News How Do Fuel Cuts Impact Gaza Amidst Ongoing Conflict with Israel?

[slugcountry]

The status of Gaza is far worse than being merely occupied, it is a giant prison for it's 1.5 million inhabitants. The guards have simply moved back outside the walls.

Art - I've watched this discussion pretty patiently but this is just enough. Palestinian militants send rockets into Israel from crowded civilian areas, purposefully targeting israeli civilians, and then israel gets blamed for retaliating when a palestinian civilian dies. I mean really what the hell are they supposed to do, sit idly by and wait to get killed by the next rocket? Have you ever been to the middle east? You talk like someone who is completely biased and ignorant of the reality of the situation "on the ground".

Many Israeli's are all for a Palestinian state - its the Palestinian leadership that refuses to negotiate, and publically and officially CONDONES attacking Israeli civilians.

What's happening in Palestine is surely a tragedy, and its true that the Gaza strip is nothing short of an impoverished ghetto - but its a freaking stretch to put the blame on israel, which is quite literally surrounded by openly hostile nations on every side.

Jews have been historically persecuted for thousands of years, and now we have a country and a chance to fight back. We have a right to exist. And as a member of the diaspora I could not exist without Israel. If you do not understand this fact, only further education can help you.

 

[novaa77]

Seeing as the attacks themselves are the reason for the sanctions that are the subject of this thread, the only disconcertion is that you won't support your argument for Israeli inaction, or suggest an alternative means of stopping the rocket fire on Israeli civilians.

we are just going round and round in circles here. And once again you have very conveniently ignored the question of the historic perspective. If you did It would be impossible to justify Israeli actions.

This is off-topic, you can start a different thread if you like.

The only reason I mentioned the Tibet issue was in the hope that you would see from this example the true nature of the problem in the west bank and gaza.


The Gaza Strip is not occupied. If by "revolt" you mean attacking Israeli civilians then that is the stated aim.[/QUOTE]

By revolt I mean fighting for their very existence.

 

[novaa77]

slugcountry:Art - I've watched this discussion pretty patiently but this is just enough. Palestinian militants send rockets into Israel from crowded civilian areas, purposefully targeting israeli civilians, and then israel gets blamed for retaliating when a palestinian civilian dies.

Have you ever stopped to consider why the Palestinians are sending rockets into Israel

I mean really what the hell are they supposed to do, sit idly by and wait to get killed by the next rocket? Have you ever been to the middle east? You talk like someone who is completely biased and ignorant of the reality of the situation "on the ground".

What you should do is allow the Palestinian people to get on with their lives. What you should not do is to continue battering them into submission.

Many Israeli's are all for a Palestinian state - its the Palestinian leadership that refuses to negotiate, and publically and officially CONDONES attacking Israeli civilians.

What's happening in Palestine is surely a tragedy, and its true that the Gaza strip is nothing short of an impoverished ghetto - but its a freaking stretch to put the blame on israel, which is quite literally surrounded by openly hostile nations on every side.

Again may be you should ponder over the reason for this hostility.

Jews have been historically persecuted for thousands of years, and now we have a country and a chance to fight back. We have a right to exist. And as a member of the diaspora I could not exist without Israel. If you do not understand this fact, only further edccation can help you

No one denies the Jews the right to existence, I wish the same could be said when it comes to the Israeli attitude towards the Palestinians.

On the whole a very one-sided and prejudiced view of the entire situation. Exactly the attitude that will ensure an on going conflict.

 

[Hurkyl]

A Freudian slip?? Or rare honesty?

Do you really believe those are the only two possibilities?

 

[Yonoz]

Who controls her borders?

Gotcha. Israel doesn't control the Gaza-Egypt border, and the Rafah crossing was shut down by the EU.

Who regularly bombs her? Who regularly sends tanks into 'punish' her inhabitants.

No-one.

Who decides what goods and what quantity of goods are allowed in?

What's "allowed" has been irrelevant for some time.

Who decides how much energy she is allowed?

Israel decides how much fuel and electricity it supplies, while as you have been shown the EU cut its supplies a while back (funny, I don't remember such a big deal made out of that).

The status of Gaza is far worse than being merely occupied, it is a giant prison for it's 1.5 million inhabitants. The guards have simply moved back outside the walls.

I agree its status is worse than being occupied, but there comes a time when people need to take responsibility for themselves and stop blaming all their troubles on Israel.
Oh wait, how silly of me - I'm telling this to a person who thinks all that's wrong with the world is the fault of the Jooooos.

 

[Yonoz]

In the light of this, double standard, I don't think there is much point for me to reply to the following post (which is very off-topic anyway)

They I assume you too think there is a global Jewish conspiracy.
So much for your "passion" for human rights etc.
Your motives in starting this thread are now quite clear.

...perhaps until you and some of your allies have found some new logic, new meanings to your so-called humanity, or perhaps until you guys have destroyed all who are against your ideals OR you have been destroyed by them, and as a result, have realized (albeit to late) the irony of self-defence by force/violence/intimidation.

Oh I see the irony! Antisemites arguing Israel shouldn't defend itself on account of humanism!

But unfortunately, your fate is in your hands and not mine.

How great is that?

 

[Yonoz]

Seeing as the attacks themselves are the reason for the sanctions that are the subject of this thread, the only disconcertion is that you won't support your argument for Israeli inaction, or suggest an alternative means of stopping the rocket fire on Israeli civilians.

we are just going round and round in circles here. And once again you have very conveniently ignored the question of the historic perspective. If you did It would be impossible to justify Israeli actions.

I'll take this as admission that in this non-"historical" perspective you agree the actions are justified, and I think you'll find that looking at this from a "historical" perspective justifies much more than economic sanctions.

The only reason I mentioned the Tibet issue was in the hope that you would see from this example the true nature of the problem in the west bank and gaza.

We do not share the same "truth", you're going to have to work harder than that and support your arguments with sources. So far, I haven't seen any contention to the fact that the Gaza Strip is not occupied by Israel, thus it is very much unlike Tibet which is occupied by China.

By revolt I mean fighting for their very existence.

Does "fighting for their very existence" mean firing rockets at Israeli civilians?

 

[Hurkyl]

Its disconcerting that this post has been reduced to a discussion on what targets are justified for attack. Can't you see beyond this violence?

Rather than guess what you mean, I'll kindly ask you to restate it.

I have very clearly stated that I do not condone attacks on either Israeli or Palestinian civliians. How ever I sense a great reluctance on your part to do the same. Can you explain this double standard?

I will happily accept as an axiom that civilians should not be the targeted.

But since it might become relevant, I would like to point out that "civilians should not be targeted" is not synonymous with "militants should not be targeted when civilian casualties are possible".

It also seems to me that you are either unable or unwilling to look at this problem from a historical point of view. There is no point in carrying on about the justification of attacks unless you are willing to look at this problem from the correct perspective.

From this and your subsequent posts, it sounds like your argument boils down to:

This situation vaguely resembles Chinese action in Tibet. Therefore, the two must be identical in all relevant ways.​

That is certainly not the "correct perspective". 'Understanding by analogy' is no substitute for understanding the actual thing, and is an incredibly common source for many error.

Look at it this way -- if you could actually prove that

What is happening in the west bank and gaza is ... to take over the land by military might and then toture the locals into submission and quell every kind of revolt against the oppressors by use of brutal and excessive force.

then why wouldn't you just use that as your condemnation of Israel? What purpose could your analogy possibly have?


Of course, it is quite presumptuous to state this as fact when it is a primary point of contention. After all, don't the Israeli's claim that they are acting to defend themselves from the attacks of militants and terrorist groups? Reviewing the thread, I notice you have not said anything to justify your claims...


I notice you believe:
(1) Israeli should not take any action to defend themself from militants.
(2) Israel is attempting to conquer Palestinian land.
May I ask which came first? Furthermore, is your belief in either of these statements the cause of your belief in the other?

 

[mjsd]

They I assume you too think there is a global Jewish conspiracy.
So much for your "passion" for human rights etc.
Your motives in starting this thread are now quite clear.

I do not understand how one can reach that kind of conclusion; especially for something that shouldn't be viewed as just a "yes or no" OR an "either-or" scenario although, on many occasions, you have posted many "either-or" questions so far (the act of which has been debunked by others heavily). The world is a very complicated place (which I think we all agreed), and as a result it is unhelpful to just appeal to the idea that it is either black or white.


If you do not appreciate the fact that I started this thread with a good intention, then so be it. I don't expect everyone or anyone to agree with me, just as you shouldn't expect others to agree with you. I shall leave it to others on this Forum to judge.

What is more important (and has often been forgotten in these perpetual debates) is that those who are suffering continue to suffer. You may say cutting a few thousands of litres of petrol supply is hardly going to hurt anyone, but the reality is that it does. Even in developed countries, a small rise in petrol price be it by 20c or 50c per litre it is going to hurt those middle to lower income earners big time especially when they have mortgages, several kids and elderly relatives.

 

[Art]

Hurkyl. You seem to base your argument on Israel's right to defend herself but this is a false axiom. It is the Palestinians who are under attack and who are attempting to defend themselves which due to their severely limited capacity is hardly more than a token resistance.

I have posted numerous sources to prove my contention that Israel is the main aggressor by any metric you care to mention be it number of civilians killed, land seized, property stolen and destroyed, acts of brutality, war crimes, tonnage of bombs, breaches of international law; take your pick.

 

[Art]

Oh I see the irony! Antisemites arguing Israel shouldn't defend itself on account of humanism!

As I keep pointing out to you to accuse people who sympathise with the Palestinians of being anti-Semitic is an oxymoron. The Arabs are Semites most Jews living in Israel are not! It is the Zionists such as yourself who are anti-Semitic.

 

[Yonoz]

I do not understand how one can reach that kind of conclusion; especially for something that shouldn't be viewed as just a "yes or no" OR an "either-or" scenario although, on many occasions, you have posted many "either-or" questions so far (the act of which has been debunked by others heavily). The world is a very complicated place (which I think we all agreed), and as a result it is unhelpful to just appeal to the idea that it is either black or white.

Uh-huh.
Since you've gone off-topic to discuss this anyway, how about simply answering the question: do you agree with the following statement?

Israel through it's friends in the US gov't and media has created an Orwellian world where they, whilst brutal oppressors, are painted as the good guys and their victims are labelled as the bad guys who are constantly remonstrated with for not behaving like good little victims and dying quietly without fuss.

If you do not appreciate the fact that I started this thread with a good intention, then so be it. I don't expect everyone or anyone to agree with me, just as you shouldn't expect others to agree with you. I shall leave it to others on this Forum to judge.

If you're leaving it for others on this forum to judge, why not answer the question? Have you something to hide from us?

What is more important (and has often been forgotten in these perpetual debates) is that those who are suffering continue to suffer.

I haven't forgotten that, and I believe that if the Hamas leadership in Gaza were to comply with the Israeli government's request for ending the rocket fire those who are suffering will be better off.
They would be better off yet if they acknowledge Israel's right of existence and turn to a legitimate form of struggle.

You may say cutting a few thousands of litres of petrol supply is hardly going to hurt anyone, but the reality is that it does.

How did you reach that conclusion? I've already told you the very first source you provided distinctly says "cuts in supply are not being felt by Gazans".
Stop this silly regression of the thread. Repeating a lie does not make it true, doesn't matter how strongly you would like that.

Even in developed countries, a small rise in petrol price be it by 20c or 50c per litre it is going to hurt those middle to lower income earners big time especially when they have mortgages, several kids and elderly relatives.

Then do you disagree with any form of economic sanctions - like those set on Apartheid South Africa? That's another one of my question you ignored.

 

[Yonoz]

As I keep pointing out to you to accuse people who sympathise with the Palestinians of being anti-Semitic is an oxymoron. The Arabs are Semites most Jews living in Israel are not!

I sympathise with the Palestinians, Art, and I don't accuse myself of being antisemitic. You, however, believe you live in "an orwellian world" created by "Israel and her friends in the US".

 

[Art]

I sympathise with the Palestinians, Art, and I don't accuse myself of being antisemitic. You, however, believe you live in "an orwellian world" created by "Israel and her friends in the US".

If you represent the sympathetic face of Israel then God help them from the unsympathetic Zionists.

On the subject of creating an Orwellian view of Israel's role in the ME. Are you familiar with the function of AIPAC, B’nai B’rith and Hadassah in the US? Basically they are investment vehicles. They invest hundreds of millions of dollars in promoting pro-Israeli candidates and lobbying support for pro-Israeli policies. In return for their outlay Israel receives billions of of US tax payers US$ in financial and military aid and of course totally pro-Israel policies.

Israel's own contribution to the PR campaign apart from the lies etc. is to make sure they have spokesmen with nice American accents to go before the western media so as to create a 'connection' with the audience who automatically 'relate' to them. The Palestinians on the other hand have neither the money nor the PR skills nor the access to the media nor in general the language skills to compete and so the view presented to the world in general and Americans in particular of the Israeli - Palestinian conflict is the grossly distorted image fabricated by the Zionists and their hirelings.

p.s. As you now finally appear to concede the Arabs are Semites I presume you will no longer be using the anti-Semite smear in this thread unless of course you wish to do so in the correct context in relation to Zionists.

An example of; If the messenger will not deliver the message you want then shoot the messenger.

BBC NEWS
Israel minister: Sack ElBaradei
A senior Israeli minister has called for the sacking of Mohamed ElBaradei, the head of the UN nuclear watchdog.

Deputy PM Shaul Mofaz said the Egyptian head of the International Atomic Energy Agency had endangered world peace by neglecting Iran's nuclear programme.

His comments come days before the IAEA is to publish its latest Iran report.

Mr ElBaradei has said Iran's nuclear programme is not an immediate threat and if it wanted to build a nuclear bomb it would need years to do so.

The IAEA report will help determine whether the United Nations imposes a third set of sanctions on Tehran.

"The policies followed by ElBaradei endanger world peace. His irresponsible attitude of sticking his head in the sand over Iran's nuclear programme should lead to his impeachment," Mr Mofaz said during a visit to Washington.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7085213.stm And bear in mind while reading this Israel will not let the IAEA have so much as a sniff of her own nuclear program.

More of the same old 'Do as I say don't do as I do'

 

[Yonoz]

On the subject of creating an Orwellian view of Israel's role in the ME. Are you familiar with the function of AIPAC, B’nai B’rith and Hadassah in the US? Basically they are investment vehicles. They invest hundreds of millions of dollars in promoting pro-Israeli candidates and lobbying support for pro-Israeli policies. In return for their outlay Israel receives billions of of US tax payers US$ in financial and military aid and of course totally pro-Israel policies.

Israel's own contribution to the PR campaign apart from the lies etc. is to make sure they have spokesmen with nice American accents to go before the western media so as to create a 'connection' with the audience who automatically 'relate' to them. The Palestinians on the other hand have neither the money nor the PR skills nor in general the language skills to compete and so the view presented to the world of the Israeli - Palestinian conflict is the grossly distorted image fabricated by the Zionists and their hirelings.

You still haven't explained how this created an orwellian world.
Israel does not contribute to lobbying. There are US Jewish organisations that deal in a whole variety of matters their contributors deem worthy. It is the democratic right (and some would say duty) of the citizens of a democracy to promote their ideals and interests (as long as those are made public). Lobbyism isn't unique to the American Jewry. There are many other US lobby groups. Believe it or not, we have lobbyists in Israel too (and my opinion of them does not differ much from my opinion of Jewish American lobbyists). You're Irish (if I rememeber correctly) - do you view Irish lobbying in the US in the same light? I'm sure you have lobbyists in the ROI. Do you think the Catholic Church does not lobby Irish legislators? How's that poor girl's abortion battle going? Oh that's right, she had to go to the Supreme Court - too bad your legislative arm is controlled by those orwellian Catholics.
Israel and the lobbyists disagree occassionaly, such as in the case of the Saudi arms deal, so it's clear they operate independently of Israel.
It should also be apparent by the latest power shifts in the Middle East that US (and EU) support of Israel, Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia is largely dictated by national interests. Besides, the US arms industry has a very powerful lobby. It just so happens that their interests and those of Israel converge, to a certain extent. Naturally Israeli dependence on US arms weakens Israeli independence and has meant many cutbacks to the military industries here, such as in the case of the Kfir fighter jet project.
As for those PR complaints - once again you show your criticism is limited to Jews. You've obviously never heard Hanan Ashrawi speak.

There are many things wrong with the world, Art, and focusing the blame on Jews is quite simply antisemitism.

 

[Art]

You still haven't explained how this created an orwellian world.
Israel does not contribute to lobbying. There are US Jewish organisations that deal in a whole variety of matters their contributors deem worthy. It is the democratic right (and some would say duty) of the citizens of a democracy to promote their ideals and interests (as long as those are made public). Lobbyism isn't unique to the American Jewry. There are many other US lobby groups. Believe it or not, we have lobbyists in Israel too (and my opinion of them does not differ much from my opinion of Jewish American lobbyists). You're Irish (if I rememeber correctly) - do you view Irish lobbying in the US in the same light? I'm sure you have lobbyists in the ROI. Do you think the Catholic Church does not lobby Irish legislators? How's that poor girl's abortion battle going? Oh that's right, she had to go to the Supreme Court - too bad your legislative arm is controlled by those orwellian Catholics.
Israel and the lobbyists disagree occassionaly, such as in the case of the Saudi arms deal, so it's clear they operate independently of Israel.
It should also be apparent by the latest power shifts in the Middle East that US (and EU) support of Israel, Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia is dictated by national interests. So is the industrial support. Besides the US arms industry has a very powerful lobby. It just so happens that their interests and those of Israel converge, to a certain extent. Naturally Israeli dependence on US arms weakens Israeli independence and has meant many cutbacks to the military industries here, such as in the case of the Kfir fighter jet project.
As for those PR complaints - once again you show your criticism is limited to Jews. You've obviously never heard Hanan Ashrawi speak.

There are many things wrong with the world, Art, and blaming them on Jews is called antisemitism.

I'll deal first with Orwellian.

An attitude and a policy of control by propaganda, misinformation, denial of truth, and manipulation of the past

Yep mine sounds like a correct use of the term to me.

In relation to the rest of your post. There are indeed many things wrong with the world Yonoz and I try to address as many of them as I can given limited time and resources Perhaps you missed the myriad comments I have posted in relation to other matters in other threads totally unrelated to Israel and Jewry (who btw I think you do a major disservice by insisting on using as a synonym for Zionism, to me they are completely different things) but this is a thread about Israel and her relations with the Palestinians.

If you are under some illusion that I think the EU or any other world organisation or individual country for that matter is a paragon of virtue then please let me correct your false impression. I do not.

You mentioned Ireland. If it engendered interest in this forum I would be more than happy to start a thread in relation to the corrupt, lying, thieving PM Bertie Ahern, we currently have running the country but unfortunately Ireland is too small an influence in world affairs for many people outside of our 26 counties to be interested or care whereas the actions and attitudes of Israel and the US have global consequences. I can assure you I would never let nationalism blind me to what is right and what is wrong. I see myself as a citizen of a global community and believe Nationalism is the root of nearly all wars.

p.s. let's try this again - most Jews in Israel are NOT Semites, most Semites ARE Arab. If you are determined to find a label for me then if you like you can call me an anti-Zionist, a badge I'd wear with pride

 

[Yonoz]

There are indeed many things wrong with the world Yonoz and I try to address as many of them as I can given limited time and resources

Finally, a shred of realism. There is a reason why I recommended you read Leviathan and The Social Contract. May I remind you that by simply posting criticism on an internet forum you are not addressing anything but the promotion of hatred.
The people who make up all those entities you criticize so very much are also trying to address as many of the wrongs of the world as they can. Only they don't settle for posting on internet forums - they actually get out there and make very difficult choices. The staff of the IDF, for example, are trying to make sure Israeli civilians can live in safety. They don't have the time and resources to attack the ones endangering these civilians only when it is convenient for the rest of the world, and they certainly don't have the time and resources to right all the historical wrongs the Palestinians have suffered. No one can take care of themselves on their own, let alone others.
That is why we are organised in states - we take our combined resources and try and put them to common goals. What the Palestinians need to do is get organised and work towards their common goals. Instead, they're too busy in factional disputes and power struggles. One of the factors keeping them from achieving that is the constant belief that all that is wrong is the fault of Israelis. Another is Iranian intervention aimed at weakening moderates and strengthening fundmentalists.
Some Palestinians have figured this out: It's Not You, It's Us

Gaza, as Hamad sees her, is a city that is groaning, despondent, pitiful and wounded (we are using his expressions). The occupation is over says Hamad. The negative processes which are being experienced by the Authority are the fault of the Palestinians and they are responsible for remedying them. Israel is no longer in the Gaza Strip, and they must take responsibility for the situation. To cite from the article: "I don't want to expose the occupation its malevolence and crimes for everyone, great and small, is already aware of it. This time I'm interested precisely in examining ourselves and our mistakes. We're always hesitant about discussing our mistakes candidly. We've become used to, from time immemorial, to ascribe the blame to pre-arranged pegs for anarchy, bedlam, groundless killing, theft of lands, disputes between clans...what does all this have to do with the occupation?? And indeed we have already become used to blaming our failures on others.

Before Israel's foundation, we were also divided. When some hard-line Zionists were acting insensibly - as are some Palestinians now - the rest handed them over to the British. Ben-Gurion would rather lose precious arms and lives than share power with extremists. This seeming acts of Jews betraying each other were difficult and caused much division, even to this day. Some still consider them "wrong", but they were necessary for the formation of a state.

When you show support for irrational extremists you are hurting the Palestinian cause, unless you share the extremists' view that the Palestinian cause is the complete destruction of Israel, and not the formation of a state.

You mentioned Ireland. If it engendered interest in this forum I would be more than happy to start a thread in relation to the corrupt, lying, thieving PM Bertie Ahern, we currently have running the country but unfortunately Ireland is too small an influence in world affairs for many people to be interested or care whereas the actions and attitudes of Israel and the US have global consequences.

Charity starts at home. There is a concept in modern Judaism called Tikkun Olam - "repairing the world". The concept is that of concentric circles, the innermost representing one's self, the next one's family, followed by community, city, nation and the world. Tikkun Olam works by working from the inside out. If you're happy with your self, it radiates outwards to your family, and from there to your community etc. I'm secular, but very fond of this concept. That is the reason for my previous suggestion by PM.

 

[Art]

I disagree. Public opinion is very important to Israel and so it is useful to have internet forums such as this to counter Israel's Orwellian propaganda.

If citizens of countries such as the USA began to seriously question how their tax dollars are being spent supplying armaments such as cluster bombs to a country which then uses them in an act of spite against a civilian population and questions the right of one country to seize territory at will then Israeli policy will be forced to change.

The reason why groups such as Islamic Jihad flourish in Palestine is directly attributable to Israel's policy of targeted assassinations (murder) of the more moderate secular leaders which resulted in a political vacuum which the fundamentalists have been only too happy to fill.

If Israel were to negotiate the creation of a Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders with compensation or the right to return for the land taken previous to that I am sure some extremists would be unhappy on both sides but they would be marginalised. But as you know Israel has no serious wish at this time for genuine negotiations as she prefers to first complete her annexations which can then be presented as a fait accompli to strengthen her hand in any final solution settlement. Hence her pre-conditions of 'give us everything we want and then we'll talk to you' Duh! Doesn't leave a lot to negotiate over does it?

Fatah fell for that one before. They agreed to recognise Israel and did Israel reciprocate? Like hell they did.. 'Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me' (for GWB )

However Hamas is nowhere near as intransigent as Israel would have one believe. They have said;

Attitude to Israel: However, Hamas's Ismail Haniya, the prime minister of the unity government until it was dissolved in June 2007, has spoken of a long-term truce with Israel if Israel withdraws from territory occupied in 1967.

To pretend only the Palestinians hold extremists in their ranks is an example of the Orwellian twisting of the truth I referred to. Perhaps you should take a look at some of the op-eds and letters from right wing commentators in your Israeli press . Many make people such as Idi Amin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idi_Amin seem like a pacifist in comparison.

I take it from your comment 'charity begins at home' to mean you would prefer if I devoted 100% of my time to Irish affairs. Well the good news is I can multi-task so I can criticize my own gov't here and still find time to address global issues

To further prove my point re Orwellian tactics you denied my claim of regular Israeli military incursions into the Gaza strip so from the Israeli press I find

IDF reservists: Hamas men fight like soldiers, not terrorists
By Amos Harel, Haaretz Correspondent
tags: Hamas, Gaza, IDF, Israel

Reserve-duty paratroopers who completed a month of duty in the Gaza Strip last week say that facing militant groups such as Hamas was like taking part in a "mini-war."

During the patrol company's operations deep in Palestinian territory, four Hamas militants and one Israel Defense Forces soldier, Sergeant-Major (Res.) Ehud Efrati, were killed. "The people we killed weren't terrorists, they were soldiers," an officer in the company told Haaretz.

"In a direct confrontation, the IDF has superiority over them, but in all parameters - training, equipment quality, operational discipline - we are facing an army, not gangs," he said.

"On the professional level, Hamas in the Gaza Strip is nothing like the terrorists we dealt with before. We saw the bodies of their men after the incidents. They had elastic bands on their pant legs. How many reservists do you know in the IDF who are that well kitted out, with elastics on their pants?"

In a move fairly rare for reservists, the paratroopers were part of the offensive operations in the Strip. For the past several months, the IDF has been carrying out raids a few kilometers into Gaza on a regular basis. Within the space of about two weeks, the company had three live-fire incidents with Hamas - a lot for a reserve force that ostensibly was called up for ongoing security operations.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/921831.html

btw I missed your comment earlier re the Rafah crossing so just to correct your misinformation regarding that item,

The Rafah Border Crossing (Arabic: تقاطع حدود رفح, Hebrew: מעבר רפיח‎) is an international border crossing between Egyptian and Palestinian-controlled Rafah. It was built by the Israeli and Egyptian governments after the 1979 Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty and 1982 Israeli withdrawal from the Sinai Peninsula, and was managed by the Israel Airports Authority until it was evacuated on 11 September 2005 as part of Israel's unilateral disengagement plan. It has since become the mission of the European Union Border Assistance Mission Rafah (EUBAM) to monitor the crossing.

The Rafah crossing was opened on 25 November 2005 and operated nearly daily until 25 June 2006[1]. Since that time it has been closed by Israeli authorities on 86% of days due to security reasons[1]. It was not opened for the export of goods[1]. In June 2007, the crossing was closed entirely after the Hamas takeover of the Gaza Strip.

 

[Yonoz]

I disagree. Public opinion is very important to Israel and so it is useful to have internet forums such as this to counter Israel's Orwellian propaganda.

In other words, your intention is to spread hatred.
Have you ever read anything by Orwell?

If citizens of countries such as the USA began to seriously question how their tax dollars are being spent supplying armaments such as cluster bombs to a country which then uses them in an act of spite against a civilian population and questions the right of one country to seize territory at will then Israeli policy will be forced to change.

So any Israeli PR is wrong wrong wrong but someone of pure heart such as yourself will tell the citizens of the US how to conduct their foreign policy.
I didn't see you lecturing Perham on what his nation does with their munitions.

The reason why groups such as Islamic Jihad flourish in Palestine is directly attributable to Israel's policy of targeted assassinations (murder) of the more moderate secular leaders which resulted in a political vacuum which the fundamentalists have been only too happy to fill.

Again Art, you have to somehow support these statements - I'd like you to show this "direct attribution". I believe you'll find these groups existed long before targeted assassinations were carried out.

If Israel were to negotiate the creation of a Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders with compensation or the right to return for the land taken previous to that I am sure some extremists would be unhappy on both sides but they would be marginalised.

Oh. You're sure. Well that changes everything...

But as you know Israel has no serious wish at this time for genuine negotiations as she prefers to first complete her annexations which can then be presented as a fait accompli to strengthen her hand in any final solution settlement. Hence her pre-conditions of 'give us everything we want and then we'll talk to you' Duh! Doesn't leave a lot to negotiate over does it?

The only pre-conditions are the acceptance of Israel's right of existence and the cessation of attacks on civilians. Do you think that's too much to ask, or do you believe it's acceptable that Israel negotiate with the Palestinians while its civilians are being attacked?

To pretend only the Palestinians hold extremists in their ranks is an example of the Orwellian twisting of the truth I referred to. Perhaps you should take a look at some of the op-eds and letters from right wing commentators in your Israeli press . Many make people such as Idi Amin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idi_Amin seem like a pacifist in comparison.

No one is claiming there are no Israeli extremists, but here they operate within the democratic framework - they don't rule like in Gaza. Those op-eds and letters are a good argument for the support of Israel. The more haters (like yourself) we encounter, the further right our society leans.
That's the first source you presented in a while, and it has nothing to do with the topic...

During the recent Fatah - Hamas fight Israel and the US did their best to ferment a civil war in the Palestinian territories by generously supplying arms to Fatah, hardly the move of a peace loving people now is it?

You have it the wrong way around: Israel and the US did their best to keep Hamas from performing a coup d'etat.

I take it from your comment 'charity begins at home' to mean you would prefer if I devoted 100% of my time to Irish affairs. Well the good news is I can multi-task so I can criticize my own gov't here and still find time to address global issues

No, I meant you should step away from the keyboard and do some personal reflections vis a vis your personal goals - what you want to achieve etc.
Can you show me an example of the said multi-tasking?

To further prove my point re Orwellian tactics you denied my claim of regular Israeli military incursions into the Gaza strip so from the Israeli press I find http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/921831.html

What claim? Do you mean this:

Who regularly bombs her? Who regularly sends tanks into 'punish' her inhabitants.

As you can see no-one regularly bombs her and no-one sends in tanks to 'punish' her inhabitants, so I don't know what "claim of regular Israeli military incursions" you're claiming I denied.

 

[Art]

In other words, your intention is to spread hatred.

In your mind 'truth' translates into 'hate'?? Oh well <sigh>

Have you ever read anything by Orwell?

yes, thanks for asking

So any Israeli PR is wrong wrong wrong but someone of pure heart such as yourself will tell the citizens of the US how to conduct their foreign policy.
I didn't see you lecturing Perham on what his nation does with their munitions.

Again you're exposing your mindset tut tut. I wouldn't dream of telling the US how to conduct their foreign policy even if I could. I do like to try and present them with the true facts so they can make their own minds up though.

Again Art, you have to somehow support these statements - I'd like you to show this "direct attribution". I believe you'll find these groups existed long before targeted assassinations were carried out.

Simple logic. The leadership positions weren't vacant and so weren't available to fill until the incumbents were murdered

Oh. You're sure. Well that changes everything...

Maybe I'm wrong and the extremists won't be unhappy but that's a good thing isn't it

The only pre-conditions are the acceptance of Israel's right of existence and the cessation of attacks on civilians. Do you think that's too much to ask, or do you believe it's acceptable that Israel negotiate with the Palestinians while its civilians are being attacked?

I personally think both sides should stand down to allow talks to take place but seeing as how the Palestinians' elected representatives haven't been invited to the party that seems unlikely to happen. As for recognition as a pre-condition, as I already pointed out Fatah already fell for that one.

No one is claiming there are no Israeli extremists, but here they operate within the democratic framework - they don't rule like in Gaza. Those op-eds and letters are a good argument for the support of Israel. The more haters (like yourself) we encounter, the further right our society leans.
That's the first source you presented in a while, and it has nothing to do with the topic...

No they don't! They build illegal settlements and snipe at Palestinians. Strange sort of democracy you have if these actions are contained within it's structures. Oh and of course some serve with the IDF where they get to live out their sick fantasies.

And please quit with the 'haters' nonsense. I'm sure that must breach the forum's guidelines. I don't hate you or any other Israeli. I do hate many of the things your gov't has done and is doing. There's a big difference you know.

You have it the wrong way around: Israel and the US did their best to keep Hamas from performing a coup d'etat .

Truly Orwellian. Hamas WON the election by a landslide but when they try to take power you call it a coup d'etat. Nice one Yonoz

No, I meant you should step away from the keyboard and do some personal reflections vis a vis your personal goals - what you want to achieve etc.
Can you show me an example of the said multi-tasking?

Your concern for me is touching but misplaced. I'd hate for you to have no-one to correct your inaccuracies.

What claim? Do you mean this:

As you can see no-one regularly bombs her and no-one sends in tanks to 'punish' her inhabitants, so I don't know what "claim of regular Israeli military incursions" you're claiming I denied.

Yes I guess they walk in each time without armoured support to shake hands, introduce themselves around and see if there are any good parties happening. I suppose the guns are just for show. Though I was thinking more about the 'house demolition' policy when I referred to punishment.

I'm curious if the shoe was on the other foot and Palestine enjoyed the military superiority you now do, if Palestinian soldiers regularly crossed into Israel would you be so blase?

Air strikes

Israeli missile strike kills three Gaza men-medics

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L04337990.htm

Israeli Missile Strikes Kill Four Palestinians in Northern Gaza
By VOA News
04 November 2007

http://www.voanews.com/english/2007-11-04-voa5.cfm

Israeli missile strike kills two Palestinians

Fred Attewill and agencies
Thursday September 27, 2007
Guardian Unlimited

Two Palestinians were killed by Israeli forces in Gaza today, bringing the death toll to 11 in the last 24 hours.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,2178154,00.html etc etc etc
Sounds pretty regular and pretty punishing to me don't you think so?

 

[Yonoz]

In your mind 'truth' translates into 'hate'?? Oh well <sigh>

If telling the "truth" means claiming "Israel and its friends in the US have created an orwellian world" and that "Israel invests in lobby groups" then it translates into hate in my mind.

yes, thanks for asking

Do you feel the world in which we live resembles the world portrayed by Orwell in his literature?

Again you're exposing your mindset tut tut. I wouldn't dream of telling the US how to conduct their foreign policy even if I could.

Right.

I do like to try and present them with the true facts so they can make their own minds up though.

We've seen the validity of your "true facts".

Simple logic. The leadership positions weren't vacant and so weren't available to fill until the incumbents were murdered

That does not constitute direct attribution. There's a reason why those incumbents were "murdered" in the first place.

Maybe I'm wrong and the extremists won't be unhappy but that's a good thing isn't it

Maybe you're wrong and the extremists - with whome you argue Israel should negotiate without any preconditions - will deliver on their repeated promises to continue working to "liberate" every inch of Israel until it ceases to exist - I suppose you consider that a good thing too.

I personally think both sides should stand down to allow talks to take place but seeing as how the Palestinians' elected representatives haven't been invited to the party that seems unlikely to happen.

On the contrary, the Palestinians' elected representatives have been very much invited if they meet those preconditions. You don't go to a party wearing improper attire.

As for recognition as a pre-condition, as I already pointed out Fatah already fell for that one.

What does that mean?

No they don't! They build illegal settlements and snipe at Palestinians. Strange sort of democracy you have if these actions are contained within it's structures.

We have a very liberal legal system, that has sentenced many Jewish extremists to prison sentences.

Oh and of course some serve with the IDF where they get to live out their sick fantasies.

This exposes the folly of your next comment:

I don't hate you or any other Israeli.

Right.

Truly Orwellian. Hamas WON the election by a landslide but when they try to take power you call it a coup d'etat. Nice one Yonoz

According to the Palestinian constitution, the President is Commander-in-Chief of the Security Forces. Hamas won elections that were solely to the legislative body. Their violent takeover of Gaza in which they routed the Security Forces is akin to the US Congress overthrowing the President. It is very much a coup d'etat by all definitions.

Your concern for me is touching but misplaced. I'd hate for you to have no-one to correct your inaccuracies.

I'm still waiting for an example of said multitasking. So far I see your criticism is all but exclusive of Israel and Jews.

Yes I guess they walk in each time without armoured support to shake hands, introduce themselves around and see if there are any good parties happening. I suppose the guns are just for show. Though I was thinking more about the 'house demolition' policy when I referred to punishment.

So it's agreed - no one sends tanks into punish anyone and the only ones carrying out regular bombings are the Palestinian militants.

I'm curious if the shoe was on the other foot and Palestine enjoyed the military superiority you now do, if Palestinian soldiers regularly crossed into Israel would you be so blase?

As I previously stated there are plenty of IDF installations and forces around the Gaza Strip. Though I still think attacks on these are unjustified, they are certainly more acceptable than firing rockets at civilians.

Air strikes http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L04337990.htm
http://www.voanews.com/english/2007-11-04-voa5.cfm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,2178154,00.html etc etc etc
Sounds pretty regular and pretty punishing to me don't you think so?

No, it sounds like self defense - why don't we look at the articles:

An Israeli military spokesman confirmed that an aircraft had fired at three men who had just launched rockets into southern Israel.

Israel's military says an aircraft fired at three men in northern Gaza who had just launched rockets into southern Israel.

Israel launched a missile strike near the town of Beit Hanoun early this morning in response to Palestinian rockets that were fired into Israel. Hospital doctors said two people were killed and five wounded.

 

[novaa77]

Yonoz:We do not share the same "truth", you're going to have to work harder than that and support your arguments with sources. So far, I haven't seen any contention to the fact that the Gaza Strip is not occupied by Israel...

Technically it is true that the west bank and gaza are not occupied by Israel but..

Israel tightens grip on West Bank and Gaza
By Chris Marsden

Israel’s latest military incursion into the West Bank, reoccupying Nablus and hunting down Palestinian activists, is once again justified as a response to the latest suicide bombing. But this stands reality on its head. For Israel has, to all intents and purposes, proclaimed military rule over the entire Palestinian Authority and merely has to decide where to next send in the tanks and helicopters—Jenin, Ramallah, Bethlehem, or the Gaza Strip. During such raids or preceding them, various Palestinian leaders or militants are assassinated, with the aim of provoking the next young man to strap explosives to his body and kill and maim Israeli civilians so that the Israeli Defence Forces may “retaliate”.

And...

The Peace Now organisation has issued reports detailing the expansion of Zionist settlements, despite pledges made by the Israeli government to halt their growth. The expansion is most significant in the Gaza Strip because of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon’s proposed “unilateral separation” initiative, which promises the removal of Israeli settlements there by 2005 combined with a land grab annexing half of the occupied West Bank permanently to Israel.

Even recently released Israeli government statistics are forced to acknowledge settlement growth, but downplay its true extent.

Currently, around 8,000 Jewish settlers occupy around 40 percent of the Gaza Strip, leaving 1.3 million Palestinians the remaining 60 percent.

According to Peace Now figures, in March, April and May an additional 455,000 square meters of construction and preparation of infrastructure took place in the settlements. Around 265,000 square meters were added to the settlements in the West Bank, and around 190,000 square meters in the Gaza Strip. Throughout the Occupied Territories, there are around 3,100 housing blocs being built, in addition to the preparation of areas for construction of thousands of further housing units.

Most of these settlement areas are widening to new agricultural lands.

Hurkyl:I notice you believe:
(1) Israeli should not take any action to defend themself from militants.
(2) Israel is attempting to conquer Palestinian land.

"Attempting" to conquer...
LOL, Thats a good one

 

[Yonoz]

Technically it is true that the west bank and gaza are not occupied by Israel but..

No one claimed the West Bank isn't occupied. The Gaza Strip, however, is not occupied. The article you're quoting is from 29 July 2004, before the implementation of the disengagement plan in which all Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip were removed, and the military was deployed outside it. This shows that despite the reported Jewish settler population growth in the Gaza Strip, the State of Israel did remove every last settler within less than a year of the initial implementation. As a result, the militants in Gaza took over the former settlements, completely scorching what was left - including synagogues and perfectly usable agricultural infrastructure - and the settlements were turned into training camps for the various militant factions. Rather than feed and house the starving and the shelterless and create a model on which to base the future Palestinian state, they chose to perpetuate violence and poverty.

So you pretty much disproved the second point Hurkyl mentioned you believe.

 

[novaa77]

Hurkyl:I notice you believe:
(1) Israeli should not take any action to defend themself from militants.
(2) Israel is attempting to conquer Palestinian land.
May I ask which came first?

No point in beating around the bush with who attacked whom first, right to defend myself etc...

The Birth of Israel: Myths and Realities
By Simha Flapan


The official Zionist story is oft told: Palestine was barren and largely uninhabited; the Zionist leadership agreed to the U.N. partition of Palestine in 1947 into Arab and Jewish states; the Arabs rejected partition and declared war on the newborn Israeli state; the Palestinians left their homes voluntarily despite efforts by Jewish leaders to persuade them to stay; Israel continues to work for peace and regional security, but the Arabs do not respond positively.

In The Birth of Israel Simha Flapan charges that these historical truths are propaganda and generated myths. Drawing on extensive research and recently declassified Israeli documents, he reconstructs the real events surrounding Israel’s birth in 1948. He shows that Zionist acceptance of the U.N. partition plan was a tactical move in an overall strategy aimed at first thwarting the creation of a Palestinian state in collaboration with Emir Abdullah and, secondly, increasing the territory assigned by the U.N. to the Jewish state. Palestinians’ expulsion from their homes, he asserts, was prompted by Israeli political and military leaders, who believed that Zionist colonization and statehood necessitated the transfer of Palestinian Arabs to Arab countries to maintain a Jewish majority. Flapan demonstrates that Israel exploited the 1948 war for territorial gain and refused to make concessions.Flapan’s work is an excellent study of the use of propaganda. He notes that these myths were central to the creation of structures of thinking of paramount importance in shaping Israel’s policy for almost four decades.

Mr. Flapan wants to give peace a chance to succeed. He feels strongly that the triumph of propaganda has obstructed peace forces in Israel. He calls for a fresh approach and a new outlook. Israel, Flapan contends, is in the midst of a deep moral, social, economic and political crisis, surely to be exacerbated without dramatic policy change. Israel struggles between opposing visions--on the one hand an enlightened democratic state, on the other, a fundamentalist militarist society. The outcome will have a significant impact on the Palestinian’s future as well as on prospects for regional peace.

also...

Revisionist studies by Israeli scholars, published recently here and in Britain, have been reinterpreting many of the events surrounding the creation of the state of Israel in the years 1947 to 1949. In general, the new books tend to place greater blame on Israel for the Palestinian problem - as well as for the turmoil, the human cost and the continued political impasse in the Middle East - than have most earlier

Revisionist studies by Israeli scholars, published recently here and in Britain, have been reinterpreting many of the events surrounding the creation of the state of Israel in the years 1947 to 1949. In general, the new books tend to place greater blame on Israel for the Palestinian problem - as well as for the turmoil, the human cost and the continued political impasse in the Middle East - than have most earlier Israeli studies.

Three books, all of which have exploited newly available documents, raise a host of questions about the period when Israel came into existence as an independent state, fighting a victorious war over neighboring Arab countries while roughly 700,000 Palestinian left their homes. Many of the Palestinians ended up in refugee districts, where they remain, their sense of grievance a contributing factor in the violence in the occupied territiories that began in December.

One of the books, ''The Birth of Israel: Myths and Realities'' by Simha Flapan, is viewed by Middle East specialists here as militantly anti-Zionist, a book designed to erode one of the major Western perceptions of the Israeli-Arab conflict - the notion that Israel has always held itself to a higher moral standard than its neighbors did.

 

[Yonoz]

Then why are you "beating around the bush"?

 

[mjsd]

Uh-huh.
...
If you're leaving it for others on this forum to judge, why not answer the question?

Because It is my hope to maintain neutrality. The question is phrased in a way that if I answer it as a "Yes or No" question, it will force me to take side in this conflict of Israel vs Palestine.
I do not wish to take side.

How did you reach that conclusion? I've already told you the very first source you provided distinctly says "cuts in supply are not being felt by Gazans".

let's be clear about this. The EXACT quote was

Extract from the BBC News Report
report dated: Monday, 29 October 2007, 21:41 GMT
when the cut was only just started.

"BBC producer Rushdi Abu Alouf in Gaza says that cuts in supply are not being felt by Gazans yet."

I advise you to read the materials that people refer to carefully in the future.

Stop this silly regression of the thread. Repeating a lie does not make it true, doesn't matter how strongly you would like that.

...sounds like a comment that should be redirected to the blatant propagandists and people without sanity on this forum.

 

[Yonoz]

Because It is my hope to maintain neutrality. The question is phrased in a way that if I answer it as a "Yes or No" question, it will force me to take side in this conflict of Israel vs Palestine.

No it doesn't. It may force you to take a side in the Art vs. Yonoz conflict, but you can maintain neutrality in the Israel-Palestinian conflict while denouncing or supporting what is a distinctly antisemitic comment.

let's be clear about this. The EXACT quote was

Since we are living in the present, it is one and the same as saying "cuts in supply are not being felt by Gazans". Your comment:

You may say cutting a few thousands of litres of petrol supply is hardly going to hurt anyone, but the reality is that it does.

...is still unsupported.

...sounds like a comment that should be redirected to the blatant propagandists and people without sanity on this forum.

If you feel anything I have stated is untrue you may direct my attention, in this case, you keep repeating a claim that has repeatedly been disproved.

 

[Art]

At a court session held to examine the Israeli government's desire to further restrict supplies to the Gaza Strip, several human rights groups branded the potential move a violation of international law, arguing that Israeli administration is deliberately pursuing a policy of collective punishment against the coastal region.
snip
“Until today … and because of the lack of fuel to pump water from the wells, the required and adequate volume of water is not reaching the home of 15% of the residents of Gaza. If the reduction of the supply of fuel continues, the percentage of the population who will not have access to clean water will increase gradually, and the wells will cease to operate … Today, there is no surplus in fuel to allow the operation of water facilities, and the volume of remaining fuel for sewage equipment is sufficient for only one week.”

Contrary to the state’s claims, the petitioners argued that the implementation of this decision could cause widespread humanitarian damage. It is likely to endanger the functioning of hospitals and sewage and water services, and will interrupt the operation of medical equipment as well as vital household electrical equipment such as refrigerators, including those needed to refrigerate essential medical supplies.

http://www.imemc.org/article/51387

A spokesman for one of Gaza's fuel companies cautioned that gas stations would soon starting shutting down if the cutbacks weren't lifted.

"We are running out of fuel — our storage will end within five days and we will shut down all the stations," said Mahmoud Khozudar, a spokesman for the Gaza fuel companies. "You will have no bakery, no water, no sewage treatment and no transportation."

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/11/06/africa/ME-GEN-Palestinians-Protest.php


No effect huh? :zzz:

Though I'm sure it seems a natural next step to Israel to supplement their other punitive measures

At a news conference at U.N. headquarters in New York, AbuZayd painted a grim picture of life in the Gaza Strip, saying there has been a 71 percent decrease in goods going into Gaza since May, there is "zero stock" of 91 drugs compared to 61 last month, and farmers do not have the money to get their crops picked or send them to market so they are rotting.

That means that there are no fruits and vegetables to supplement the basic rations that 80 percent of Gaza's population receive — flour, oil, sugar, a bit of lentils and powdered milk — either from UNRWA or the U.N. World Food Program, she said.

"It's not good enough," AbuZayd said. "UNRWA's only giving 61 percent" of the daily nutritional needs.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gas24zdOxdQcBQRTEuKAHPpObsPgD8SP6M400
But of course lack of food and medicines won't hurt them either eh Yonoz

I've no doubt that when 1000s of Palestinians die from malnutrition, hunger and disease you'll be back on here spouting your anti-Semitic (note: used correctly) nonsense about how it's all an anti-Zionist conspiracy and Israel is not to blame etc.. etc... Well at least you can't say you weren't warned.

 

[Evo]

From Art's link.

The violent takeover of the Gaza Strip last June by the Islamic militants of the Hamas movement, and their continual rocketing of Israel, has led to Gaza's increasing isolation. In September, Israel declared Gaza a "hostile entity," clearing the way for economic sanctions.

It sounds like Isreal is taking a non-hostile approach to stop Paslestinians and their violent aggression against Isreal.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gas24zdOxdQcBQRTEuKAHPpObsPgD8SP6M400

This thread is going in circles, so is being closed.