News How Do Fuel Cuts Impact Gaza Amidst Ongoing Conflict with Israel?

[mjsd]

You completely misunderstood me.

I have one suggestion for you. Perhaps you can make your post less "cryptic" in the future and that you do use more than 1-2 lines when you want to avoid being misinterpreted. From what I see, you often end up spending half of your time clarifying your position than discussing the issue itself.

 

[mjsd]

You're wasting your time trying to reason mjsd. It's just banging your head against the classic 'If you're not with us you're against us' mindset.

perhaps after all this I understand what the following is hinting...

Originally Posted by Yonoz

You know what they say about good intentions...

 

[Yonoz]

mjsd, do you agree with the following statement by Art?

Israel through it's friends in the US gov't and media has created an Orwellian world where they, whilst brutal oppressors, are painted as the good guys and their victims are labelled as the bad guys who are constantly remonstrated with for not behaving like good little victims and dying quietly without fuss.

 

[Yonoz]

I don't think so.
The act of analysing the mind of your enemies in an attempt to understand the motivations behind their actions should not be seen as a justification to their actions.

novaa77, do you think rocket fire directed at Israeli towns is justified?

 

[Hurkyl]

I have one suggestion for you. Perhaps you can make your post less "cryptic" in the future and that you do use more than 1-2 lines when you want to avoid being misinterpreted. From what I see, you often end up spending half of your time clarifying your position than discussing the issue itself.

I, of course, thought the meaning was clear; otherwise I would have clarified it when I initially wrote the post, rather than after I got misinterpreted.

And I'm not even presenting a position on the issues! Gah! I'm fully aware that my opinions are not rationally based; so, IMO, they have no place in these discussions. My primary motivation in actually speaking in these threads is to rebuke the irrational junk that actually does appears here.


In case your curious, my opinion formed from these forms. After seeing dozens of discussions that look like

"You stole our land!"
"We siezed your land because you were using it to fire at us."
"You stole our land!"

and

"Give peace a chance!"
"We did; it didn't work."
"Give peace a chance!"

and

"Oh look, somebody died; the only possible explanation is that Israel is evil."

and all of the other stupid junk I see, it has become extremely difficult to take the Palestinian side of things seriously. There are some good points out there, I'm sure, but they get almost completely drowned out by the stupidity.

 

[novaa77]

Yonoz:There are plenty of military installations and forces around the Gaza Strip that can be attacked instead of civilians.

novaa77, do you think rocket fire directed at Israeli towns is justified?

Hurkyl:You have stated that you believe Israel should not make any sort of response. Given that belief, the logic is automatic: the Israelis have responded, and therefore they are acting wrongly.

Its disconcerting that this post has been reduced to a discussion on what targets are justified for attack. Can't you see beyond this violence? I have very clearly stated that I do not condone attacks on either Israeli or Palestinian civliians. How ever I sense a great reluctance on your part to do the same. Can you explain this double standard?

It also seems to me that you are either unable or unwilling to look at this problem from a historical point of view. There is no point in carrying on about the justification of attacks unless you are willing to look at this problem from the correct perspective.

What is happening in the west bank and gaza is very similar to what the chinese have done in Tibet, which is to take over the land by military might and then toture the locals into submission and quell every kind of revolt against the oppressors by use of brutal and excessive force.
Obvisously no one can be expected to submit to such torture.

As I have mentioned earlier what you term as "Israeli response" is basically the continuous and systematic destruction of the will and the life of the Palestinian people. This will eventually bring them to such a state where they will no longer be able revolt against the occupation of their land, and this is the actual aim of what you term "Israeli response".

 

[Art]

From the BBC today - confirmation of what I said above about the continuing theft of Arab land by Zionists not only in contravention of international law and UN resolutions but also breaking agreements Israel has signed. But heaven forbid if the Arabs complain or worse still react

BBC NEWS
West Bank settlements 'expanding'
Construction is continuing in dozens of Jewish settlements in the West Bank despite Israel's pledge to freeze their expansion, an campaign group has said.

Peace Now says Jewish population growth is three times higher in the area occupied in 1967 than in Israel itself.

It says settlers are bypassing a ban on using caravans to expand settlements by erecting pre-fabricated homes on site.

Israeli settlements in the occupied territories are deemed illegal under international law.

Israel had pledged to stop their construction as part of internationally-backed peace efforts.

Peace Now says there is continuing construction in 88 out of about 150 of the authorised settlements, in addition to the building of permanent structures in 34 unauthorised settlement outposts.

Settler leaders expressed pleasure about Peace Now's report, thanking it for "documenting their endeavour".

Violation

Peace Now's Director-General Yariv Oppenheimer said the Israeli military had stopped monitoring construction at the illegal outposts.

"There is no connection between what is happening in political negotiations and what is happening on the ground," he told Israeli Army Radio.

He accused Israel's political leaders of violating their commitments ahead of an international peace conference aimed at restarting negotiations with the Palestinians and hoping to set up a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Analysts say the chances of success at the US-sponsored Annapolis conference are limited by Israeli settlement activity, as well as major concerns over security and institution-building on the Palestinian side.

Peace Now's report says most of the construction is in large settlement blocs located on the west side of the barrier Israel is building in the West Bank.

It said natural increase and the relocation of ultra-Orthodox families to settlements had led to the three-times higher population growth compared with in Israel.

A source in the Yesha council which represents the Jewish settlement movement said Peace Now's findings proved it had achieved an unstoppable momentum.
Story from BBC NEWS:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/7082629.stm

Published: 2007/11/07 11:11:46 GMT

© BBC MMVII

Note the arrogance of the 'settlers'. They know they act with impunity through force of arms.

 

[Yonoz]

Its disconcerting that this post has been reduced to a discussion on what targets are justified for attack.

Seeing as the attacks themselves are the reason for the sanctions that are the subject of this thread, the only disconcertion is that you won't support your argument for Israeli inaction, or suggest an alternative means of stopping the rocket fire on Israeli civilians.

Can't you see beyond this violence? I have very clearly stated that I do not condone attacks on either Israeli or Palestinian civliians. How ever I sense a great reluctance on your part to do the same. Can you explain this double standard?

No double standard here. I condone attacks on Palestinian civilians. I would actually like to see all forms of violence come to an end.

It also seems to me that you are either unable or unwilling to look at this problem from a historical point of view. There is no point in carrying on about the justification of attacks unless you are willing to look at this problem from the correct perspective.

What is happening in the west bank and gaza is very similar to what the chinese have done in Tibet, which is to take over the land by military might and then toture the locals into submission and quell every kind of revolt against the oppressors by use of brutal and excessive force.
Obvisously no one can be expected to submit to such torture.

This is off-topic, you can start a different thread if you like.

As I have mentioned earlier what you term as "Israeli response" is basically the continuous and systematic destruction of the will and the life of the Palestinian people. This will eventually bring them to such a state where they will no longer be able revolt against the occupation of their land, and this is the actual aim of what you term "Israeli response".

The Gaza Strip is not occupied. If by "revolt" you mean attacking Israeli civilians then that is the stated aim.

 

[Art]

I condone attacks on Palestinian civilians

A Freudian slip?? Or rare honesty?

The Gaza Strip is not occupied

Really?? Who controls her borders? Who controls her airspace? Who controls her coastline? Who regularly bombs her? Who regularly sends tanks into 'punish' her inhabitants. Who seizes her tax revenues? Who decides what goods and what quantity of goods are allowed in? Who decides how much energy she is allowed?

The status of Gaza is far worse than being merely occupied, it is a giant prison for it's 1.5 million inhabitants. The guards have simply moved back outside the walls.

 

[mjsd]

No double standard here. I condone attacks on Palestinian civilians. I would actually like to see all forms of violence come to an end.

A Freudian slip?? Or rare honesty?

In the light of this, double standard, I don't think there is much point for me to reply to the following post (which is very off-topic anyway)

mjsd, do you agree with the following statement by Art?

Israel through it's friends in the US gov't and media has created an Orwellian world where they, whilst brutal oppressors, are painted as the good guys and their victims are labelled as the bad guys who are constantly remonstrated with for not behaving like good little victims and dying quietly without fuss.

...perhaps until you and some of your allies have found some new logic, new meanings to your so-called humanity, or perhaps until you guys have destroyed all who are against your ideals OR you have been destroyed by them, and as a result, have realized (albeit to late) the irony of self-defence by force/violence/intimidation.

I certainly hope that you (both Israel and Palestine) won't go down that path of self-destruction. But unfortunately, your fate is in your hands and not mine.

 

[slugcountry]

The status of Gaza is far worse than being merely occupied, it is a giant prison for it's 1.5 million inhabitants. The guards have simply moved back outside the walls.

Art - I've watched this discussion pretty patiently but this is just enough. Palestinian militants send rockets into Israel from crowded civilian areas, purposefully targeting israeli civilians, and then israel gets blamed for retaliating when a palestinian civilian dies. I mean really what the hell are they supposed to do, sit idly by and wait to get killed by the next rocket? Have you ever been to the middle east? You talk like someone who is completely biased and ignorant of the reality of the situation "on the ground".

Many Israeli's are all for a Palestinian state - its the Palestinian leadership that refuses to negotiate, and publically and officially CONDONES attacking Israeli civilians.

What's happening in Palestine is surely a tragedy, and its true that the Gaza strip is nothing short of an impoverished ghetto - but its a freaking stretch to put the blame on israel, which is quite literally surrounded by openly hostile nations on every side.

Jews have been historically persecuted for thousands of years, and now we have a country and a chance to fight back. We have a right to exist. And as a member of the diaspora I could not exist without Israel. If you do not understand this fact, only further education can help you.

 

[novaa77]

Seeing as the attacks themselves are the reason for the sanctions that are the subject of this thread, the only disconcertion is that you won't support your argument for Israeli inaction, or suggest an alternative means of stopping the rocket fire on Israeli civilians.

we are just going round and round in circles here. And once again you have very conveniently ignored the question of the historic perspective. If you did It would be impossible to justify Israeli actions.

This is off-topic, you can start a different thread if you like.

The only reason I mentioned the Tibet issue was in the hope that you would see from this example the true nature of the problem in the west bank and gaza.


The Gaza Strip is not occupied. If by "revolt" you mean attacking Israeli civilians then that is the stated aim.[/QUOTE]

By revolt I mean fighting for their very existence.

 

[novaa77]

slugcountry:Art - I've watched this discussion pretty patiently but this is just enough. Palestinian militants send rockets into Israel from crowded civilian areas, purposefully targeting israeli civilians, and then israel gets blamed for retaliating when a palestinian civilian dies.

Have you ever stopped to consider why the Palestinians are sending rockets into Israel

I mean really what the hell are they supposed to do, sit idly by and wait to get killed by the next rocket? Have you ever been to the middle east? You talk like someone who is completely biased and ignorant of the reality of the situation "on the ground".

What you should do is allow the Palestinian people to get on with their lives. What you should not do is to continue battering them into submission.

Many Israeli's are all for a Palestinian state - its the Palestinian leadership that refuses to negotiate, and publically and officially CONDONES attacking Israeli civilians.

What's happening in Palestine is surely a tragedy, and its true that the Gaza strip is nothing short of an impoverished ghetto - but its a freaking stretch to put the blame on israel, which is quite literally surrounded by openly hostile nations on every side.

Again may be you should ponder over the reason for this hostility.

Jews have been historically persecuted for thousands of years, and now we have a country and a chance to fight back. We have a right to exist. And as a member of the diaspora I could not exist without Israel. If you do not understand this fact, only further edccation can help you

No one denies the Jews the right to existence, I wish the same could be said when it comes to the Israeli attitude towards the Palestinians.

On the whole a very one-sided and prejudiced view of the entire situation. Exactly the attitude that will ensure an on going conflict.

 

[Hurkyl]

A Freudian slip?? Or rare honesty?

Do you really believe those are the only two possibilities?

 

[Yonoz]

Who controls her borders?

Gotcha. Israel doesn't control the Gaza-Egypt border, and the Rafah crossing was shut down by the EU.

Who regularly bombs her? Who regularly sends tanks into 'punish' her inhabitants.

No-one.

Who decides what goods and what quantity of goods are allowed in?

What's "allowed" has been irrelevant for some time.

Who decides how much energy she is allowed?

Israel decides how much fuel and electricity it supplies, while as you have been shown the EU cut its supplies a while back (funny, I don't remember such a big deal made out of that).

The status of Gaza is far worse than being merely occupied, it is a giant prison for it's 1.5 million inhabitants. The guards have simply moved back outside the walls.

I agree its status is worse than being occupied, but there comes a time when people need to take responsibility for themselves and stop blaming all their troubles on Israel.
Oh wait, how silly of me - I'm telling this to a person who thinks all that's wrong with the world is the fault of the Jooooos.

 

[Yonoz]

In the light of this, double standard, I don't think there is much point for me to reply to the following post (which is very off-topic anyway)

They I assume you too think there is a global Jewish conspiracy.
So much for your "passion" for human rights etc.
Your motives in starting this thread are now quite clear.

...perhaps until you and some of your allies have found some new logic, new meanings to your so-called humanity, or perhaps until you guys have destroyed all who are against your ideals OR you have been destroyed by them, and as a result, have realized (albeit to late) the irony of self-defence by force/violence/intimidation.

Oh I see the irony! Antisemites arguing Israel shouldn't defend itself on account of humanism!

But unfortunately, your fate is in your hands and not mine.

How great is that?

 

[Yonoz]

Seeing as the attacks themselves are the reason for the sanctions that are the subject of this thread, the only disconcertion is that you won't support your argument for Israeli inaction, or suggest an alternative means of stopping the rocket fire on Israeli civilians.

we are just going round and round in circles here. And once again you have very conveniently ignored the question of the historic perspective. If you did It would be impossible to justify Israeli actions.

I'll take this as admission that in this non-"historical" perspective you agree the actions are justified, and I think you'll find that looking at this from a "historical" perspective justifies much more than economic sanctions.

The only reason I mentioned the Tibet issue was in the hope that you would see from this example the true nature of the problem in the west bank and gaza.

We do not share the same "truth", you're going to have to work harder than that and support your arguments with sources. So far, I haven't seen any contention to the fact that the Gaza Strip is not occupied by Israel, thus it is very much unlike Tibet which is occupied by China.

By revolt I mean fighting for their very existence.

Does "fighting for their very existence" mean firing rockets at Israeli civilians?

 

[Hurkyl]

Its disconcerting that this post has been reduced to a discussion on what targets are justified for attack. Can't you see beyond this violence?

Rather than guess what you mean, I'll kindly ask you to restate it.

I have very clearly stated that I do not condone attacks on either Israeli or Palestinian civliians. How ever I sense a great reluctance on your part to do the same. Can you explain this double standard?

I will happily accept as an axiom that civilians should not be the targeted.

But since it might become relevant, I would like to point out that "civilians should not be targeted" is not synonymous with "militants should not be targeted when civilian casualties are possible".

It also seems to me that you are either unable or unwilling to look at this problem from a historical point of view. There is no point in carrying on about the justification of attacks unless you are willing to look at this problem from the correct perspective.

From this and your subsequent posts, it sounds like your argument boils down to:

This situation vaguely resembles Chinese action in Tibet. Therefore, the two must be identical in all relevant ways.​

That is certainly not the "correct perspective". 'Understanding by analogy' is no substitute for understanding the actual thing, and is an incredibly common source for many error.

Look at it this way -- if you could actually prove that

What is happening in the west bank and gaza is ... to take over the land by military might and then toture the locals into submission and quell every kind of revolt against the oppressors by use of brutal and excessive force.

then why wouldn't you just use that as your condemnation of Israel? What purpose could your analogy possibly have?


Of course, it is quite presumptuous to state this as fact when it is a primary point of contention. After all, don't the Israeli's claim that they are acting to defend themselves from the attacks of militants and terrorist groups? Reviewing the thread, I notice you have not said anything to justify your claims...


I notice you believe:
(1) Israeli should not take any action to defend themself from militants.
(2) Israel is attempting to conquer Palestinian land.
May I ask which came first? Furthermore, is your belief in either of these statements the cause of your belief in the other?

 

[mjsd]

They I assume you too think there is a global Jewish conspiracy.
So much for your "passion" for human rights etc.
Your motives in starting this thread are now quite clear.

I do not understand how one can reach that kind of conclusion; especially for something that shouldn't be viewed as just a "yes or no" OR an "either-or" scenario although, on many occasions, you have posted many "either-or" questions so far (the act of which has been debunked by others heavily). The world is a very complicated place (which I think we all agreed), and as a result it is unhelpful to just appeal to the idea that it is either black or white.


If you do not appreciate the fact that I started this thread with a good intention, then so be it. I don't expect everyone or anyone to agree with me, just as you shouldn't expect others to agree with you. I shall leave it to others on this Forum to judge.

What is more important (and has often been forgotten in these perpetual debates) is that those who are suffering continue to suffer. You may say cutting a few thousands of litres of petrol supply is hardly going to hurt anyone, but the reality is that it does. Even in developed countries, a small rise in petrol price be it by 20c or 50c per litre it is going to hurt those middle to lower income earners big time especially when they have mortgages, several kids and elderly relatives.

 

[Art]

Hurkyl. You seem to base your argument on Israel's right to defend herself but this is a false axiom. It is the Palestinians who are under attack and who are attempting to defend themselves which due to their severely limited capacity is hardly more than a token resistance.

I have posted numerous sources to prove my contention that Israel is the main aggressor by any metric you care to mention be it number of civilians killed, land seized, property stolen and destroyed, acts of brutality, war crimes, tonnage of bombs, breaches of international law; take your pick.

 

[Art]

Oh I see the irony! Antisemites arguing Israel shouldn't defend itself on account of humanism!

As I keep pointing out to you to accuse people who sympathise with the Palestinians of being anti-Semitic is an oxymoron. The Arabs are Semites most Jews living in Israel are not! It is the Zionists such as yourself who are anti-Semitic.

 

[Yonoz]

I do not understand how one can reach that kind of conclusion; especially for something that shouldn't be viewed as just a "yes or no" OR an "either-or" scenario although, on many occasions, you have posted many "either-or" questions so far (the act of which has been debunked by others heavily). The world is a very complicated place (which I think we all agreed), and as a result it is unhelpful to just appeal to the idea that it is either black or white.

Uh-huh.
Since you've gone off-topic to discuss this anyway, how about simply answering the question: do you agree with the following statement?

Israel through it's friends in the US gov't and media has created an Orwellian world where they, whilst brutal oppressors, are painted as the good guys and their victims are labelled as the bad guys who are constantly remonstrated with for not behaving like good little victims and dying quietly without fuss.

If you do not appreciate the fact that I started this thread with a good intention, then so be it. I don't expect everyone or anyone to agree with me, just as you shouldn't expect others to agree with you. I shall leave it to others on this Forum to judge.

If you're leaving it for others on this forum to judge, why not answer the question? Have you something to hide from us?

What is more important (and has often been forgotten in these perpetual debates) is that those who are suffering continue to suffer.

I haven't forgotten that, and I believe that if the Hamas leadership in Gaza were to comply with the Israeli government's request for ending the rocket fire those who are suffering will be better off.
They would be better off yet if they acknowledge Israel's right of existence and turn to a legitimate form of struggle.

You may say cutting a few thousands of litres of petrol supply is hardly going to hurt anyone, but the reality is that it does.

How did you reach that conclusion? I've already told you the very first source you provided distinctly says "cuts in supply are not being felt by Gazans".
Stop this silly regression of the thread. Repeating a lie does not make it true, doesn't matter how strongly you would like that.

Even in developed countries, a small rise in petrol price be it by 20c or 50c per litre it is going to hurt those middle to lower income earners big time especially when they have mortgages, several kids and elderly relatives.

Then do you disagree with any form of economic sanctions - like those set on Apartheid South Africa? That's another one of my question you ignored.

 

[Yonoz]

As I keep pointing out to you to accuse people who sympathise with the Palestinians of being anti-Semitic is an oxymoron. The Arabs are Semites most Jews living in Israel are not!

I sympathise with the Palestinians, Art, and I don't accuse myself of being antisemitic. You, however, believe you live in "an orwellian world" created by "Israel and her friends in the US".

 

[Art]

I sympathise with the Palestinians, Art, and I don't accuse myself of being antisemitic. You, however, believe you live in "an orwellian world" created by "Israel and her friends in the US".

If you represent the sympathetic face of Israel then God help them from the unsympathetic Zionists.

On the subject of creating an Orwellian view of Israel's role in the ME. Are you familiar with the function of AIPAC, B’nai B’rith and Hadassah in the US? Basically they are investment vehicles. They invest hundreds of millions of dollars in promoting pro-Israeli candidates and lobbying support for pro-Israeli policies. In return for their outlay Israel receives billions of of US tax payers US$ in financial and military aid and of course totally pro-Israel policies.

Israel's own contribution to the PR campaign apart from the lies etc. is to make sure they have spokesmen with nice American accents to go before the western media so as to create a 'connection' with the audience who automatically 'relate' to them. The Palestinians on the other hand have neither the money nor the PR skills nor the access to the media nor in general the language skills to compete and so the view presented to the world in general and Americans in particular of the Israeli - Palestinian conflict is the grossly distorted image fabricated by the Zionists and their hirelings.

p.s. As you now finally appear to concede the Arabs are Semites I presume you will no longer be using the anti-Semite smear in this thread unless of course you wish to do so in the correct context in relation to Zionists.

An example of; If the messenger will not deliver the message you want then shoot the messenger.

BBC NEWS
Israel minister: Sack ElBaradei
A senior Israeli minister has called for the sacking of Mohamed ElBaradei, the head of the UN nuclear watchdog.

Deputy PM Shaul Mofaz said the Egyptian head of the International Atomic Energy Agency had endangered world peace by neglecting Iran's nuclear programme.

His comments come days before the IAEA is to publish its latest Iran report.

Mr ElBaradei has said Iran's nuclear programme is not an immediate threat and if it wanted to build a nuclear bomb it would need years to do so.

The IAEA report will help determine whether the United Nations imposes a third set of sanctions on Tehran.

"The policies followed by ElBaradei endanger world peace. His irresponsible attitude of sticking his head in the sand over Iran's nuclear programme should lead to his impeachment," Mr Mofaz said during a visit to Washington.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7085213.stm And bear in mind while reading this Israel will not let the IAEA have so much as a sniff of her own nuclear program.

More of the same old 'Do as I say don't do as I do'

 

[Yonoz]

On the subject of creating an Orwellian view of Israel's role in the ME. Are you familiar with the function of AIPAC, B’nai B’rith and Hadassah in the US? Basically they are investment vehicles. They invest hundreds of millions of dollars in promoting pro-Israeli candidates and lobbying support for pro-Israeli policies. In return for their outlay Israel receives billions of of US tax payers US$ in financial and military aid and of course totally pro-Israel policies.

Israel's own contribution to the PR campaign apart from the lies etc. is to make sure they have spokesmen with nice American accents to go before the western media so as to create a 'connection' with the audience who automatically 'relate' to them. The Palestinians on the other hand have neither the money nor the PR skills nor in general the language skills to compete and so the view presented to the world of the Israeli - Palestinian conflict is the grossly distorted image fabricated by the Zionists and their hirelings.

You still haven't explained how this created an orwellian world.
Israel does not contribute to lobbying. There are US Jewish organisations that deal in a whole variety of matters their contributors deem worthy. It is the democratic right (and some would say duty) of the citizens of a democracy to promote their ideals and interests (as long as those are made public). Lobbyism isn't unique to the American Jewry. There are many other US lobby groups. Believe it or not, we have lobbyists in Israel too (and my opinion of them does not differ much from my opinion of Jewish American lobbyists). You're Irish (if I rememeber correctly) - do you view Irish lobbying in the US in the same light? I'm sure you have lobbyists in the ROI. Do you think the Catholic Church does not lobby Irish legislators? How's that poor girl's abortion battle going? Oh that's right, she had to go to the Supreme Court - too bad your legislative arm is controlled by those orwellian Catholics.
Israel and the lobbyists disagree occassionaly, such as in the case of the Saudi arms deal, so it's clear they operate independently of Israel.
It should also be apparent by the latest power shifts in the Middle East that US (and EU) support of Israel, Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia is largely dictated by national interests. Besides, the US arms industry has a very powerful lobby. It just so happens that their interests and those of Israel converge, to a certain extent. Naturally Israeli dependence on US arms weakens Israeli independence and has meant many cutbacks to the military industries here, such as in the case of the Kfir fighter jet project.
As for those PR complaints - once again you show your criticism is limited to Jews. You've obviously never heard Hanan Ashrawi speak.

There are many things wrong with the world, Art, and focusing the blame on Jews is quite simply antisemitism.

 

[Art]

You still haven't explained how this created an orwellian world.
Israel does not contribute to lobbying. There are US Jewish organisations that deal in a whole variety of matters their contributors deem worthy. It is the democratic right (and some would say duty) of the citizens of a democracy to promote their ideals and interests (as long as those are made public). Lobbyism isn't unique to the American Jewry. There are many other US lobby groups. Believe it or not, we have lobbyists in Israel too (and my opinion of them does not differ much from my opinion of Jewish American lobbyists). You're Irish (if I rememeber correctly) - do you view Irish lobbying in the US in the same light? I'm sure you have lobbyists in the ROI. Do you think the Catholic Church does not lobby Irish legislators? How's that poor girl's abortion battle going? Oh that's right, she had to go to the Supreme Court - too bad your legislative arm is controlled by those orwellian Catholics.
Israel and the lobbyists disagree occassionaly, such as in the case of the Saudi arms deal, so it's clear they operate independently of Israel.
It should also be apparent by the latest power shifts in the Middle East that US (and EU) support of Israel, Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia is dictated by national interests. So is the industrial support. Besides the US arms industry has a very powerful lobby. It just so happens that their interests and those of Israel converge, to a certain extent. Naturally Israeli dependence on US arms weakens Israeli independence and has meant many cutbacks to the military industries here, such as in the case of the Kfir fighter jet project.
As for those PR complaints - once again you show your criticism is limited to Jews. You've obviously never heard Hanan Ashrawi speak.

There are many things wrong with the world, Art, and blaming them on Jews is called antisemitism.

I'll deal first with Orwellian.

An attitude and a policy of control by propaganda, misinformation, denial of truth, and manipulation of the past

Yep mine sounds like a correct use of the term to me.

In relation to the rest of your post. There are indeed many things wrong with the world Yonoz and I try to address as many of them as I can given limited time and resources Perhaps you missed the myriad comments I have posted in relation to other matters in other threads totally unrelated to Israel and Jewry (who btw I think you do a major disservice by insisting on using as a synonym for Zionism, to me they are completely different things) but this is a thread about Israel and her relations with the Palestinians.

If you are under some illusion that I think the EU or any other world organisation or individual country for that matter is a paragon of virtue then please let me correct your false impression. I do not.

You mentioned Ireland. If it engendered interest in this forum I would be more than happy to start a thread in relation to the corrupt, lying, thieving PM Bertie Ahern, we currently have running the country but unfortunately Ireland is too small an influence in world affairs for many people outside of our 26 counties to be interested or care whereas the actions and attitudes of Israel and the US have global consequences. I can assure you I would never let nationalism blind me to what is right and what is wrong. I see myself as a citizen of a global community and believe Nationalism is the root of nearly all wars.

p.s. let's try this again - most Jews in Israel are NOT Semites, most Semites ARE Arab. If you are determined to find a label for me then if you like you can call me an anti-Zionist, a badge I'd wear with pride

 

[Yonoz]

There are indeed many things wrong with the world Yonoz and I try to address as many of them as I can given limited time and resources

Finally, a shred of realism. There is a reason why I recommended you read Leviathan and The Social Contract. May I remind you that by simply posting criticism on an internet forum you are not addressing anything but the promotion of hatred.
The people who make up all those entities you criticize so very much are also trying to address as many of the wrongs of the world as they can. Only they don't settle for posting on internet forums - they actually get out there and make very difficult choices. The staff of the IDF, for example, are trying to make sure Israeli civilians can live in safety. They don't have the time and resources to attack the ones endangering these civilians only when it is convenient for the rest of the world, and they certainly don't have the time and resources to right all the historical wrongs the Palestinians have suffered. No one can take care of themselves on their own, let alone others.
That is why we are organised in states - we take our combined resources and try and put them to common goals. What the Palestinians need to do is get organised and work towards their common goals. Instead, they're too busy in factional disputes and power struggles. One of the factors keeping them from achieving that is the constant belief that all that is wrong is the fault of Israelis. Another is Iranian intervention aimed at weakening moderates and strengthening fundmentalists.
Some Palestinians have figured this out: It's Not You, It's Us

Gaza, as Hamad sees her, is a city that is groaning, despondent, pitiful and wounded (we are using his expressions). The occupation is over says Hamad. The negative processes which are being experienced by the Authority are the fault of the Palestinians and they are responsible for remedying them. Israel is no longer in the Gaza Strip, and they must take responsibility for the situation. To cite from the article: "I don't want to expose the occupation its malevolence and crimes for everyone, great and small, is already aware of it. This time I'm interested precisely in examining ourselves and our mistakes. We're always hesitant about discussing our mistakes candidly. We've become used to, from time immemorial, to ascribe the blame to pre-arranged pegs for anarchy, bedlam, groundless killing, theft of lands, disputes between clans...what does all this have to do with the occupation?? And indeed we have already become used to blaming our failures on others.

Before Israel's foundation, we were also divided. When some hard-line Zionists were acting insensibly - as are some Palestinians now - the rest handed them over to the British. Ben-Gurion would rather lose precious arms and lives than share power with extremists. This seeming acts of Jews betraying each other were difficult and caused much division, even to this day. Some still consider them "wrong", but they were necessary for the formation of a state.

When you show support for irrational extremists you are hurting the Palestinian cause, unless you share the extremists' view that the Palestinian cause is the complete destruction of Israel, and not the formation of a state.

You mentioned Ireland. If it engendered interest in this forum I would be more than happy to start a thread in relation to the corrupt, lying, thieving PM Bertie Ahern, we currently have running the country but unfortunately Ireland is too small an influence in world affairs for many people to be interested or care whereas the actions and attitudes of Israel and the US have global consequences.

Charity starts at home. There is a concept in modern Judaism called Tikkun Olam - "repairing the world". The concept is that of concentric circles, the innermost representing one's self, the next one's family, followed by community, city, nation and the world. Tikkun Olam works by working from the inside out. If you're happy with your self, it radiates outwards to your family, and from there to your community etc. I'm secular, but very fond of this concept. That is the reason for my previous suggestion by PM.

 

[Art]

I disagree. Public opinion is very important to Israel and so it is useful to have internet forums such as this to counter Israel's Orwellian propaganda.

If citizens of countries such as the USA began to seriously question how their tax dollars are being spent supplying armaments such as cluster bombs to a country which then uses them in an act of spite against a civilian population and questions the right of one country to seize territory at will then Israeli policy will be forced to change.

The reason why groups such as Islamic Jihad flourish in Palestine is directly attributable to Israel's policy of targeted assassinations (murder) of the more moderate secular leaders which resulted in a political vacuum which the fundamentalists have been only too happy to fill.

If Israel were to negotiate the creation of a Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders with compensation or the right to return for the land taken previous to that I am sure some extremists would be unhappy on both sides but they would be marginalised. But as you know Israel has no serious wish at this time for genuine negotiations as she prefers to first complete her annexations which can then be presented as a fait accompli to strengthen her hand in any final solution settlement. Hence her pre-conditions of 'give us everything we want and then we'll talk to you' Duh! Doesn't leave a lot to negotiate over does it?

Fatah fell for that one before. They agreed to recognise Israel and did Israel reciprocate? Like hell they did.. 'Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me' (for GWB )

However Hamas is nowhere near as intransigent as Israel would have one believe. They have said;

Attitude to Israel: However, Hamas's Ismail Haniya, the prime minister of the unity government until it was dissolved in June 2007, has spoken of a long-term truce with Israel if Israel withdraws from territory occupied in 1967.

To pretend only the Palestinians hold extremists in their ranks is an example of the Orwellian twisting of the truth I referred to. Perhaps you should take a look at some of the op-eds and letters from right wing commentators in your Israeli press . Many make people such as Idi Amin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idi_Amin seem like a pacifist in comparison.

I take it from your comment 'charity begins at home' to mean you would prefer if I devoted 100% of my time to Irish affairs. Well the good news is I can multi-task so I can criticize my own gov't here and still find time to address global issues

To further prove my point re Orwellian tactics you denied my claim of regular Israeli military incursions into the Gaza strip so from the Israeli press I find

IDF reservists: Hamas men fight like soldiers, not terrorists
By Amos Harel, Haaretz Correspondent
tags: Hamas, Gaza, IDF, Israel

Reserve-duty paratroopers who completed a month of duty in the Gaza Strip last week say that facing militant groups such as Hamas was like taking part in a "mini-war."

During the patrol company's operations deep in Palestinian territory, four Hamas militants and one Israel Defense Forces soldier, Sergeant-Major (Res.) Ehud Efrati, were killed. "The people we killed weren't terrorists, they were soldiers," an officer in the company told Haaretz.

"In a direct confrontation, the IDF has superiority over them, but in all parameters - training, equipment quality, operational discipline - we are facing an army, not gangs," he said.

"On the professional level, Hamas in the Gaza Strip is nothing like the terrorists we dealt with before. We saw the bodies of their men after the incidents. They had elastic bands on their pant legs. How many reservists do you know in the IDF who are that well kitted out, with elastics on their pants?"

In a move fairly rare for reservists, the paratroopers were part of the offensive operations in the Strip. For the past several months, the IDF has been carrying out raids a few kilometers into Gaza on a regular basis. Within the space of about two weeks, the company had three live-fire incidents with Hamas - a lot for a reserve force that ostensibly was called up for ongoing security operations.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/921831.html

btw I missed your comment earlier re the Rafah crossing so just to correct your misinformation regarding that item,

The Rafah Border Crossing (Arabic: تقاطع حدود رفح, Hebrew: מעבר רפיח‎) is an international border crossing between Egyptian and Palestinian-controlled Rafah. It was built by the Israeli and Egyptian governments after the 1979 Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty and 1982 Israeli withdrawal from the Sinai Peninsula, and was managed by the Israel Airports Authority until it was evacuated on 11 September 2005 as part of Israel's unilateral disengagement plan. It has since become the mission of the European Union Border Assistance Mission Rafah (EUBAM) to monitor the crossing.

The Rafah crossing was opened on 25 November 2005 and operated nearly daily until 25 June 2006[1]. Since that time it has been closed by Israeli authorities on 86% of days due to security reasons[1]. It was not opened for the export of goods[1]. In June 2007, the crossing was closed entirely after the Hamas takeover of the Gaza Strip.

 

[Yonoz]

I disagree. Public opinion is very important to Israel and so it is useful to have internet forums such as this to counter Israel's Orwellian propaganda.

In other words, your intention is to spread hatred.
Have you ever read anything by Orwell?

If citizens of countries such as the USA began to seriously question how their tax dollars are being spent supplying armaments such as cluster bombs to a country which then uses them in an act of spite against a civilian population and questions the right of one country to seize territory at will then Israeli policy will be forced to change.

So any Israeli PR is wrong wrong wrong but someone of pure heart such as yourself will tell the citizens of the US how to conduct their foreign policy.
I didn't see you lecturing Perham on what his nation does with their munitions.

The reason why groups such as Islamic Jihad flourish in Palestine is directly attributable to Israel's policy of targeted assassinations (murder) of the more moderate secular leaders which resulted in a political vacuum which the fundamentalists have been only too happy to fill.

Again Art, you have to somehow support these statements - I'd like you to show this "direct attribution". I believe you'll find these groups existed long before targeted assassinations were carried out.

If Israel were to negotiate the creation of a Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders with compensation or the right to return for the land taken previous to that I am sure some extremists would be unhappy on both sides but they would be marginalised.

Oh. You're sure. Well that changes everything...

But as you know Israel has no serious wish at this time for genuine negotiations as she prefers to first complete her annexations which can then be presented as a fait accompli to strengthen her hand in any final solution settlement. Hence her pre-conditions of 'give us everything we want and then we'll talk to you' Duh! Doesn't leave a lot to negotiate over does it?

The only pre-conditions are the acceptance of Israel's right of existence and the cessation of attacks on civilians. Do you think that's too much to ask, or do you believe it's acceptable that Israel negotiate with the Palestinians while its civilians are being attacked?

To pretend only the Palestinians hold extremists in their ranks is an example of the Orwellian twisting of the truth I referred to. Perhaps you should take a look at some of the op-eds and letters from right wing commentators in your Israeli press . Many make people such as Idi Amin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idi_Amin seem like a pacifist in comparison.

No one is claiming there are no Israeli extremists, but here they operate within the democratic framework - they don't rule like in Gaza. Those op-eds and letters are a good argument for the support of Israel. The more haters (like yourself) we encounter, the further right our society leans.
That's the first source you presented in a while, and it has nothing to do with the topic...

During the recent Fatah - Hamas fight Israel and the US did their best to ferment a civil war in the Palestinian territories by generously supplying arms to Fatah, hardly the move of a peace loving people now is it?

You have it the wrong way around: Israel and the US did their best to keep Hamas from performing a coup d'etat.

I take it from your comment 'charity begins at home' to mean you would prefer if I devoted 100% of my time to Irish affairs. Well the good news is I can multi-task so I can criticize my own gov't here and still find time to address global issues

No, I meant you should step away from the keyboard and do some personal reflections vis a vis your personal goals - what you want to achieve etc.
Can you show me an example of the said multi-tasking?

To further prove my point re Orwellian tactics you denied my claim of regular Israeli military incursions into the Gaza strip so from the Israeli press I find http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/921831.html

What claim? Do you mean this:

Who regularly bombs her? Who regularly sends tanks into 'punish' her inhabitants.

As you can see no-one regularly bombs her and no-one sends in tanks to 'punish' her inhabitants, so I don't know what "claim of regular Israeli military incursions" you're claiming I denied.

 

[Art]

In other words, your intention is to spread hatred.

In your mind 'truth' translates into 'hate'?? Oh well <sigh>

Have you ever read anything by Orwell?

yes, thanks for asking

So any Israeli PR is wrong wrong wrong but someone of pure heart such as yourself will tell the citizens of the US how to conduct their foreign policy.
I didn't see you lecturing Perham on what his nation does with their munitions.

Again you're exposing your mindset tut tut. I wouldn't dream of telling the US how to conduct their foreign policy even if I could. I do like to try and present them with the true facts so they can make their own minds up though.

Again Art, you have to somehow support these statements - I'd like you to show this "direct attribution". I believe you'll find these groups existed long before targeted assassinations were carried out.

Simple logic. The leadership positions weren't vacant and so weren't available to fill until the incumbents were murdered

Oh. You're sure. Well that changes everything...

Maybe I'm wrong and the extremists won't be unhappy but that's a good thing isn't it

The only pre-conditions are the acceptance of Israel's right of existence and the cessation of attacks on civilians. Do you think that's too much to ask, or do you believe it's acceptable that Israel negotiate with the Palestinians while its civilians are being attacked?

I personally think both sides should stand down to allow talks to take place but seeing as how the Palestinians' elected representatives haven't been invited to the party that seems unlikely to happen. As for recognition as a pre-condition, as I already pointed out Fatah already fell for that one.

No one is claiming there are no Israeli extremists, but here they operate within the democratic framework - they don't rule like in Gaza. Those op-eds and letters are a good argument for the support of Israel. The more haters (like yourself) we encounter, the further right our society leans.
That's the first source you presented in a while, and it has nothing to do with the topic...

No they don't! They build illegal settlements and snipe at Palestinians. Strange sort of democracy you have if these actions are contained within it's structures. Oh and of course some serve with the IDF where they get to live out their sick fantasies.

And please quit with the 'haters' nonsense. I'm sure that must breach the forum's guidelines. I don't hate you or any other Israeli. I do hate many of the things your gov't has done and is doing. There's a big difference you know.

You have it the wrong way around: Israel and the US did their best to keep Hamas from performing a coup d'etat .

Truly Orwellian. Hamas WON the election by a landslide but when they try to take power you call it a coup d'etat. Nice one Yonoz

No, I meant you should step away from the keyboard and do some personal reflections vis a vis your personal goals - what you want to achieve etc.
Can you show me an example of the said multi-tasking?

Your concern for me is touching but misplaced. I'd hate for you to have no-one to correct your inaccuracies.

What claim? Do you mean this:

As you can see no-one regularly bombs her and no-one sends in tanks to 'punish' her inhabitants, so I don't know what "claim of regular Israeli military incursions" you're claiming I denied.

Yes I guess they walk in each time without armoured support to shake hands, introduce themselves around and see if there are any good parties happening. I suppose the guns are just for show. Though I was thinking more about the 'house demolition' policy when I referred to punishment.

I'm curious if the shoe was on the other foot and Palestine enjoyed the military superiority you now do, if Palestinian soldiers regularly crossed into Israel would you be so blase?

Air strikes

Israeli missile strike kills three Gaza men-medics

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L04337990.htm

Israeli Missile Strikes Kill Four Palestinians in Northern Gaza
By VOA News
04 November 2007

http://www.voanews.com/english/2007-11-04-voa5.cfm

Israeli missile strike kills two Palestinians

Fred Attewill and agencies
Thursday September 27, 2007
Guardian Unlimited

Two Palestinians were killed by Israeli forces in Gaza today, bringing the death toll to 11 in the last 24 hours.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,2178154,00.html etc etc etc
Sounds pretty regular and pretty punishing to me don't you think so?