitally important! Here is what you think the problem is, which I will state in fairly precise terms. The deSitter spacetime, which our cosmology appears to be asymptoting towards, as the metric

<br /> ds^2~=~-dt^2~+~e^{\beta t}(dr^2~+~r^2d\Omega^2)<br />

The metric terms are time dependent and it is not possible to find a k_t so that there is a stationary condition {\cal L}_{K_t}g~=~0 , for a Lie derivative {\cal L}_{K_t}~=~\kappa\partial/\partial t. This Lie derivative is defined according to brackets so that

<br /> {\cal L}_{k_t}g(X,~Y)~=~g([K_t,~X],~Y)~+~g(X,~[K_t,~Y]),<br />

where the brackets [K_t,~X] are not zero because the vectors X are functions of time. So there is no involutary system which defines a conservation of energy on the entire spacetime. The basis vectors for the deSitter cosmology are ]X_i~=~exp(\sqrt{\Lambda/3}~t/2) and so the above expression gives

<br /> {\cal L}_{K_t}g_{\mu\nu}~=~\sqrt{\Lambda/3}g_{\mu\nu}<br />

For the cosmological constant \Lambda~=~3H^2\Omega/c^2 this equation is an eigenvalued equation, and the nonvanishing of the Hubble constant is a measure of how k_t fails to be a proper Killing vector.

<br /> {\cal L}_{K_t}g_{\mu\nu}~=~Hg_{\mu\nu}<br />

The Hubble constant defines a velocity-distance rule H~=~{\dot R}/R, for R(t) a scale factor for the cosmology.

This gives a nonconservation of energy! There is no symmetry in general which defines a conservation of energy in a cosmology. This might for some be a horrible problem --- for me it is an astounding miracle! Now there is still the continuity equation \nabla_a T^{ab}~=~0, which is related to Bianchi identities etc, but the energy is the projection of a manifold basis vector on the momentum energy tensor

<br /> E^a~=~\Big(\int_{V^3}~-~\int_{V&#039;^3}\Big) e_bT^{ab}<br />

which is defined in a region of four spacetime bounded by three bounding spatial surfaces. The generalized Stokes' law then tells us this is the same as the differential of the integrand evaluated on the enclosing four spacetime

<br /> E^a~=~\int_{V^4}d(e_bT^{ab})<br />

which can be expressed according to the covariant derivative. This will give a covariant derivative on the basis vector with de_a~=~{\underline\omega_a}^b e_b, and the differential one form is a connection form. This is coordinate dependent and so the energy can't be localized. In the above case with cosmology, this is a similar result, but here the energy can't be defined globally and conservation of energy is not a global law.

A cosmology with a nonzero cosmological constant, or what is likely a parameter set into a constant (or approximately constant) value by the inflaton or dilaton in a spin(4,2)~\sim~su(2,2) model, is one where in general there is no unitarily equivalency between states in all regions of the cosmology. Even if the spatial surface is flat the accelerated expansion of the cosmology means that there is no such equivalency, and this comes about because there is no Killing vector K which when it acts on the energy KE = const. Without a Killing vector of this sort it means there is no isometry in the spacetime which maintains a constant energy on all paths in the cosmology. So the unitarity inequivalence of vacua in the earliest universe, where a vacua of unitary states is defined on a region \sim L_p in a superposition of other such vacua on about the same scale, is frozen into the classical cosmology after inflation. In a more general setting the Coleman-Mandula theorem is then a local principle. This gives the maximal set of symmetries of the S-matrix as the (0,~1/2)\oplus(1/2,~0) spinorial Lorentz group for external symmetry, an internal symmetry [A_i,~A_j]~=~c_{ijk}A_k, and the discrete CPT symmetry. The "maximal" extension on this is called supersymmetry. A cosmology with a non-zero cosmological constant necessarily means this is a local law, it does not apply globally. This is likely a source for what we call dark energy.

I will leave this at this point. This might sound odd, but this is a tremendous blessing. This is not something physicists should try to bury away, but embrace it. If thought about properly the consequences are astounding.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #492
Local energy

Hello Lawrence:

It is good to read that my powers of prediction are spot on.
sweetser said:
Classical theories, such as the Maxwell equation of EM which can also be integrated seamlessly with quantum mechanics, allows one to define energy at a point. That utterly fails for Einstein's GR. Experts in differential geometry claim this bug is a feature. People who know bugs are bugs, and to distrust people claiming bugs are features.

Actually, I was off on tone:
Lawrence B. Crowell said:
This might sound odd, but this is a tremendous blessing. This is not something physicists should try to bury away, but embrace it. If thought about properly the consequences are astounding.

I would like to explain this conflict in a friendly way. As usual, I learn a few more things about the standard approach to dealing with technical issues from Lawrence's posts. If one understands GR in a non-trivial way as Lawrence does, then the logic of his argument is spot on. There is no misstep along the way. I was aware of the "take home message":
Lawrence B. Crowell said:
This is coordinate dependent and so the energy can't be localized. In the above case with cosmology, this is a similar result, but here the energy can't be defined globally and conservation of energy is not a global law.

If this is in fact the way that Nature handles energy for gravitational systems, then Lawrence is correct to say the consequences of nonlocal energy are astounding. There might even be links to inflation or dark energy. The opportunity to make a contribution in these areas justifies the excitement reflected in Lawrence's post.

Anyone getting paid a working wage in gravity today would endorse in various tones the logic presented by Lawrence. This is because the logic is consistent, and GR is the only game that pays a working wage. Back in the early days of GR, there were people who thought this was a significant issue (I am not enough of a GR historian to know who took which sides, or how the debate evolved).

Let me start my minority view with the words for a pop tune:
Edie Brickell and the New Bohemians said:
There's nothing I hate more than nothing
Nothing keeps me up at night
I toss & turn over nothing
Nothing could cause a great BIG fight
Hey -- what's the matter?
Don't tell me nothing.

It is my unwavering belief that the vacuum state, that volume of spacetime that is devoid of all events, can accomplish nothing. From the perspective of logic, there are no events to do anything. This apparently conservative belief is radical. It goes against many research themes viable today: the false vacuum need by the Higgs mechanism, perhaps a key to inflation, perhaps a key to dark energy.

This will not cause a great BIG fight. My ultra-conservative view will be summarily dismissed as indicating I do not understand the issue. I recognize that there are measurable effects created by the variation of the energy of the vacuum. These effects, real as they are, cannot be engine that flings entire galaxies apart at a greater rate. The deviation from the average measured amount of energy is not energy.

The one and only true engine of the Universe must be math done right.

The road between a classical field theory to a quantum theory is well defined, even if not discussed often. I read this first in a quantum field theory book by Kaku. The idea is that you take the field equation, which related the potential to the source, and then invert this equation to get the propagator used in Feynman diagram calculations. How straightforward! There are a few hitches, such as gauge theories like the Maxwell equations and GR cannot be inverted until one picks a gauge. This is one reason I am excited that I have expressed the action both EM and GEM using quaternion operators. Those expressions were gauge free because the gauge was explicitly subtracted away when constructing the action. Yet the field equations are necessarily invertible because that is a property of a division algebra. Have I constructed the propagators from my fields and done a few quantum field theory calculations? No, not a one. I would like to do so, but would need technical help, or a pretty significant time block to try and work it out. I do think it holds promise.

Since the 1930s, people far brighter than myself have tried to figure out how to quantize an approach to gravity. One consistent theme holds: despite the current excitement measurable in the day, all efforts have failed. There are people today excited about super symmetry, others are into loops. I think every last one of these sincere people are wrong for the same reason. If energy cannot be localized, then one can find a place where the energy is zero, and will not be able to invert the field equations to get a propagator because dividing by zero is not allowed by ultra-conservatives like myself.

In an if...then statement, if the clause in the if is not true, nothing in the then clause matters. From my lofty station in the Independent Research forum, I am stating clearly that the "If GR is true" clause is false. I have a an alternative: "If GEM is true, then...". A rank 1, linear set of field equations would be a cake walk for those skilled in the quantum field theory arts. It would be so easy, that ease would be a reason people would dismiss it. Ironic, but true.

Nothing you said sounded odd to me. I am taking aim at the foundations which are in the action of any field theory.
Doug
 
  • #493
All actions are Lagrange multipiers on the bare action

<br /> S_b~=~\int pdq<br />

and give a set of constraints required to solve the DE that emerge from the Euler-Lagragne equations. In ADM GR the constraints are NH~+~N_iH^i~+~\dots, where the rest are Gauss' law results and the rest on the number of sources. The gauge term is required because constraints on gauge fields 1/4 F^{ab}F_{ab} are insufficient. So an additional gauge terms is required in the Lagrangian to constrain four additional variables, say in the case of EM.

As a classical theory of gravitation I think basic GR is correct. This might be a "bias," but I let that be as it is. Some results of this are a bit striking, in particular with respect to cosmology. It also leads to some strange results when you look at quantum fields in curved spacetime. I think these are simply forced upon us, and quantum gravity requires that we generalize or abstract certain canonical aspects of physics. In particular it demands that we quantize gravity, or maybe as I have said to "gravitize the quantum," in ways which manage noncompact group structure for exterior symmetries that exist locally, and to "patch" these together (atlas-chart constructions in diff-geom) in some consistent manner for a global theory.

Now one can say that GR is incorrect, but frankly I think this is in line with some late 19th century prosaic ideas about fixing gravity so it is not a 1/r^2 for but a 1/r^n force for some n = 2 + a small bit. To do new physics right it often requires that certain aspects of current physics be abandoned in order that different aspects of the world are viewed as aspects of a single system. I could go at great lengths about this with general relativity and quantum mechanics as "relationships" between particles or observables. One is geometric and local, the other is nonlocal and does not describe these relationships according to metric geometry. I am not sure it is of value to write about this in great depth here.

As for energy conservation, or the conservation of a component of a momentum energy tensor projected out by a local basis element, it simply turns out that in general this is not conserved. In particular for a cosmology with a time dependent metric it is not possible to define energy conservation within standard approach. Some people say this is a "disaster," but frankly to me it means that the vacuum on a local region is not unitarily equivalent to a vacuum "out there." This requires that we address the problem of what we mean by a vacuum in a QFT, where much of what physicists think of might just be an aspect of local quantization.

At any rate if one adopts your view that "anything goes," as Cole Porter said, with Lagrangians then maybe one can make any theory, even if it has no proper connection to differential geometry. Your symmetric field tensors and the rest have no connection to differential or algebraic geometry (where the latter is required for quantum fields) and so in effect you might be able to blast your way to what you want. Yet at the end of the day you might find, if you have not already, that few people are really paying any attention.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #494
GEM has a n=2 force law

Hello Lawrence:

You certainly are free to believe that GR is correct, and I hope I have shown respect for that practice. As a gambling man, GR is a safest bet on the table. Some of the security in working with strings is that one can pick out GR within its formalism. I prefer to call it a belief to a bias since it gives direction to studies on a topic.

It is my belief that GR is not correct. This is part of what guides my research. This is a minority belief. People who hold minority beliefs get falsely accused of many things. Here is one in your post:
Lawrence B. Crowell said:
Now one can say that GR is incorrect, but frankly I think this is in line with some late 19th century prosaic ideas about fixing gravity so it is not a 1/r^2 for but a 1/r^n force for some n = 2 + a small bit.

Why is GR consistent with a 1/R2 force law? Because g_{00} = 1 - 2 G M/c^2 R, take the derivative, and out pops the 1/R2 force law. There is absolutely no difference between this line of reasoning and the GEM proposal. If the GEM proposal was an n=2+delta, I would consider that a deal breaker, a solid reason to reject this line of research. It is unfortunate that you thought GEM does not have an n=2 exactly force law.

One difference between Newtonian theory and GR is in a force formulation, there will be a 1/R3 term in GR, whereas there will be no such term in Newton's proposal for gravity. GEM also has exactly the same term. It is the coefficients for the 1/R4 that are about 10% different. The difference between GR and GEM is subtle, and according to my knowledge - and a direct question to Clifford Will - there is no experimental data to second order PPN accuracy for weak gravitational systems, and no experiments are being funded at this time to look to that level of precision of static sources.

The GEM proposal could not be a 19th century idea because new math is necessary. Any well-trained physicist who has read the Feynman lectures on gravity would know that the phase of the current coupling term J^{\mu} A_{\mu} would have spin 1 symmetry for the transverse wave. That must be the case for EM, a transverse wave where like charges repel. If one asked about the other parts of that analysis, the scalar and longitudinal parts, one would see it had spin 2 symmetry, the particles needed by gravity where like charges attract, and the flight of photons is changed by gravity. You may have missed that issue, but it is an essential 21th century line of reasoning.

The newest addition is the Even representation of quaternions as a 4D commuting algebra. Nothing is ever completely new: a similar idea is packaged under the name of hypercomplex numbers. That introduces a new imaginary number, the hypercomplex number, but in practice of the Even representation, no new number is needed, just a new representation, based on a real 4x4 matrix. It was shown how this is a division algebra once the Eigen values are excluded. One of the cool things is that for some quaternions, this will exclude any quaternion living on the light cone. Neat, since the Even representation is related to gravity whose particles do not live on the light cone.

Lawrence B. Crowell said:
As for energy conservation, or the conservation of a component of a momentum energy tensor projected out by a local basis element, it simply turns out that in general this is not conserved. In particular for a cosmology with a time dependent metric it is not possible to define energy conservation within standard approach. Some people say this is a "disaster," but frankly to me it means that the vacuum on a local region is not unitarily equivalent to a vacuum "out there."
If you believe in GR, this is an important and productive issue to think about. I try and be more cold and analytical, not labeling it a "disaster", just a reason why GR, great as it has been, is flawed and must be rejected.

Energy conservation is looking better these days for the GEM proposal. Recall how Lut said I needed gauge invariance to get conservation of energy. I also know it is needed so that the gravitons travel at the speed of light. That was accomplished in post #442 for gravity alone by subtracting it away, and in post #457 for the GEM field equations by a fortuitous cancellation between gravity and EM.

"Anything goes"? I have gone to great effort to construct a theory consistent with experimental tests of weak field gravity to first order PPN accuracy. It differs slightly at second order PPN accuracy for spherically symmetric, static sources. My action is well defined. I have made the necessary link to spin 2 in the current coupling and field strength tensors. Because of my belief that GR is wrong, it eliminates the need to make what you label a "proper connection to differential geometry". In practice, that is always some road to the Riemann curvature tensor or Bianchi identities or some antisymmetric system. There is some antisymmetry in my proposal, just enough to get the job done for EM, no more than that, a rare case of intellectual minimalism. I do use a dash of differential geometry in calculating the Christoffel symbol of the second kind for the Rosen metric, getting a GM/R potential out of the exercise, showing I work with exactly n=2 for the force law.

The only thing I care about are technical arguments about the GEM proposal. I can number the exchanges I have had with Ph.D. level physicists. These have always had a one sided nature: they tell me what I need to work on, I do so, but what I get done does not make it back, they are too busy. Again, this is an observation. I told Alan Guth I had a unified field equation. He said I needed a field theory, with the Lagrangian defined, the field equations derived by varying the action, find solutions, show those solutions are both consistent with current tests and different at higher order. That took more than two years of work, but I did it. It is impossible to explain something long and complicated to the man, he will fall asleep, I have seen it happen :-) The entire issue about spin was created based on comments from Steve Carlip. In your own indirect way, I found the graph for both the Hamilton and Even representation of quaternions based on discussions here.
Lawrence B. Crowell said:
Yet at the end of the day you might find, if you have not already, that few people are really paying any attention.

There is nothing technical in this comment, it is all social. People get paid enough money to pay for mortgages studying GR and slight variations of GR. At the current time, there are no international meetings on quaternions. They will be on the stage at the International Conference on Clifford Algebras which happens once every three years. This thread is over 40k views which is considerably more than most threads at Physics Forums.

I am patient on resolving technical issues, and indifferent to the social aspects.

Doug
 
  • #495
sweetser said:
Hello Lawrence:

Why is GR consistent with a 1/R2 force law? Because g_{00} = 1 - 2 G M/c^2 R, take the derivative, and out pops the 1/R2 force law. There is absolutely no difference between this line of reasoning and the GEM proposal. If the GEM proposal was an n=2+delta, I would consider that a deal breaker, a solid reason to reject this line of research. It is unfortunate that you thought GEM does not have an n=2 exactly force law.

Doug

I indicated this by way of comparison. There is a standard theorem that a central force given by F~\propto~r^n determines closed elliptical orbits for n~=~\pm 2. There were proposals to modify Newtonian gravity to account for the precession of Mercury's orbit.

To be honest what you are doing is to impose symmetric terms into a field tensor, which must necessarily be zero, in a way so as to break gauge symmetry. You then figure this is some sort of coup, for now your theory requires no gauge fixing term or gauge condition ---- apparently seen as some auxilliary "baggage" you have eliminated. The "procedures" you go through are comparatively elementary, which would suggest that if these were appropriate that some physicists would have discovered and applied them by now. After all people such as Feynman were quite on the bright side of the intelligence scale. These symmetric field terms you fold into the theory, which are presumed to account for gauge conditions, must either be necessarily zero or if not then you are breaking up gauge symmetry. In the first case this means your theory would in some way reduce to standard YM gauge field theory, or if not then you are saying that field theory is not at all about gauge theory. You did make a statement about principal bundles and the rest being irrelevant. Hermann Weyl was one of the smarter guys to do theoretical physics and proved that EM was a gauge system.

As for quaternions, they are noncommutative and were employed initially by Maxwell in his EM equations to account for the curl-equations. To be honest a lot of what you say about quaternions does not make much sense, or at least what you are calliing quaternions appear to be something else.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
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  • #496
Particular omission

Hello Lawrence:
Lawrence B. Crowell said:
I indicated this by way of comparison.

Fair enough. I felt it necessary to point out that this particular comparison was not accurate on a technical level. You still have your serious reservations, but this is not one of them.
Lawrence B. Crowell said:
The "procedures" you go through are comparatively elementary, which would suggest that if these were appropriate that some physicists would have discovered and applied them by now. After all people such as Feynman were quite on the bright side of the intelligence scale.

The logical conclusion based on accepting this analysis is that one should not bother to try and do physics, unless one could demonstrate in a measurable way they were smarter than Feynman. One of Feynman's chief characteristics is to challenge anybody, no matter what their station. It is ironic that you place Feynman on an unreachable pedestal.

I do not put Feynman there. He was amazing, and human. Let's challenge Feynman specifically on the completeness of his analysis. Do you have "Feynman Lectures on Gravitation" in your possession? If not, one can look inside at amazon.com to review the pages in question (pages 31-34). He does an analysis of the current coupling term in EM, J^{\mu} A_{\mu}. He takes the Fourier transform of the potential to get a current-current interaction. He restricts the analysis to a current moving along the z axis. The goal is to figure out the phase of the transverse current, the Jx and Jy terms (he used J1 and J2 in his lectures). The equation on page 34 is the basis of the statement that for EM, the transverse wave will take a 2\pi radian change in phase to get back to where it started, a property of spin 1 particles. Spin 1 particles mediate a force where like charges repel, so photons can do the work of gravity.

His reasoning is both flawless and incomplete. He does not considered the rho-Jz current coupling (or J3-J4 in the lecture). For that term, the J and J' work together, and because they work together, it will require a change of \pi radians to get back to the start. That is a property of particles with spin 2. Feynman's analysis was not complete, which is different from wrong.

During my first three years at MIT, I played poker against a guy named Rob that went on to win the World Series of Poker. We were roughly the same level, although we both knew Dean was better. Rob kept up and intensified his study of the game, although I did not. I respect the conservative bet that it is unlikely that anyone posting to Independent Physics at Physics Forums has not found something new. Aware of these odds, what I actively look for are areas that have not been explored. I know neither Feynman or Einstein worked with quaternions. I know P.A.M. Dirac was asked if he was interested in a formulation of relativistic quantum field theory with quaternions (in other words, the Dirac equation), and after pausing a really long time as was his way, said he would only be interested if they were the real-valued quaternions (the person asking the question was crushed, since he had worked with complex-valued quaternions). This implies that Dirac did not work with 19th century quaternions.

Rob won that year on the flip of the last card, where is opponent got a flush, but he pulled a full house. In this particular instance, I have documented how Feynman's published analysis was not complete. It is nice it ties in so closely with the content of this thread.

I always get skeptical when I see "quotes" around "words". It usually indicates a breakdown in communication. A differential equation written with a division algebra should always be invertible. This would be a great time to cite such a proof for that assertion, or just do the proof myself, but I know my limitations.

The games with gauges are precise. One needs EM theory as well as gravity to be invariant under a gauge transformation for two reasons. First, both the particles that mediate the forces - the photon and the graviton - travel at the speed of light. Second, according to Lut, it is much easier to demonstrate a gauge theory conserves energy.

So what exactly do I mean by gauge theory in the context of the GEM proposal? Consider this scalar field:

g=\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t} - \frac{\partial Ax}{\partial x} -\frac{\partial Ay}{\partial y} -\frac{\partial Az}{\partial z}

Not a one of these terms ends up in the field equations in GEM field equations derived in most 438, 442, or 457. You are free to let \nabla . A = 0, known as the Coulomb gauge. You could work in the static gauge, setting \frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t} = 0, or the Lorenz gauge, \frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t} + \frac{\partial Ax}{\partial x} + \frac{\partial Ay}{\partial y} + \frac{\partial Az}{\partial z} = 0.

Peter Jack was the first person to write operators with real-valued operators to generate the Maxwell field equations. A year later, I did that trick independently. We has the mark of independent researchers: we did not do it the right way, just a way that worked. Post 438 is significant because the derivation is the first to use a quaternion to generate the Lagrange density. Once one gets E2 - B2, the rest is completely triple grade A standard field theory. And I got the Poynting vector as a freebee. An accident? I wouldn't bet against that one. Elegance is an essential guide in the search for truth.

One of the steps used there is familiar to anyone who decides to play with quaternions, and that is to eliminate the scalar using a conjugate, q - q*. That is what was done on the road to E2 - B2. We know the Maxwell equations is gauge invariant, and when the Lagrangian is formulated with quaternions, the reason is clear: it got subtracted away. Nice. Do the same exercise with the Even representation of quaternion - an idea from February 2008 - and one gets the field equations which are the natural relativistic form of Newton's law of gravity.

There was no way I could have planned it, but to find the unified field theory, do the exact same as EM and G separately, just skip the q - q* business. Then both Maxwell and G toss in the squared gauge, but with opposite signs, so they drop. An accident? See above comment again.

I also need to formulate GEM in a way that is not invariant under a gauge transformation. This will apply to the multitude of particles that do not travel at the speed of light. I haven't done that yet here, I got distracted defending the virtue of this work, and preparing talks, and living life (broken arm managements, yadda, yadda).

It is clear that the word symmetric is of concern to someone steeped in the technical nature of approaches to GR. As often repeated, I am not doing a variation on GR, I am doing a variation on the Maxwell equations. As you may know, one needs to supply the background metric as part of the mathematical structure of the Maxwell equations to put it to use (people usually use a flat metric, but it is a choice). There is no differential equation to solve that constrains what the metric can be.

What I am doing is a variation on the Maxwell equations, just barely enough to provide a differential equation whose solution is a dynamic metric based on the physical conditions.

It is a fine thing to question how a symmetric component could integrate into the math structure of GR to provide a non-zero result. As a variation on GEM, the concern is silly. Here are the undoubtedly non-zero terms found in the fields of Maxwell:

E = -\frac{\partial A}{\partial t} - \nabla \phi
B = \nabla \times A

And from the same soil, here are the two fields I refer to as the symmetric analogues needed for gravity:

e = \frac{\partial A}{\partial t} - \nabla \phi - 2 \Gamma_\nu^{\mu 0}A^{\nu}
b = -\nabla \Join A - 2 \Gamma_\nu^{i j}A^{\nu}

where \Join is defined as the symmetric curl, composed of the same terms as the curl, but all the signs are positive.

The fields of E and B are manifestly free to be non-zero. The fields e and b, no matter what labels we attach to them, are also free to be non-zero.

So how are these four different? If one decides to work with a metric compatible, torsion-free connection, then the way a dynamic metric changes will not change a calculation of the fields E and B, but will change e and b.


There are many claims on the Internet about Maxwell and quaternions. The idea of the curl was due to quaternions, as was the gradient, the dot product, the divergence, scalars and vectors. In the first edition, he used pure quaternions, where the scalar is equal to zero. That is a different way to write a 3-vector. The pure quaternions were removed by the third edition. In the introduction, he predicts that someone will someday figure out how to do all the work with quaternions, a point of pride for me, completing a task Maxwell defined.

Maxwell would not have been concerned about the issue of spin 2 symmetry, it was before his time. He certainly wouldn't be concerned with the divergence of the Christoffel of the Rosen metric. Smart guy, but imperfect at seeing into the future, a common problem.

Doug
 
  • #497
ok; lots of great info, but what is the effect of mass on height??

ok; lots of great info, but what effect does mass have on height??
If all parameters remain constant except the mass varies from 1kg to 10kg, the maximum height remains the same, so what's the effect of mass on height?
 
  • #498
Doug & Lawrence,

this is getting repetitive. You're not going to agree for the simple reason that Doug doesn't see any deep truth in the 4D manifold or the theorems of diff geom or gauge theory ( even while claiming that 'elegance' is a guide to truth ). Where does the 'truth' lie ? You are both convinced that your theoretical structures are 'right', but it's experimental facts that will decide not the mathematics you espouse.

Doug, your epic posts are getting too long. All the biographical detail does not add to the physics, or make your arguments more convincing. Didn't someone say 'brevity is the soul of something' ?

It's time to shut up and calculate !

Lut
 
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  • #499
Three Lagrangians to evaluate

Hello Lut:

Scientific conflicts are hard to manage. They quickly degenerate to name calling, which Lawrence and I have so far avoided (the personal stories might be one way of dodging that descent, plus I think people unskilled in these arts might find those side notes entertaining). Yes, the underlying difference in opinion stands, and I have no doubt will remain. The focus of exchanges has shifted, and that is informative, at least to me.

To stay rooted in calculations, have you been able to get to field questions for these three Lagrangians:

Maxwell:

(\nabla A - (\nabla A)^*)(- A \nabla - (A \nabla)^*) = (0, -E ~+~ B)(0, E ~+~ B) = (E^2 ~-~ B^2, 2 E \times B) \quad eq 1

Gravity:

(\nabla A2^* ~-~ (\nabla A2^*)^*)(- A2 \nabla^* ~-~ (A2 \nabla^*)^*) = (0, -e ~+~ b)(0, e ~+~ b) = (-e^2 ~+~ b^2, -e \Join e ~+~ b \Join b) \quad eq 2

And GEM:

\frac{1}{2}(-(A \nabla)(\nabla A) ~+~ (\nabla^* A2)(\nabla A2^*))
= ((-g, E ~+~ B)(g, -E ~+~ B) ~+~ (g, e ~+~ b)(g, -e ~+~ b))=(-g^2 ~+~ E^2 ~-~ B^2 ~+~ g^2 ~-~ e^2 ~+~ b^2, 2 E \times B ~-~ e \Join e ~+~ b \Join b ~+~ 2 gE ~+~ 2 gb) \quad eq 3

I can do that with pencil and paper and Mathematica. How is your tensor software doing with the challenge?

Doug
 
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  • #500
I think Lut has a point. I do have to say that you are working up equations which have n-chains equated to m-chains for m =/= n. This is in part what your scalar equation stuff does, which leads you to the symmetric curl, as you call it, which does not mathematically exist. Sure, once you spin something like that up from whole cloth you can then do calculations with it. Yet even if those calculations are flawless they are ultimately based on mathematical nonsense.

Yet it is clear I am not going to make you see these points. I indicated something about some recent measurement of the orbits of neutron stars and their agreement with GR in ppN expansion. Ultimately this is where the verdict will lie. At this point it may come down to a choice between a theory well grounded in differential geometry and one with questionable differential geometric content. If you are right then it not only overturns GR, but it means that the foundations of manifold mathematics from Gauss to Riemann and all the way up to Taubs and Atiyah needs to be seriously modified as well.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #501
Dr. Crowell's objection reminds me of the objections to Lisi's E8 paper; that one should not be allowed to add together spinors and scalars.

Rather than get involved in the particular objections, I'd like to note that the value of a theory is in its ability to predict reality, not its ability to be mathematically clean in some theoretical sense. What we need is the ability to calculate, not the ability to theorize.

For relativity and quantum field theory, we have absolutely no experimental verification of these theories. What we have instead is good experimental verification of GR calculations and excellent experimental verification of QFT calculations. All theory that lies below the level of calculation is junk DNA that was convenient to frame the calculations, but need not be a part of a newer, more general, theory. The successful calculations, on the other hand, must be retained or replaced with equivalent.
 
  • #502
I have decided to resurrect my little site here I started a year or two ago. I worked up an interesting idea on quantum fields in curved spacetime. This is very simple, only relying upon some basic ideas of geometry in QM and a fibration.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthr...=115826&page=2

I worked this up in my head as I wrote this, so there might be a boo-boo or two here, but I think the basic idea looks reasonable. In way of boo-boo I posted this notice on my site as well.
Lawrence B. Crowell
 
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  • #503
CarlB said:
Dr. Crowell's objection reminds me of the objections to Lisi's E8 paper; that one should not be allowed to add together spinors and scalars.

Lisi's paper does add them, but with the application of elements of the Clifford algebra. How Garrett frames spinors and scalars is similar to the application of Grassmannians in supersymmetry. Lisi is a bit glib on this, but it is not fatal to the basic architecture of his paper.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #505
Three sign changes

Hello Lawrence:

To keep things short and snappy per Lut's request, if this exists:

(\frac{\partial Ay}{\partial z} ~-~ \frac{\partial Az}{\partial y},\frac{\partial Az}{\partial x} ~-~ \frac{\partial Ax}{\partial z},\frac{\partial Ax}{\partial y} ~-~ \frac{\partial Ay}{\partial x})

...and this does not mathematically exist:

(\frac{\partial Ay}{\partial z} ~+~ \frac{\partial Az}{\partial y},\frac{\partial Az}{\partial x} ~+~ \frac{\partial Ax}{\partial z},\frac{\partial Ax}{\partial y} ~+~ \frac{\partial Ay}{\partial x})

then I am more than willing to challenge the status quo of manifold mathematics because it is an error of omission, not a mistake per se.

Doug
 
  • #506
sweetser said:
Hello Lut:

To stay rooted in calculations, have you been able to get to field questions for these three Lagrangians:

Maxwell:

(\nabla A - (\nabla A)^*)(- A \nabla - (A \nabla)^*) = (0, -E ~+~ B)(0, E ~+~ B) = (E^2 ~-~ B^2, 2 E \times B) \quad eq 1

Gravity:

(\nabla A2^* ~-~ (\nabla A2^*)^*)(- A2 \nabla^* ~-~ (A2 \nabla^*)^*) = (0, -e ~+~ b)(0, e ~+~ b) = (-e^2 ~+~ b^2, -e \Join e ~+~ b \Join b) \quad eq 2

And GEM:

\frac{1}{2}(-(A \nabla)(\nabla A) ~+~ (\nabla^* A2)(\nabla A2^*))
= ((-g, E ~+~ B)(g, -E ~+~ B) ~+~ (g, e ~+~ b)(g, -e ~+~ b))=(-g^2 ~+~ E^2 ~-~ B^2 ~+~ g^2 ~-~ e^2 ~+~ b^2, 2 E \times B ~-~ e \Join e ~+~ b \Join b ~+~ 2 gE ~+~ 2 gb) \quad eq 3

I can do that with pencil and paper and Mathematica. How is your tensor software doing with the challenge?

Doug

I've been playing about with the third one,

E^2 - B^2 -e^2 + b^2
which comes down to

(\partial_{\mu} A_{\nu})(\partial^{\mu} A^{\nu})

with the condition that

(\partial^{0}A^{0})^2+(\partial^{1}A^{1})^2+(\partial^{2}A^{2})^2+(\partial^{3}A^{3})^2=0

to get rid of g^2. This is as far as I've got, but I'll get back to it when my schedule allows.

This thread is interesting, please take the time to have a look at it.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=192422
 
  • #507
Check that software

Hello Lut:

It is good to focus on eq 3 which represents the GEM Lagrangian, instead of separately Maxwell and gravity, is a good one to focus on. I don't think it is correct to impose the condition:

(\partial^{0}A^{0})^2+(\partial^{1}A^{1})^2+(\partial^{2}A^{2})^2<br /> +(\partial^{3}A^{3})^2=0 \quad eq 4

What happens algebraically is that a -g2 cancels a +g2. You need to see exactly the same thing happen with your software.

As a practical programmer type, I appreciate your shortcut to the scalar. The scalar is the same, so should flow through from there the same. The theorist does not agree, because your algebra is working based on a particular gauge constraint - no different from any other gauge theory - while eq 3 has a gauge cancellation. Because eq 3 is based on cancellation, there are infinitely more choices for the gauge that work with eq 3 than for your software that dictates the sum of the squares of the partial derivatives.

Don't toss away this work on

(\partial_{\mu} A_{\nu})(\partial^{\mu} A^{\nu}) \quad eq 5

That may well be the Lagrangian used for GEM that applies to massive particles. The Lagrangian for the force mediating particles that travel at the speed of light because they are gauge invariant due to cancellation - eq 3 - is not the same as the one for massive particles which must break gauge symmetry in an elegant way, perhaps exactly like eq 5. I have to look at the details of this to see if I like it :-) Lots of things going on, preparing for a few talks, APS talks in New London, Connecticut and St. Louis, Missouri.

Just read the first post in the thread you suggested. My initial reaction - which will be fun to see if anyone else made the argument - is the spin symmetry of the field strength tensor is not consistent with a spin 1 particle needed for like charges to repel.

Doug
 
  • #508
Hi Doug:

OK, I'll find a way to deal with g.

As a practical programmer type, I appreciate your shortcut to the scalar. The scalar is the same, so should flow through from there the same. The theorist does not agree, because your algebra is working based on a particular gauge constraint - no different from any other gauge theory - while eq 3 has a gauge cancellation. Because eq 3 is based on cancellation, there are infinitely more choices for the gauge that work with eq 3 than for your software that dictates the sum of the squares of the partial derivatives.
Sorry, I don't understand a word of that.

I assume it's correct that E^2 - B^2 -e^2 + b^2 is (\partial_{\mu} A_{\nu})(\partial^{\mu} A^{\nu}) with the g part removed.
 
  • #509
Hello Lut:

The question is why does g make no contribution in the GEM proposal, specifically eq 3 of post 500. There are 4 A's required to generate the squared fields:

\frac{1}{2}(-(A \nabla)(\nabla A) ~+~ (\nabla^* A2)(\nabla A2^*))

The first two have curls, the last two have symmetric curls. The gauge g is definitely not set to zero. The g2 contributed by the first pair cancels with the second pair. You can tell if your software has faithfully done this because g is not set to zero, but none of the components of g appear in the final result.

In the first pair, it is the order of the differentials that changes. In the second pair, it is which one gets conjugates. The contraction of the asymmetric tensor \nabla_{\mu} A_{\nu} does not do this.

Doug
 
  • #510
Getting rid of g

Doug:

The easiest way is just to ignore it, so we start by defining the field tensors,

F_{(g)}^{\mu\nu} = \[ \left[ \begin{array}{cccc}<br /> 0 &amp; e_x &amp; e_y &amp; e_z\\\<br /> e_x &amp; 0 &amp; b_z &amp; b_y \\\<br /> e_y &amp; b_z &amp; 0 &amp; b_x \\\<br /> e_z &amp; b_y &amp; b_x &amp; 0 \end{array} \right]\]

F_{(em)}^{\mu\nu} = \[ \left[ \begin{array}{cccc}<br /> 0 &amp; -E_x &amp; -E_y &amp; -E_z\\\<br /> E_x &amp; 0 &amp; B_z &amp; -B_y \\\<br /> E_y &amp; -B_z &amp; 0 &amp; B_x \\\<br /> E_z &amp; B_y &amp; -B_x &amp; 0 \end{array} \right]\]

L_{(g)} = F_{(g)}^{\mu\nu}F_{(g)}_{\mu\nu} = b^2 - e^2

L_{(em)} = F_{(em)}^{\mu\nu}F_{(em)}_{\mu\nu} = B^2 - E^2

and with the usual definitions of E,B, e and b -

E^i = \partial^0A^i - \partial^iA^0

e^i = \partial^0A^i + \partial^iA^0

B^i = \partial^jA^k - \partial^kA^j, i &lt;&gt; j,k

b^i = \partial^jA^k + \partial^kA^j, i &lt;&gt; j,k

from which I finally get this
B^2 - E^2 + b^2 - e^2 =
(\partial^{x}A^y)^{2}+(\partial^{x}A^z)^{2}+(\partial^{y}A^x)^{2}+(\partial^{y}A^z)^{2}+(\partial^{z}A^x)^{2}+(\partial^{z}A^y)^{2}-(\partial^{t}A^x)^{2}-(\partial^{t}A^y)^{2}-(\partial^{t}A^z)^{2}-(\partial^{x}A^t)^{2}-(\partial^{y}A^t)^{2}-(\partial^{z}A^t)^{2}

The next step is to apply Euler-Lagrange, which doesn't seem to lead anywhere. Where did I go wrong ? ( Apart from losing some factors of 4 and butchering the notation !).

[later] I seem to be getting

\Box^2A^{\mu} = 0

Too tired to continue right now. I've got a feeling I've made a meal of something simple.
 
Last edited:

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