News What were the consequences of Israel's attack on the Gaza Aid Flotilla?

[OmCheeto]

I don't know. I honestly don't know. But it always gets me when people get so bloody worked up because it's about THEIR people. And it's not just in war. Recently, the somewhat arising xenophobia in Sweden has raised similar feelings within me - People get so damned worked up about what is WE, what is SWEDISH, and what is FOREIGN and EVIL.

Ha ha! Now you are quoting me!

Frankly, I think it's about time that everyone was sat down and had it hammered into their heads that we are all cousins, and all this us vs. you crap is, well, a load of crap. We are all we. As in us.

Versteh?

What I do know is that there is no real way to win a war, only various ways of losing it.

Umm... No.

Om: My opinions will certainly change with the years, as they always have. But I am quite certain that they will not move further toward the support of the ever imperialistic institutions in the West.

I think imperialism has become a worldwide phenomena over the last 100 years. Unfortunately, it has run head-on into the digital revolution of the last 20 years, along with an ever increasing population time bomb.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

I think imperialism has become a worldwide phenomena over the last 100 years. Unfortunately, it has run head-on into the digital revolution of the last 20 years, along with an ever increasing population time bomb.

Ah, yes, that is an interesting notion I have reflected over before. Digitalization will certainly go a long way in the promotion of... Well, let's call it freedom. And equality. The problem is getting it out there, you know?

 

[TubbaBlubba]

My friend, war can be won, and often is. Modern warfare is tempered by the inability of a populace to accept images of slaughter. To recall the issue of the Romans, they imposed a language, religion, and military conscription. They won, a LOT. I suggest you research the word "Decimate".

War can be won, and that empires rise and fall is part of history. It is a kind of madness to believe that war or violence can be "fair" or "ruled". I'm sorry, war should be short, and overwhelming, and if that is not an option, seek something other than war. If the USA wanted to conquer Iraq, we could, but it would require the death of many millions, and a level of brutality that is not deemed acceptable. I would add, that in that calculation, there is nothing we want so much in Iraq that we should kill so many.

War is meant to be the rapid conquest or defense of a region, not a police action. War is terrible, but sieges are true hell. War and conflict have been a part of humanity for as long as there are fossil records; what do you believe has changed that? If an empire falls a dozen generations after a war is won, for that people it's a win. That's life, and right or wrong enter into the decision to engage or not, but not the execution of violence.

I see what you mean. What I mean is that there's never a true justification for war. "Conquest" may be fine as far as a casus belli goes, but is it ever justified? To strike down despotic regimes? At the cost of how many civillians, forced and employed by that regime?

I'm not naíve enough to think that we will ever have a world without military powers, but I really hope we'll get over petty struggles of territory, or worse, culture. There will obviously be wars against terrorist groups and the like in the future, but I hope we will never see the like of the world wars again. I truly hope so.

 

[OmCheeto]

I hope until the last dollar.

I'm actually quiet surprised for good by the forum, never thought there are so many people abroad who understand our position.

And it's good to have you here. I've never had the chance to talk to an Israeli. Only Jews. We've a slew of them here in the states. Frankly, we get along so well here that I can't tell them apart from the Muslims and Christians.*

I have had the opportunity over the last 5 years to exchange barbs with people from Jordan on another science forum. It was supposedly just one person, but the grammar and attitude changed from one post to the other. I finally decided that it might be a classroom of students practicing their skills for an English language class.

I sensed that some of the students wanted to send out messages of discontent regarding their own country, but were hesitant to go fully ballistic.

I think this is something that some of our nations take for granted. A general lack of fear of reprisal for things we say about anything. Yesterday I saw that Egypt has 17,000 political prisoners. I can only imagine that if people from Iran, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Gaza, etc, were to come out and voice their discontent over local conditions, they might disappear in the night.

So in this sense, I find silence from certain people, while not a sign of support for Israel, may signal a dissatisfaction with their own governments.

* I used to claim to be a Christian, Jew, and a Muslim, on the previously mentioned forum. Now I claim to be a Buddhistic follower of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. We're very prone to fads here in America.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

War is preferable than slavish peace.

That does NOT mean that all types of peace are slavish, but that we have no right to demand of others that they should become so squeamish of ever defending for themselves or their family.

That sort of paralyzation demand is, however, the pure evil lurking at the centre of absolute pacificm.

Hmmm... For once, I agree with you. I certainly don't want a future which is an economic slavery under the corporations, for one.

 

[Pattonias]

You know, I imagine that the discussions between our world leaders are about this convoluted.

 

[Office_Shredder]

I'm pretty convinced that the translators at those discussions make world policy up on the spot

 

[SW VandeCarr]

I'm not Jewish, but I understand there's a saying in Israel:

אם הערבים מנשקו, לא תהיה מלחמה.
אם יתפרק מנשקו ישראל, לא תהיה ישראל.

I'm not sure I got it right. I'll let someone else translate it. If no one does, I'll give my attempt.

 

[SW VandeCarr]

I am translating (roughly), not making a statement here, "If you take weapons from Arabs there will be no war. If you take weapons from Israel, there will be no Israel."

Yes. That's my understanding. Thanks

 

[tiny-tim]

I'm not Jewish, but I understand there's a saying in Israel:

אם הערבים מנשקו, לא תהיה מלחמה.
אם יתפרק מנשקו ישראל, לא תהיה ישראל.

I'm not sure I got it right. I'll let someone else translate it. If no one does, I'll give my attempt.

It means if the Arabs put down their weapons, there will be no war; if Israel puts down its weapons, there will be no Israel.

What's the point you're making? ​

 

[SW VandeCarr]

If he means that Arabs are completely at fault, I can think of better sayings to reference.

I was simply asking if I understood the saying properly. It probably better describes the state of affairs in the past (before the 1978 Camp David accords) than now. However, as you say, Hamas is still dedicated to the destruction of Israel and they are supported by Iran (which, however, is not an Arab state.).

 

[TubbaBlubba]

I heard a radio report today that IRAN is planning to send a convoy of two ships. With elite military on it, prepared to help with any means neccesary (at least that's how I interpret it).

This will not go down well, at all.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3900886,00.html First source I could dig up.

 

[Office_Shredder]

I heard a radio report today that IRAN is planning to send a convoy of two ships. With elite military on it, prepared to help with any means neccesary (at least that's how I interpret it).

This will not go down well, at all.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3900886,00.html First source I could dig up.

Do you think Israel just sinks the military escort?

 

[TubbaBlubba]

I have absolutely no idea how they will handle this situation, and I don't think it will go down well in any case.

 

[Pattonias]

I heard a radio report today that IRAN is planning to send a convoy of two ships. With elite military on it, prepared to help with any means neccesary (at least that's how I interpret it).

This will not go down well, at all.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3900886,00.html First source I could dig up.

Now if they try and run the blockade; that would be an act of war.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Now if they try and run the blockade; that would be an act of war.

Egypt will not likely let Iran pass through the Suez Canal. I think Iran is just ruffling feathers.

 

[Pattonias]

Egypt will not likely let Iran pass through the Suez Canal. I think Iran is just ruffling feathers.

Good point, I had forgotten that Egypt was also involved.

 

[tiny-tim]

Arabs blockading Gaza

(how wonderful … now Norway instead of Sweden! )

Good point, I had forgotten that Egypt was also involved.

Yes, everybody does forget that …

it's both Israelis and Arabs blockading Gaza.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Speaking of "arabs", at least from my travels in Egypt a good few years ago, Egypts frequently deny identification with "arabs", but rather identify themselves as... Egyptians.

But that's an irrelevant side note.

What I wonder is, do they blockade Gaza out of "fear" for Hamas or because they don't want to screw with Israel? I don't think it's very easy to get a good account on this, but...

 

[Pattonias]

Speaking of "arabs", at least from my travels in Egypt a good few years ago, Egypts frequently deny identification with "arabs", but rather identify themselves as... Egyptians.

But that's an irrelevant side note.

What I wonder is, do they blockade Gaza out of "fear" for Hamas or because they don't want to screw with Israel? I don't think it's very easy to get a good account on this, but...

I don't think it is fear, but they want to maintain their image as a stable nation. Weapons were being smuggled through their borders and they put a stop to it.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

I don't think it is fear, but they want to maintain their image as a stable nation. Weapons were being smuggled through their borders and they put a stop to it.

I heard something about tunnels going below the blockades, did they manage to put a stop to that too?

 

[Evo]

Locked pending cleanup.