News How Do Fuel Cuts Impact Gaza Amidst Ongoing Conflict with Israel?

[Yonoz]

In your mind 'truth' translates into 'hate'?? Oh well <sigh>

If telling the "truth" means claiming "Israel and its friends in the US have created an orwellian world" and that "Israel invests in lobby groups" then it translates into hate in my mind.

yes, thanks for asking

Do you feel the world in which we live resembles the world portrayed by Orwell in his literature?

Again you're exposing your mindset tut tut. I wouldn't dream of telling the US how to conduct their foreign policy even if I could.

Right.

I do like to try and present them with the true facts so they can make their own minds up though.

We've seen the validity of your "true facts".

Simple logic. The leadership positions weren't vacant and so weren't available to fill until the incumbents were murdered

That does not constitute direct attribution. There's a reason why those incumbents were "murdered" in the first place.

Maybe I'm wrong and the extremists won't be unhappy but that's a good thing isn't it

Maybe you're wrong and the extremists - with whome you argue Israel should negotiate without any preconditions - will deliver on their repeated promises to continue working to "liberate" every inch of Israel until it ceases to exist - I suppose you consider that a good thing too.

I personally think both sides should stand down to allow talks to take place but seeing as how the Palestinians' elected representatives haven't been invited to the party that seems unlikely to happen.

On the contrary, the Palestinians' elected representatives have been very much invited if they meet those preconditions. You don't go to a party wearing improper attire.

As for recognition as a pre-condition, as I already pointed out Fatah already fell for that one.

What does that mean?

No they don't! They build illegal settlements and snipe at Palestinians. Strange sort of democracy you have if these actions are contained within it's structures.

We have a very liberal legal system, that has sentenced many Jewish extremists to prison sentences.

Oh and of course some serve with the IDF where they get to live out their sick fantasies.

This exposes the folly of your next comment:

I don't hate you or any other Israeli.

Right.

Truly Orwellian. Hamas WON the election by a landslide but when they try to take power you call it a coup d'etat. Nice one Yonoz

According to the Palestinian constitution, the President is Commander-in-Chief of the Security Forces. Hamas won elections that were solely to the legislative body. Their violent takeover of Gaza in which they routed the Security Forces is akin to the US Congress overthrowing the President. It is very much a coup d'etat by all definitions.

Your concern for me is touching but misplaced. I'd hate for you to have no-one to correct your inaccuracies.

I'm still waiting for an example of said multitasking. So far I see your criticism is all but exclusive of Israel and Jews.

Yes I guess they walk in each time without armoured support to shake hands, introduce themselves around and see if there are any good parties happening. I suppose the guns are just for show. Though I was thinking more about the 'house demolition' policy when I referred to punishment.

So it's agreed - no one sends tanks into punish anyone and the only ones carrying out regular bombings are the Palestinian militants.

I'm curious if the shoe was on the other foot and Palestine enjoyed the military superiority you now do, if Palestinian soldiers regularly crossed into Israel would you be so blase?

As I previously stated there are plenty of IDF installations and forces around the Gaza Strip. Though I still think attacks on these are unjustified, they are certainly more acceptable than firing rockets at civilians.

Air strikes http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L04337990.htm
http://www.voanews.com/english/2007-11-04-voa5.cfm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,2178154,00.html etc etc etc
Sounds pretty regular and pretty punishing to me don't you think so?

No, it sounds like self defense - why don't we look at the articles:

An Israeli military spokesman confirmed that an aircraft had fired at three men who had just launched rockets into southern Israel.

Israel's military says an aircraft fired at three men in northern Gaza who had just launched rockets into southern Israel.

Israel launched a missile strike near the town of Beit Hanoun early this morning in response to Palestinian rockets that were fired into Israel. Hospital doctors said two people were killed and five wounded.

 

[novaa77]

Yonoz:We do not share the same "truth", you're going to have to work harder than that and support your arguments with sources. So far, I haven't seen any contention to the fact that the Gaza Strip is not occupied by Israel...

Technically it is true that the west bank and gaza are not occupied by Israel but..

Israel tightens grip on West Bank and Gaza
By Chris Marsden

Israel’s latest military incursion into the West Bank, reoccupying Nablus and hunting down Palestinian activists, is once again justified as a response to the latest suicide bombing. But this stands reality on its head. For Israel has, to all intents and purposes, proclaimed military rule over the entire Palestinian Authority and merely has to decide where to next send in the tanks and helicopters—Jenin, Ramallah, Bethlehem, or the Gaza Strip. During such raids or preceding them, various Palestinian leaders or militants are assassinated, with the aim of provoking the next young man to strap explosives to his body and kill and maim Israeli civilians so that the Israeli Defence Forces may “retaliate”.

And...

The Peace Now organisation has issued reports detailing the expansion of Zionist settlements, despite pledges made by the Israeli government to halt their growth. The expansion is most significant in the Gaza Strip because of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon’s proposed “unilateral separation” initiative, which promises the removal of Israeli settlements there by 2005 combined with a land grab annexing half of the occupied West Bank permanently to Israel.

Even recently released Israeli government statistics are forced to acknowledge settlement growth, but downplay its true extent.

Currently, around 8,000 Jewish settlers occupy around 40 percent of the Gaza Strip, leaving 1.3 million Palestinians the remaining 60 percent.

According to Peace Now figures, in March, April and May an additional 455,000 square meters of construction and preparation of infrastructure took place in the settlements. Around 265,000 square meters were added to the settlements in the West Bank, and around 190,000 square meters in the Gaza Strip. Throughout the Occupied Territories, there are around 3,100 housing blocs being built, in addition to the preparation of areas for construction of thousands of further housing units.

Most of these settlement areas are widening to new agricultural lands.

Hurkyl:I notice you believe:
(1) Israeli should not take any action to defend themself from militants.
(2) Israel is attempting to conquer Palestinian land.

"Attempting" to conquer...
LOL, Thats a good one

 

[Yonoz]

Technically it is true that the west bank and gaza are not occupied by Israel but..

No one claimed the West Bank isn't occupied. The Gaza Strip, however, is not occupied. The article you're quoting is from 29 July 2004, before the implementation of the disengagement plan in which all Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip were removed, and the military was deployed outside it. This shows that despite the reported Jewish settler population growth in the Gaza Strip, the State of Israel did remove every last settler within less than a year of the initial implementation. As a result, the militants in Gaza took over the former settlements, completely scorching what was left - including synagogues and perfectly usable agricultural infrastructure - and the settlements were turned into training camps for the various militant factions. Rather than feed and house the starving and the shelterless and create a model on which to base the future Palestinian state, they chose to perpetuate violence and poverty.

So you pretty much disproved the second point Hurkyl mentioned you believe.

 

[novaa77]

Hurkyl:I notice you believe:
(1) Israeli should not take any action to defend themself from militants.
(2) Israel is attempting to conquer Palestinian land.
May I ask which came first?

No point in beating around the bush with who attacked whom first, right to defend myself etc...

The Birth of Israel: Myths and Realities
By Simha Flapan


The official Zionist story is oft told: Palestine was barren and largely uninhabited; the Zionist leadership agreed to the U.N. partition of Palestine in 1947 into Arab and Jewish states; the Arabs rejected partition and declared war on the newborn Israeli state; the Palestinians left their homes voluntarily despite efforts by Jewish leaders to persuade them to stay; Israel continues to work for peace and regional security, but the Arabs do not respond positively.

In The Birth of Israel Simha Flapan charges that these historical truths are propaganda and generated myths. Drawing on extensive research and recently declassified Israeli documents, he reconstructs the real events surrounding Israel’s birth in 1948. He shows that Zionist acceptance of the U.N. partition plan was a tactical move in an overall strategy aimed at first thwarting the creation of a Palestinian state in collaboration with Emir Abdullah and, secondly, increasing the territory assigned by the U.N. to the Jewish state. Palestinians’ expulsion from their homes, he asserts, was prompted by Israeli political and military leaders, who believed that Zionist colonization and statehood necessitated the transfer of Palestinian Arabs to Arab countries to maintain a Jewish majority. Flapan demonstrates that Israel exploited the 1948 war for territorial gain and refused to make concessions.Flapan’s work is an excellent study of the use of propaganda. He notes that these myths were central to the creation of structures of thinking of paramount importance in shaping Israel’s policy for almost four decades.

Mr. Flapan wants to give peace a chance to succeed. He feels strongly that the triumph of propaganda has obstructed peace forces in Israel. He calls for a fresh approach and a new outlook. Israel, Flapan contends, is in the midst of a deep moral, social, economic and political crisis, surely to be exacerbated without dramatic policy change. Israel struggles between opposing visions--on the one hand an enlightened democratic state, on the other, a fundamentalist militarist society. The outcome will have a significant impact on the Palestinian’s future as well as on prospects for regional peace.

also...

Revisionist studies by Israeli scholars, published recently here and in Britain, have been reinterpreting many of the events surrounding the creation of the state of Israel in the years 1947 to 1949. In general, the new books tend to place greater blame on Israel for the Palestinian problem - as well as for the turmoil, the human cost and the continued political impasse in the Middle East - than have most earlier

Revisionist studies by Israeli scholars, published recently here and in Britain, have been reinterpreting many of the events surrounding the creation of the state of Israel in the years 1947 to 1949. In general, the new books tend to place greater blame on Israel for the Palestinian problem - as well as for the turmoil, the human cost and the continued political impasse in the Middle East - than have most earlier Israeli studies.

Three books, all of which have exploited newly available documents, raise a host of questions about the period when Israel came into existence as an independent state, fighting a victorious war over neighboring Arab countries while roughly 700,000 Palestinian left their homes. Many of the Palestinians ended up in refugee districts, where they remain, their sense of grievance a contributing factor in the violence in the occupied territiories that began in December.

One of the books, ''The Birth of Israel: Myths and Realities'' by Simha Flapan, is viewed by Middle East specialists here as militantly anti-Zionist, a book designed to erode one of the major Western perceptions of the Israeli-Arab conflict - the notion that Israel has always held itself to a higher moral standard than its neighbors did.

 

[Yonoz]

Then why are you "beating around the bush"?

 

[mjsd]

Uh-huh.
...
If you're leaving it for others on this forum to judge, why not answer the question?

Because It is my hope to maintain neutrality. The question is phrased in a way that if I answer it as a "Yes or No" question, it will force me to take side in this conflict of Israel vs Palestine.
I do not wish to take side.

How did you reach that conclusion? I've already told you the very first source you provided distinctly says "cuts in supply are not being felt by Gazans".

let's be clear about this. The EXACT quote was

Extract from the BBC News Report
report dated: Monday, 29 October 2007, 21:41 GMT
when the cut was only just started.

"BBC producer Rushdi Abu Alouf in Gaza says that cuts in supply are not being felt by Gazans yet."

I advise you to read the materials that people refer to carefully in the future.

Stop this silly regression of the thread. Repeating a lie does not make it true, doesn't matter how strongly you would like that.

...sounds like a comment that should be redirected to the blatant propagandists and people without sanity on this forum.

 

[Yonoz]

Because It is my hope to maintain neutrality. The question is phrased in a way that if I answer it as a "Yes or No" question, it will force me to take side in this conflict of Israel vs Palestine.

No it doesn't. It may force you to take a side in the Art vs. Yonoz conflict, but you can maintain neutrality in the Israel-Palestinian conflict while denouncing or supporting what is a distinctly antisemitic comment.

let's be clear about this. The EXACT quote was

Since we are living in the present, it is one and the same as saying "cuts in supply are not being felt by Gazans". Your comment:

You may say cutting a few thousands of litres of petrol supply is hardly going to hurt anyone, but the reality is that it does.

...is still unsupported.

...sounds like a comment that should be redirected to the blatant propagandists and people without sanity on this forum.

If you feel anything I have stated is untrue you may direct my attention, in this case, you keep repeating a claim that has repeatedly been disproved.

 

[Art]

At a court session held to examine the Israeli government's desire to further restrict supplies to the Gaza Strip, several human rights groups branded the potential move a violation of international law, arguing that Israeli administration is deliberately pursuing a policy of collective punishment against the coastal region.
snip
“Until today … and because of the lack of fuel to pump water from the wells, the required and adequate volume of water is not reaching the home of 15% of the residents of Gaza. If the reduction of the supply of fuel continues, the percentage of the population who will not have access to clean water will increase gradually, and the wells will cease to operate … Today, there is no surplus in fuel to allow the operation of water facilities, and the volume of remaining fuel for sewage equipment is sufficient for only one week.”

Contrary to the state’s claims, the petitioners argued that the implementation of this decision could cause widespread humanitarian damage. It is likely to endanger the functioning of hospitals and sewage and water services, and will interrupt the operation of medical equipment as well as vital household electrical equipment such as refrigerators, including those needed to refrigerate essential medical supplies.

http://www.imemc.org/article/51387

A spokesman for one of Gaza's fuel companies cautioned that gas stations would soon starting shutting down if the cutbacks weren't lifted.

"We are running out of fuel — our storage will end within five days and we will shut down all the stations," said Mahmoud Khozudar, a spokesman for the Gaza fuel companies. "You will have no bakery, no water, no sewage treatment and no transportation."

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/11/06/africa/ME-GEN-Palestinians-Protest.php


No effect huh? :zzz:

Though I'm sure it seems a natural next step to Israel to supplement their other punitive measures

At a news conference at U.N. headquarters in New York, AbuZayd painted a grim picture of life in the Gaza Strip, saying there has been a 71 percent decrease in goods going into Gaza since May, there is "zero stock" of 91 drugs compared to 61 last month, and farmers do not have the money to get their crops picked or send them to market so they are rotting.

That means that there are no fruits and vegetables to supplement the basic rations that 80 percent of Gaza's population receive — flour, oil, sugar, a bit of lentils and powdered milk — either from UNRWA or the U.N. World Food Program, she said.

"It's not good enough," AbuZayd said. "UNRWA's only giving 61 percent" of the daily nutritional needs.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gas24zdOxdQcBQRTEuKAHPpObsPgD8SP6M400
But of course lack of food and medicines won't hurt them either eh Yonoz

I've no doubt that when 1000s of Palestinians die from malnutrition, hunger and disease you'll be back on here spouting your anti-Semitic (note: used correctly) nonsense about how it's all an anti-Zionist conspiracy and Israel is not to blame etc.. etc... Well at least you can't say you weren't warned.

 

[Evo]

From Art's link.

The violent takeover of the Gaza Strip last June by the Islamic militants of the Hamas movement, and their continual rocketing of Israel, has led to Gaza's increasing isolation. In September, Israel declared Gaza a "hostile entity," clearing the way for economic sanctions.

It sounds like Isreal is taking a non-hostile approach to stop Paslestinians and their violent aggression against Isreal.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gas24zdOxdQcBQRTEuKAHPpObsPgD8SP6M400

This thread is going in circles, so is being closed.