How can I calculate the length and angle of a tube bend using only a calculator?

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    Bending Tube
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around calculating the length and angle of a tube bend using basic mathematical formulas. Participants explore various approaches and equations to derive these values, focusing on the application of trigonometric functions and geometric relationships.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses difficulty in calculating the length and angle of a tube bend, seeking assistance with the formulas needed.
  • Another participant proposes a formula for the length (L) and angle (A) using trigonometric functions, but later acknowledges a typo in their equation.
  • A different participant challenges the proposed angle formula, suggesting an alternative equation involving sine and providing specific values for variables.
  • Further elaboration on the angle calculation is provided, including a detailed derivation of the sine function and its application to the problem.
  • Participants discuss the conditions under which the derived equations are valid, noting restrictions related to the physical feasibility of the tube bend.
  • One participant presents a revised equation for the angle, incorporating both tangent and sine components, and explains the geometric interpretation of the triangles involved.
  • Another participant appreciates the alternative solution and points out similar restrictions present in both approaches regarding the validity of the sine function.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

There is no consensus on a single correct formula for calculating the angle and length of the tube bend, as multiple competing equations and interpretations are presented. Participants engage in a debate over the validity of different approaches and the conditions under which they apply.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations related to the assumptions made in their equations, particularly concerning the physical constraints of the problem, such as the relationship between the radius, height, and distance parameters.

Good4you
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I guess it has been too long since i have had to use any math beyond arithmetic. I am working on fabricating some tube work, and these similar shapes keep coming up. I keep thinking i can calculate them out, but for some reason i always get stumped and feel like i am missing some information. I know this should be easy and the information must be there because i can draw the darn thing in cad. But when working in the garage i do not always have access to a computer, and would like to be able to do these calculations with just a calculator.

Can someone help me find the length, and angle below.
tangent.jpg
 
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arg, figured it out, it was easy:
L=((.75^2+16.5^2)-5.25^2)^.5

A=Tan^-1(.75/16.5)+tan^-1(5.25/(.75^2+16.5^2)^.5)
 
If you wouldn't mind, could you explain how you got that result?
 
Your formula for the angle is wrong, it should be:

sin(A)=\frac{rd+\sqrt{d^2+h^2-r^2}}{d^2+h^2}

where

d=16.5

h=0.75
 
Mentallic, can you please explain how you got that result?
 
Certainly, but before I show you, I should fix up my little typo :redface:

L=\sqrt{d^2+h^2-r^2}

sin(A)=\frac{rd+h\sqrt{d^2+h^2-r^2}}{d^2+h^2}

We will let the bottom side of that big triangle with hypotenuse L be m, so the little distance between the centre of the circle and the side of that triangle is d-m.

d-m=rsinA, you can probably figure why this is so for yourself.

There are two parallel lines that are vertical, the radius and the side of that triangle. So the angle between the side of the triangle and the other radius connecting it is A. Also, with a big of filling in angles, the very left point on the triangle subtends an angle A too.

So, cosA=\frac{m}{L} in that big triangle.

Combining these two equations by eliminating m, LcosA=d-rsinA

Now for some algebra:

L\sqrt{1-sin^2A}=d-rsinA

L^2(1-sin^2A)=d^2-2drsinA+r^2sin^2A

L^2sin^2A+r^2sin^2A-2drsinA-L^2+d^2=0

\left(L^2+r^2\right)sin^2A+\left(-2dr\right)sinA+\left(d^2-L^2\right)=0

I put them all in brackets to easily notice that the quadratic formula is going to be used here.

sinA=\frac{2dr\pm\sqrt{4d^2r^2-4(L^2+r^2)(d^2-L^2)}}{2(L^2+r^2)}

substituting L^2=d^2+h^2-r^2

sinA=\frac{2dr\pm\sqrt{4d^2r^2-4(d^2+h^2)(-h^2+r^2)}}{2(d^2+h^2)}

sinA=\frac{2dr\pm\sqrt{4d^2r^2+4d^h^2-4d^2r^2+4h^4-4h^2r^2}}{2(d^2+h^2)}

sinA=\frac{2dr\pm\sqrt{4h^2(d^2+h^2-r^2)}}{2(d^2+h^2)}

sinA=\frac{dr\pm h\sqrt{d^2+h^2-r^2}}{d^2+h^2}

Now to figure out which solution is correct, the plus of minus, I just used simple numbers for d, h and r and found which fits the problem. If anyone could think of a more elegant way I would like to hear about it.

Just as a notice, if you use some random numbers to try, the problem cannot be physically made if d^2+h^2-r^2<0 or, r>\sqrt{d^2+h^2} since it is not possible for the length between the centre of the circle and the end point of the triangle to be shorter than the radius, else the end point of the triangle will somehow be in the circle :smile:

So finally, sinA=\frac{rd+h\sqrt{L}}{d^2+h^2}
 
Last edited:
hmm. interesting, that works too.
My equation had a typo as well, let's try again.

A=Tan^-1(Y/X)+sin^-1(R/(Y^2+X^2)^.5)
X=16.5
Y=.75
The Tan portion of the equation is for the leftmost angle of the red triangle, and the sin portion is for the leftmost angle of the blue triangle, also assuming the hypotenuse of each triangle is equal to each other.

Red angle plus blue angle (tan +sin) gives you the angle of the "L" leg to the horizontal; which is also equal to A.


xyr.jpg
 
Ahh nice, I like your solution :smile:
The restriction that d^2+h^2-r^2\geq 0 is also present in a slightly different form in yours.

For sin^{-1}x to exist, -1\leq x\leq 1

Going from the restriction, r^2\leq d^2+h^2

\frac{r^2}{d^2+h^2}\leq 1

-1\leq \frac{r}{\sqrt{d^2+h^2}}\leq 1

which is what you'll find in your arcsin portion of the answer.
 

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