How can standard enthelpy values be negative?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of standard entropy values, particularly focusing on why certain aqueous ions, like Ca2+, can have negative standard entropy values, and the general observation that pure elements have positive standard entropy values. The scope includes theoretical considerations of entropy in dissolution processes and the underlying interactions involved.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question how certain aqueous ions can have negative standard entropy values despite the expectation that dissolution typically increases entropy.
  • There is a suggestion that the interactions between solvent dipoles and solute ions may complicate the entropy of mixing, potentially leading to a decrease in overall entropy during dissolution.
  • Participants discuss whether the charge-dipole interaction can be significant enough to affect entropy, noting that while it can be large, it is not always the case.
  • There is confusion regarding the terms "enthalpy" and "entropy," with participants clarifying that the discussion pertains to entropy.
  • One participant references the integral of heat capacity over temperature as a method for calculating standard entropy values.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express uncertainty regarding the relationship between dissolution and entropy changes, indicating that multiple competing views remain on the factors influencing standard entropy values. The discussion on the terminology also highlights a lack of consensus on the correct terms being used.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include potential misunderstandings about the definitions of enthalpy and entropy, as well as the complexities involved in measuring interactions that affect entropy during dissolution.

Conservation
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Certain aqueous ions have negative values for SO, such as Ca2+ with -55.2 J/(K*mol); how is this possible when dissolution is usually an increase in entropy?

Also, all pure elements seem to have positive standard entropy value; why is this the case?

Thank you.
 
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Enthalpy or entropy?

Aceix..
 
Oh jeez, I'm so sorry. I meant to say entropy. My bad.
 
Conservation said:
how is this possible when dissolution is usually an increase in entropy?
Start dropping solvent dipoles into an electrical potential well. There's more going on than just entropy of mixing.
 
So is the dipole interaction between the solute and the solvent great enough that dissolution will result in an overall decrease in entropy despite the entropy of mixing?
 
Can the charge-dipole interaction be that large? Yes. Is it always? No. That's what keeps measurement labs busy.
 
Makes sense. Thank you.
Also, could you answer my other question about elements always having a positive standard enthalpy?
 
Conservation said:
elements always having a positive standard enthalpy?
Enthalpy? Again, you mean "entropy?" It's the integral of Cp/T from absolute zero to 298 K (or whatever T for the table).
 
I really have to stop using the wrong term. I'm so sorry-the suggested threads about enthalpy at the bottom were throwing me off. :(
Okay, I think I see the integral idea now. Your explanation and this site (http://www.science.uwaterloo.ca/~cchieh/cact/applychem/entropy.html) was really helpful.

Thank you.
 

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