How do inertial frames centered on a black hole's horizon work?

Click For Summary
The discussion revolves around a puzzle regarding inertial frames centered on a black hole's horizon, specifically how two probes launched by an astronaut behave differently when one is above the horizon and the other below it. The astronaut launches the first probe just before crossing the horizon and the second probe immediately after crossing, both at speeds close to light. While it seems that the probes should separate due to their differing positions relative to the horizon, in the astronaut's local inertial frame, they appear to move closer together. This paradox raises questions about simultaneity and the nature of observations within and outside the event horizon, emphasizing that while the infalling observer perceives the probes converging, an outside observer cannot witness the events beyond the horizon. The discussion concludes that the apparent convergence does not imply a physical collision, as the astronaut reaches the singularity before any such event can occur.
  • #31
PeterDonis said:
(This makes me wonder, btw, why this aspect of the Painleve chart does not appear to be stressed in any of the sources I'm familiar with. A number of them even take pains to point out that "space is Euclidean" in this chart; but the "space" in question is not defined by distances measured along spacelike geodesics.)

It does seem many authors read too much into that. It is really analogous to the case of a 2-sphere embedded in Euclidean 3-space. It is possible; it says nothing at all about the 3-space geometry or the geometry of a 2-surface constructed from a family of geodesics (a plane). In the case GP simultaneity surfaces, they are flat 3-manifolds embedded in a 4-manifold whose geodesic 3-surfaces are not flat.

As for the relation to distance, IMO, they do define a distance: we speak of distances along curved 2-surface embedded in flat 3-space based on geodesics of the induced metric. In this sense, GP spatial distances using Euclidean metric are meaningful distances within the 3-surface; the flat 3-metric is definitely an induced metric for these surfaces.

However, they are not what would normally be used to describe distance between world lines - unless you had some physical process constraining measurement to these surfaces.

[edit: I think what this implies is that if you constructed a rigid 3d-network in AS flat region, and moved it near a strongly gravitating body, it would be under stress, but could 'exist'. Whereas if no such spacelike embedding existed, it could not exist.]
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #32
PAllen said:
they are not what would normally be used to describe distance between world lines

Yes, and that seems to be the relevant notion of distance for this problem.
 
  • #33
PeterDonis said:
Painleve simultaneity curves are orthogonal everywhere to the worldlines of Painleve observers

Ack! "Simultaneity" is a real physical thing, not a coordinate artifact. There is no "Painleve simultaneity", nor "Schwarzschild simultaneity", etc. Just because you set a coordinate called 't' to a constant does not mean you are following lines of simultaneity for any observer! (Even if those lines are orthogonal to the worldlines of some "family" of observers).

As I said before, a line of simultaneity satisfies a simple, first-order ordinary differential equation with one initial condition. It is a geodesic which emanates from a given event along the direction of a vector, at that event, orthogonal to some observer's worldline.

If you have a family of observers concocted by some prescription such as Painleve, there is no a priori reason that lines of simultaneity from one observer should be orthogonal to any other observer's worldline. And furthermore there is no a priori reason that the collection of all lines of simultaneity emanating from a given event should even be integrable into a hypersurface.*

* I think actually in the absence of torsion, the possibility of having geodesic surfaces is a given (torsion makes geodesics twist around each other, so it's certainly not possible in the presence of torsion). Effectively an observer establishes his notion of simultaneity by constructing geodesic normal coordinates around himself and extending them to as large a patch as they cover.
 
  • #34
Ben Niehoff said:
Ack! "Simultaneity" is a real physical thing, not a coordinate artifact. There is no "Painleve simultaneity", nor "Schwarzschild simultaneity", etc. Just because you set a coordinate called 't' to a constant does not mean you are following lines of simultaneity for any observer! (Even if those lines are orthogonal to the worldlines of some "family" of observers).

As I said before, a line of simultaneity satisfies a simple, first-order ordinary differential equation with one initial condition. It is a geodesic which emanates from a given event along the direction of a vector, at that event, orthogonal to some observer's worldline.

If you have a family of observers concocted by some prescription such as Painleve, there is no a priori reason that lines of simultaneity from one observer should be orthogonal to any other observer's worldline. And furthermore there is no a priori reason that the collection of all lines of simultaneity emanating from a given event should even be integrable into a hypersurface.*

* I think actually in the absence of torsion, the possibility of having geodesic surfaces is a given (torsion makes geodesics twist around each other, so it's certainly not possible in the presence of torsion). Effectively an observer establishes his notion of simultaneity by constructing geodesic normal coordinates around himself and extending them to as large a patch as they cover.

Well now you get into philosphy, not physics, IMO. Many physicists (Einstein and J.L. Synge among them, along with many others) viewed simultaneity as a convention, not physics. For an observer on some world line, you could follow Einstein's simultaneity convention: a distant event is simultaneous to the an event on my world line with proper time half way between a pair of events e1 and e2 on my world line such that a null geodesic from e1 can reach the given event, and another null geodesic from the given event reaches e2. This is often called radar simultaneity. Locally, it converges to the same result as the simultaneity you espouse. Quasi-locally, it is different in GR, and also different in SR for non-inertial world lines. Unlike the simultaneity you espouse, it can actually be measured over substantial distances. Also, unlike the simultaneity you espouse, it will successfully correlate events on any two world lines that separate and meet again; your proposed 'unique' simultaneity will fail for moderately complex non-inertial paths event in SR (for example, a W shapped path for the traveling twin).
 
  • #35
Ben Niehoff said:
"Simultaneity" is a real physical thing, not a coordinate artifact.

I think that's more a matter of terminology than physics. I completely agree that what you are calling "simultaneity" can be defined in a coordinate-free manner, and curves or surfaces of simultaneity defined in this way are invariant geometric properties of a spacetime. But people do also use the term "simultaneity" to refer to other concepts.

Ben Niehoff said:
Just because you set a coordinate called 't' to a constant does not mean you are following lines of simultaneity for any observer! (Even if those lines are orthogonal to the worldlines of some "family" of observers).

Yes, I understand that what I was calling "Painleve simultaneity curves" should really have been called "curves of constant t, theta, phi in the Painleve chart", strictly speaking. But there is a natural tendency to use the word "simultaneity" to refer to curves of constant Painleve time, because of the orthogonality property.
 
  • #36
I think now I actually agree with PAllen, that there really isn't a natural way to define "simultaneous" for spatially-separated events in curved spacetime. The prescription I gave is coordinate-free and unique, but I don't think it would naturally "feel" more simultaneous, when applied to distant events, than any other convention. After all, the precise location of any distant event (i.e., its coordinates in any chosen coordinate system) must be inferred from light signals received from that event.

Nearby events of course must agree with a LIF, which agrees with normal coordinates, etc.

So I will say, some simultaneity convention can be chosen, but it should be based on something that can be clearly defined without coordinates.
 
Last edited:
  • #37
PAllen said:
your proposed 'unique' simultaneity will fail for moderately complex non-inertial paths event in SR (for example, a W shapped path for the traveling twin).

I am aware of this. By 'unique', I do not mean that distant events get assigned a unique line of simultaneity. I mean only that from a given observer in a given direction, a unique line of simultaneity can be defined. But it is fully possible for these lines to intersect at some distant event. I never proposed to define a global time coordinate this way.
 
  • #38
Ben Niehoff said:
Ack! "Simultaneity" is a real physical thing, not a coordinate artifact. ...

a line of simultaneity satisfies a simple, first-order ordinary differential equation with one initial condition. It is a geodesic which emanates from a given event along the direction of a vector, at that event, orthogonal to some observer's worldline.
In what sense is such a geodesic a "real physical thing"? It has no mass, no energy, no charge, none of the characteristics most people would talk about as being typical of "real physical thing"s. For non-inertial observer's you cannot write the laws of physics in terms of those "real physical thing"s and one of the postulates of relativity is that even for inertial observers the laws of physics are no different for the observer if they use them or others which are not orthogonal.

Personally, I don't worry too much about "real", but I just don't see any justification for your assertion.
 
  • #39
Ben Niehoff said:
I am aware of this. By 'unique', I do not mean that distant events get assigned a unique line of simultaneity. I mean only that from a given observer in a given direction, a unique line of simultaneity can be defined. But it is fully possible for these lines to intersect at some distant event. I never proposed to define a global time coordinate this way.

It is obviously fine to say a particular simultaneity definition has limited scope. However, if a traveler is trying to correlate events on his home world with his own events, the proposition that home 7pm to 8pm corresponds to traveler 2 pm to 2:30 pm and also to traveler 2:31 pm to 3:01 pm is absurd. A sane physicist would insist they must choose a different simultaneity convention to correlate their times with home times.
 
  • #40
Going back to the solution of the "puzzle", I see the original way it was put forward in the blog linked by Peter, which is slightly different than how it is described in the OP, it stresses that the discrepancy in separation of signals in an local inertial frame that contains the EH between what the Equivalence principle prescribes and what GR predicts should be enough to reject black holes and proof of the internal inconsistence of GR because the EP is at the theoretical core of GR.
My answer to that is that the author of this blog has a basic misunderstanding of the EP as it is used in GR, as happens often he is loosing sight of the 4-dimensionality of GR, this 4-dimensionality introduces an element of ambiguity in the EP that generates endless discussions when it is not acknowledged. In this case it is argued that relative positions of signals in a LIF can be used to show inconsistency of GR, that would be true if we where talkinkg only about the spatial hypersurfaces, but clearly since GR is a 4-dimensional theory there is margin to accommodate both perspectives if we are talking of different frames of reference or different motion states.
 
  • #41
TrickyDicky said:
I see the original way it was put forward in the blog linked by Peter, which is slightly different than how it is described in the OP

That's because the original blog post doesn't even do a good job of stating the puzzle to begin with. It's cluttered with irrelevant talk about "laws" that aren't stated properly anyway, and it misrepresents what GR (and SR) actually say. (For example, it claims that signals can be sent outward through a Rindler horizon.) I tried to extract the one thing that actually seemed worth thinking about.

TrickyDicky said:
the author of this blog has a basic misunderstanding of the EP

Yes, indeed. But I think it's even more basic than that: the author doesn't understand how to properly set up a local inertial frame centered on the horizon. The post implicitly assumes that the horizon is "a point in space", when in fact it's an outgoing light ray.

For extra fun, try looking at the author's other blog post about his new theory of gravity (it's linked to in the blog post I linked to in the OP).
 
  • #42
TrickyDicky said:
My answer to that is that the author of this blog has a basic misunderstanding of the EP as it is used in GR, as happens often he is loosing sight of the 4-dimensionality of GR, this 4-dimensionality introduces an element of ambiguity in the EP that generates endless discussions when it is not acknowledged.
Which statement in the blog's diagram is false, then? I'm not seeing an incorrect statement there. In particular:
When we let all of the particles above the horizon be escaping to infinity, GR demands that the cloud be splitting apart at the horizon. Nothing about a negligible tidal force mandates such splitting; this behavior is unique to frames straddling the horizon.
How can the cloud not be splitting into two pieces (at least), so that GR is compliant with its EP, or how can the cloud necessarily be splitting in two and yet GR somehow stays compliant with its EP even though the cloud wouldn't need to be splitting in two in every LIF? I'm not seeing the solution. It seems clear to me that the cloud must be splitting in two, because the particles below the horizon are destined to reach the singularity, whereas the escaping particles move ever further away from the hole. It also seems clear to me that no such behavior is required for an LIF; that is, in an LIF the cloud could possibly stay intact given the same velocity specified for only some of its particles, in this case the escaping ones. The author of this blog may well be off base but I'd sure like to know which statement in that diagram is false. To my knowledge there is no ambiguity about the EP to the extent where logically opposite behavior is predicted for an LIF vs. a true inertial frame.
 
Last edited:
  • #43
Ben Niehoff said:
This is a red herring. The answer to the puzzle must lie in curvature effects, because if we could truly ignore all curvature effects, then the axioms of the local inertial frame would demand that the probes collide.
Be careful; the solution must work for all LIFs, because the EP implies that all LIFs are equivalent to one another.

As for what the observer actually does see, I should expect that initially, the distance between the probes is decreasing, but it should actually reach a turnaround point and start increasing. After all, the observer has tossed one ball up at escape velocity, and then a second ball at less than escape velocity. The second ball must return.
But this behavior isn't predicted for all LIFs, so it's not predicted by the solution. The solution must allow the distance between the probes (as measured in the observer's LIF) to decrease at a constant rate for as long as the LIF is valid (possibly years) or until the probes collide, as would happen in other LIFs. These probes each have a constant velocity as measured in the observer's LIF.
 
Last edited:
  • #44
PeterDonis said:
Bear in mind also that the puzzle does not say the two probes collide in the local inertial frame; it only says they approach each other, even though the first probe is increasing its radial coordinate and the second is decreasing it.
There's an assumption being made here, worthy of investigation. The probes cannot be approaching each other and moving in opposite directions away from a radial coordinate between them. The probes are approaching each other according to SR, which the EP tells us we are free to employ. Then the radial coordinate of the second probe must be increasing faster than the radial coordinate of the first probe increases, so that they would eventually collide (be at the same radial coordinate) if the frame were large enough. The EP let's us reach this conclusion even though GR disagrees.

In this thread I've seen you and others focus on predictions specific to GR, while (in your solutions at least) ignoring the laws of physics for an LIF. In the OP you asked "What gives?" The answer can't be the laws of physics in an LIF; the EP doesn't allow those to give, of course. A proposed solution to your thought experiment is invalid if it doesn't agree with the laws of physics for all LIFs as the EP implies it must. I suggest verifying that the behavior predicted by a proposed solution is exactly what is expected in an LIF falling toward a speck of dust in an otherwise gravity-free universe.
 
Last edited:
  • #45
George Jones said:
so dr/d\tau must be negative, i.e., r must decrease.

Agreed. But how is that compatible with the fact that in the thought experiment's LIF the second probe would (according to SR) approach the first probe, whose r always increases? How can they be approaching each other in that LIF when the first probe moves away from the same thing the second probe moves toward?
 
Last edited:
  • #46
kugbol said:
Agreed. But how is that compatible with the fact that in the thought experiment's LIF the second probe would (according to SR) approach the first probe, whose r always increases? How can they be approaching each other in that LIF when the first probe moves away from the same thing the second probe moves toward?

An local inertial frame is limited in time as well as space. Note that the r coordinate does not correspond to a positional coordinate in any LIF. For a while, assuming it were possible to 'see' the horizon - a light like surface - you would see the second probe overtaking the first probe, and the light like surface overtaking it even faster. This is possible because free faller r is decreasing much faster than second probe r, so it is moving away, very rapidly, in LIF. However, before the horizon can overtake the outer probe, as the free faller moves farther from the horizon, the probes are far enough in space and time that an LIF model deviates from reality. Without doing a geometric optics calculation, the following is an educated guess: I would think that despite the probes being inertial, it would shift to look similar to the situation of an accelerating probe with a head start on light, and another accelerating probe (with faster apparent acceleration) emitted with a lag on light. Distance contraction would be so extreme that the infaller probably never sees divergence of the paths, but will soon determine that an LIF model starts to be inaccurate.
 
  • #47
kugbol said:
How can the cloud not be splitting into two pieces (at least), so that GR is compliant with its EP, or how can the cloud necessarily be splitting in two and yet GR somehow stays compliant with its EP even though the cloud wouldn't need to be splitting in two in every LIF?

The cloud is *not* splitting within the LIF. That's the point. Within the LIF, the cloud behaves just like you'd expect it to, just like it behaves in any other LIF. It only starts splitting later, outside the LIF. The LIF only covers a small piece of spacetime; the splitting of the cloud occurs later, outside that piece.
 
  • #48
kugbol said:
But how is that compatible with the fact that in the thought experiment's LIF the second probe would (according to SR) approach the first probe, whose r always increases? How can they be approaching each other in that LIF when the first probe moves away from the same thing the second probe moves toward?

Have you read through this thread? In particular, have you read the multiple posts explicating the fact that "distance" relative to the coordinate r is not the same as distance relative to the LIF?
 
  • #49
I hope this isn't too elementary a question, but what exactly defines the validity of an LIF? Or rather, how does one know when a LIF is no longer a valid? I've read through this thread, as well as a few online sources, and all I can gather is that while in the most strict sense an LIF is only valid if made arbitrarily small, it's valid for "regions small enough that non-uniformities of the gravitational field are too small to measure." I guess a more specific question would be, at what point exactly does the astronaut's LIF no longer contain the two probes?
 
  • #50
bossman27 said:
I hope this isn't too elementary a question, but what exactly defines the validity of an LIF? Or rather, how does one know when a LIF is no longer a valid? I've read through this thread, as well as a few online sources, and all I can gather is that while in the most strict sense an LIF is only valid if made arbitrarily small, it's valid for "regions small enough that non-uniformities of the gravitational field are too small to measure." I guess a more specific question would be, at what point exactly does the astronaut's LIF no longer contain the two probes?

It is not a yes/no question. Given a proposed measurement, you can compute the error of assuming LIF. Then the question becomes what is your acceptable error. The error is only mathematically zero for a point. Beyond that, you get continuous growth of error. The growth of the error depends on the measurement. For curved spacetime, there are a few special types of measurements sensitive to second derivative of metric. For these, there is no size that will act as an LIF. For almost all measurements, the error is proportional to tidal effects at first, but then will become non-linear. Think of it as higher order terms of a Taylor expansion becoming dominant.
 
  • #51
bossman27 said:
I guess a more specific question would be, at what point exactly does the astronaut's LIF no longer contain the two probes?

Just to wrap up the "puzzle", I'm going to show the math on this. I'll start with the equation for "escape velocity" at a radius r = 2M ( 1 + 2 \epsilon ), where \epsilon << 1, i.e., just above the horizon. The reason for the factor of 2 in front of \epsilon will be clear in a moment.

The equation for "escape velocity" is (note that I will be freely using the binomial expansion and discarding higher-order terms in \epsilon where necessary):

v_e = \sqrt{\frac{2M}{r}} = \sqrt{\frac{2M}{2M (1 + 2 \epsilon )}} = \left( 1 + 2 \epsilon \right)^{-1/2} = 1 - \epsilon

So the factor of 2 above makes the expression for v_e cleaner.

But what does v_e mean, physically? It is the "escape velocity" at radius r, relative to a "static" observer at radius r. That means the escaping object is moving outward at v_e, relative to the static observer; but the astronaut, who is free-falling inward from rest at infinity, is moving *inward* at v_e. So the relative velocity of the escaping object and the static observer is given by the relativistic velocity addition formula:

v = \frac{v_e + v_e}{1 + v_e^2} = \frac{2 (1 - \epsilon)}{1 + \left( 1 - \epsilon \right)^2} = \frac{2 (1 - \epsilon)}{2 - 2 \epsilon + \epsilon^2} = \frac{1}{1 + \epsilon^2 / [ 2 ( 1 - \epsilon ) ]} = \frac{1}{1 + \epsilon^2 / 2} = 1 - \frac{1}{2} \epsilon^2

Now, an interesting point that I didn't raise before: the "puzzle" can actually be stated even more simply, and sharply, than I did in the OP. Here's how: in the astronaut's local inertial frame, the horizon is moving outward at the speed of light. The probe launched outward at escape velocity just above the horizon is moving outward at *less* than the speed of light. But if it's moving slower than the horizon, how can it possibly escape?

The answer, of course, is found by computing the time it would take for the horizon to catch up with the probe, with respect to the local inertial frame. To do that, we need to first compute how far the probe is from the astronaut at the instant the astronaut crosses the horizon. So we need the time with respect to the LIF between the probe's launch and the astronaut crossing the horizon. This is simple since we have the radial coordinate at which the probe is launched; it's just the standard formula for proper time to fall for a Painleve observer from radius 2M (1 + 2 \epsilon ) to radius 2M:

\tau = \frac{2}{3} [ \sqrt{\frac{r}{2M}} ( r ) - 2M ] = \frac{2}{3} [ \sqrt{1 + 2 \epsilon} ( 2M ) ( 1 + 2 \epsilon ) - 2M ] = \frac{4}{3} M [ ( 1 + \epsilon ) ( 1 + 2 \epsilon ) - 1 ] = \frac{4}{3} M ( 3 \epsilon) = 4 M \epsilon

The distance the probe moves in this time is then just v \tau, but since v differs from 1 only by a term quadratic in \epsilon, then to the order of approximation we are using, the distance is simply D = \tau = 4 M \epsilon (the correction term is cubic in \epsilon).

The time it will take for the horizon to catch up to the probe is then T = D / (1 - v), the distance divided by the "closure speed", the difference of the probe's velocity and the horizon's velocity (which is 1). This gives

T = \frac{\tau}{1 - v} = 4 M \epsilon \frac{2}{\epsilon^2} = \frac{8 M}{\epsilon}

Since the horizon starts at time t = 0 in the LIF, and moves outward at speed 1, this will also be the distance from the LIF's origin at which the horizon would catch the probe, according to the LIF. And since \epsilon << 1, we can see that T >> 8M.

Now we need to compare this to the size of the LIF; i.e., we need to answer the question, at what distance (or time) from the origin of the LIF will tidal gravity become non-negligible? The easiest way to quantify this roughly (which, as we will see, is more than enough) is to look at the components of the Riemann curvature tensor at the origin of the LIF; they are all of order M / r^3 = M / (2M)^3 = 1 / 8 M^2. If we write an expression for the metric in the LIF:

g_{ab} = \eta_{ab} + O(x^2)

then the quadratic correction terms will be proportional to the Riemann tensor components; and since they are quadratic, the "distance" (in space or time) at which the corrections are of order unity is given by the inverse square root of the Riemann tensor components. So the acceptable size of the LIF (in space and time), within which the corrections to the metric due to curvature are negligible, is given by

\delta << \sqrt{8} M

But we saw above that the time for the horizon to catch up to the probe was T >> 8 M; and this is *much* greater (by two factors, so to speak) than the size of the LIF. So tidal gravity/spacetime curvature will become non-negligible long before the horizon would be able to catch the probe.

A final note: what happens once tidal gravity becomes non-negligible? One way to approach this is to ask, what if there were no tidal gravity? What would happen? Well, the horizon would catch up to the probe, meaning it would fall below the horizon (and then meet up with the second probe, which was launched from below the horizon). Tidal gravity basically pulls the horizon down so it can't catch the probe. (More precisely, tidal gravity means the hole pulls the horizon down faster than it pulls the escaping probe down, because of their initial spatial separation.) So the horizon starts out catching up to the probe, but tidal gravity causes it to stop catching up and start receding from the probe.

(A good exercise, btw, is to re-do the above analysis in the LIF of the first probe.)
 
Last edited:
  • #52
PAllen said:
An local inertial frame is limited in time as well as space. Note that the r coordinate does not correspond to a positional coordinate in any LIF. For a while, assuming it were possible to 'see' the horizon - a light like surface - you would see the second probe overtaking the first probe, and the light like surface overtaking it even faster. This is possible because free faller r is decreasing much faster than second probe r, so it is moving away, very rapidly, in LIF. However, before the horizon can overtake the outer probe, as the free faller moves farther from the horizon, the probes are far enough in space and time that an LIF model deviates from reality.
This doesn't seem to pass a logic test. First we eliminate any issues related to the free faller being too far from the probes. Use a technique common to SR texts to simplify such thought experiments. In the LIF employ a string of observers at rest with respect to the astronaut's frame, each with their own measuring equipment. Let all measurements be taken by these observers when the probes pass right by them, so that speed of light delays and other issues with taking measurements from afar are eliminated. The observers record their measurements, and when the experiment is over the measurements are collected and analyzed to draw conclusions. (The LIF can possibly remain valid for years as measured on the observers' wristwatches, given a sufficiently massive black hole.)

Let the second probe be launched right at the horizon (so it straddles the horizon initially). Let the upper end (the end furthest away from the black hole) of the second probe be further above the horizon than the upper end of the first probe. (We let the second probe be longer than the first probe.) Now, according to any of the string of observers taking measurements directly, the second probe cannot possibly be overtaking the first probe, or else the second probe would be passing outward through the horizon and escaping, which of course GR doesn't allow. GR only allows the second probe to fall inward toward the center of the black hole. Whereas the first probe is moving outward, away from the black hole. GR allows only one way in which these probes can be moving relative to each other. Whereas in an LIF there are 3 ways allowed: second probe overtaking (in the outward direction) first probe, first probe overtaking second probe, probes at rest with respect to each other.

The practicalities of launching the probes can be ignored. We are free to imagine the probes already in free fall at the start of the thought experiment. Let the first probe be a particle and the second probe a rod, with the first probe above the horizon and escaping, alongside the second probe which is straddling the horizon. We are free to imagine this because it's all valid in an LIF. Nothing that's valid in an LIF can be denied by GR.

The consensus in this thread as to the solution to the OP's thought experiment seems to be that the LIF becomes invalid before a paradox can arise. We see above, however, that the thought experiment concludes instantly, in a single moment as measured in the LIF, with everything measurable by observers (who are at rest in the astronaut's frame) right next to the probes. What am I missing? (Using worded logic only please, since that can be both scientifically valid and simpler.)
 
  • #53
kugbol said:
Let the second probe be launched right at the horizon (so it straddles the horizon initially).

But it cannot be "at rest" relative to the horizon; the horizon is moving outward at the speed of light in the LIF. So no matter what velocity you give this probe in the LIF, the horizon will be moving faster.

kugbol said:
Let the upper end (the end furthest away from the black hole) of the second probe be further above the horizon than the upper end of the first probe. (We let the second probe be longer than the first probe.)

When is this supposed to be the case? The first probe has already been launched outward. Do you mean that at the instant, in the LIF, that the second probe gets launched, its upper end is still further above the horizon than the upper end of the first probe, even though the latter is already moving outward (at close to the speed of light, since it has to be moving at escape velocity)?

kugbol said:
Now, according to any of the string of observers taking measurements directly, the second probe cannot possibly be overtaking the first probe, or else the second probe would be passing outward through the horizon and escaping, which of course GR doesn't allow.

Nope, this is not correct. I assume you intend the second probe to be launched outward with a greater velocity, relative to the LIF, than the first, right? If that is the case, then the second probe's upper end will move *away* from the first probe's upper end (assuming, as I did above, that the first probe's upper end is still below the second probe's upper end when the second probe is launched). And all of your string of observers will make observations that show that.

However, the above will only be true within the LIF, and the LIF is pretty small; under the conditions you have given, the size of the LIF can't be much larger than the length of the second probe. So within a very short time, the probes will leave the LIF, and the laws of SR can no longer be used after that point to predict what happens to them. The laws of GR say that at some point after the two probes leave the LIF, the second probe's upper end will stop moving away from the first probe's upper end; it will fall back, and the first probe's upper end will pass it. Soon after that, the lower end of the first probe will pass the upper end of the second; and soon after *that*, the upper end of the second probe will fall below the horizon.

kugbol said:
GR only allows the second probe to fall inward toward the center of the black hole. Whereas the first probe is moving outward, away from the black hole.

This is true if the words "inward" and "outward" are defined relative to the global radial coordinate r. But the spatial coordinate in the LIF is *not* r. So it's perfectly possible for everything I said above to be true, *and* for what you said in the above quote to be true as well.

However, this does bring up an important point which wasn't raised in my original version of the puzzle. The probes in my original version were idealized as point particles, so they only have a single "spatial position" at a given time in any frame. Your probes are extended objects, so they occupy a range of spatial positions; and the relationship between spatial position in the LIF and the global radial coordinate r *changes* within the LIF. What you stated in the quote above is, strictly speaking, true only for the centers of mass of the probes: the second probe's CoM has decreasing r, while the first probe's CoM has increasing r.

However, because of the probes' spatial extension, the second probe's upper end starts out with *increasing* r, not decreasing r; that's how it can move away from the first probe's upper end. This only lasts while the second probe remains within the LIF, though. Once it exits the LIF, as I said above, its upper end will at some point reverse direction relative to the first probe's upper end.

Note also that, once the second probe exits the LIF, tidal gravity is no longer negligible. That means the second probe will be stretched by this process. The stretching will not be detectable within the LIF, but it will be once the probe exits the LIF.

One final note: a key point that was identified in the discussion in this thread is that radial "distance" with respect to the r coordinate is not a well-defined "proper distance". This is another reason why your assumptions about what is implied by the behavior of the r coordinates of the probes' upper ends are not valid.

kugbol said:
GR allows only one way in which these probes can be moving relative to each other.

This is incorrect. GR allows all the ways that are allowed in the LIF. But the relationship between the LIF's spatial coordinate and the global radial coordinate r is not as simple as you think it is; see above.
 
  • #54
PeterDonis said:
So the relative velocity of the escaping object and the static observer is given by the relativistic velocity addition formula:

v = \frac{v_e + v_e}{1 + v_e^2} = \frac{2 (1 - \epsilon)}{1 + \left( 1 - \epsilon \right)^2} = \frac{2 (1 - \epsilon)}{2 - 2 \epsilon + \epsilon^2} = \frac{1}{1 + \epsilon^2 / [ 2 ( 1 - \epsilon ) ]} = \frac{1}{1 + \epsilon^2 / 2} = 1 - \frac{1}{2} \epsilon^2
I suppose you mean 'the astronaut' instead of the static observer?

PeterDonis said:
in the astronaut's local inertial frame, the horizon is moving outward at the speed of light.
Do you say that is true only when the astronaut exactly crosses the horizon or at all times?
 
  • #55
Passionflower said:
I suppose you mean 'the astronaut' instead of the static observer?

Oops, yes, the relative velocity with the \epsilon^2 in it is the relative velocity of the astronaut (free-falling into the hole) and the first probe (shot outward at escape velocity just above the horizon). Thanks for catching that!

Passionflower said:
Do you say that is true only when the astronaut exactly crosses the horizon or at all times?

Strictly speaking, we can only assign an invariant meaning to "the velocity of the horizon relative to the astronaut" at the event where the two curves, astronaut worldline and horizon, cross. For practical purposes, though, we can say that the horizon is moving outward at c in any local inertial frame that includes the horizon, within the extent of that LIF.
 
  • #56
It seems to me that from the perspective of the astronaut after he crosses the horizon the absolute horizon retreats faster than light. The effect is similar to the metric expansion of space in inflation models but the difference is that the effect is much larger closer to the astronaut because the curvature is larger here. It seems logical that the two probes seem to converge from the astronaut's perspective.

Consider: How does the whole universe look when the astronaut looks back after he passed the physical horizon?
 
  • #57
Passionflower said:
It seems to me that from the perspective of the astronaut after he crosses the horizon the absolute horizon retreats faster than light.

There may be a coordinate chart that would indicate this, but there's no invariant way to specify it that I can see.

Passionflower said:
The effect is similar to the metric expansion of space in inflation models

I'm not sure I see the similarity. It's true that Schwarzschild spacetime below the horizon is not static, but what family of observers would correspond to the "comoving" observers in an FRW spacetime, who see the universe as expanding?

Passionflower said:
the effect is much larger closer to the astronaut because the curvature is larger here.

Not necessarily; you can make the curvature at the horizon as small as you like by making the black hole's mass large enough.

Passionflower said:
Consider: How does the whole universe look when the astronaut looks back after he passed the physical horizon?

If the astronaut is a Painleve observer, IIRC the universe would look somewhat redshifted.
 
  • #58
PeterDonis said:
I'm not sure I see the similarity. It's true that Schwarzschild spacetime below the horizon is not static, but what family of observers would correspond to the "comoving" observers in an FRW spacetime, who see the universe as expanding?
It is obviously not exactly the same as an FRW spacetime however would you disagree that the event horizon for the astronaut acts like a cosmic event horizon? After all the astronaut once passed can never reach the event horizon again let alone pass it. And if you would agree with this notion how but attribute it to curvature of space. The curvature is obviously not identical to the curvature of a FRW spacetime.

PeterDonis said:
Not necessarily; you can make the curvature at the horizon as small as you like by making the black hole's mass large enough.
True.

PeterDonis said:
If the astronaut is a Painleve observer, IIRC the universe would look somewhat redshifted.
It would gradually get redder and redder, also similar to the metric expansion of space where stars 'slipping' beyond the cosmic event horizon leave a faint red print behind.

Interestingly if one decomposes the Doppler effect into a velocity and gravitational component for the astronaut then outside of the event horizon the gravitational and velocity shift effects increase (resp. blue shift and red shift), outside the event horizon the velocity based redshift is stronger and eventually at the event horizon the resulting shift becomes exactly 0.5.
 
Last edited:
  • #59
Passionflower said:
It is obviously not exactly the same as an FRW spacetime however would you disagree that the event horizon for the astronaut acts like a cosmic event horizon. After all the astronaut once passed can never reach the event horizon again let alone pass it.

Usually the cosmic event horizon is described according to how observers "outside" it see things (galaxies that pass beyond the horizon are no longer visible); but yes, this way of looking at it applies in both cases.
 
  • #60
PeterDonis said:
The laws of GR say that at some point after the two probes leave the LIF, the second probe's upper end will stop moving away from the first probe's upper end; it will fall back, and the first probe's upper end will pass it. Soon after that, the lower end of the first probe will pass the upper end of the second; and soon after *that*, the upper end of the second probe will fall below the horizon.

... the words "inward" and "outward" are defined relative to the global radial coordinate r. But the spatial coordinate in the LIF is *not* r.

I say your first point is false even though your second is true. What's happening in terms of inward or outward relative to the global radial coordinate r affects what can possibly be measured in the LIF.

Usage of black holes, launching at relativistic velocities, etc. make this harder to see. A more mundane experiment can have all the important qualities to prove my point.

You're in a skyscraper's elevator car with snapped cabling, free-falling toward the ground. Within your car is a free-falling radially-oriented ruler, its downward end marked zero. There's a free-falling particle initially right next to the ruler. The ruler is moving directly toward the ground, that's a given. It's also given that the particle is moving directly toward the building's rooftop. The parameters I've specified enforce that there is only one way in which you could measure the particle moving relative to the ruler: toward a higher number on it. That's the conclusion no matter the ruler's velocity as you measure it. It also doesn't matter that you don't know which direction is upward or downward. What you can possibly measure in your LIF is restricted by the parameters given relative to that global system.

Now keep the experiment the same except: Let the elevator car be falling through the horizon of a black hole. Unlike in the skyscraper version the ruler's movement relative to the global radial coordinate r (like downward or inward) isn't specified. Let the ruler be straddling the horizon initially. Let the particle be above the horizon and escaping to infinity. Given the parameters I've specified, there is only one way in which which you could measure the particle moving relative to the ruler: toward a higher number on it. Again the velocity of the ruler as you measure it doesn't matter, nor does your inability to discern upward or downward. When we let the ruler be straddling the horizon initially, GR demands that it be falling downward, like the ruler in the skyscraper's car. Merely specifying the ruler's location within your LIF restricted its movement relative to the global radial coordinate r, in turn restricting what you can possibly measure in your LIF.

Note that both experiments need last only an arbitrarily short time elapsed on your wristwatch, so that your LIF remains valid. To tie back to your point, my elevator car experiment shows that the second probe's upper end can never be measured to be moving away from the first probe's upper end.

It seems there's indeed a paradox within GR. (To be clear, the paradox is that GR also implies by way of its principle of equivalence that in the black hole example it must be possible in principle for you to measure the particle moving toward a lower number on the ruler. So GR seems to contradict itself.) The thought experiment you originally proposed, with a few simplifications, is highly intriguing! Where did I go wrong?
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 51 ·
2
Replies
51
Views
4K
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
2K
  • · Replies 17 ·
Replies
17
Views
3K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • · Replies 25 ·
Replies
25
Views
2K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
1K
  • · Replies 15 ·
Replies
15
Views
2K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
5K