How do we determine the global geometry of thin shells in GR?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion focuses on the determination of global geometry in the context of thin shells in General Relativity (GR). Participants explore the dynamics of thin shells, the mathematical formulations involved, and the implications of different sign conventions in the equations governing these systems.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant references a paper by Berezin that discusses how the inner and outer metrics determine the global geometry of thin shells, emphasizing the role of the sign factor sigma in the equations.
  • Another participant introduces the concept of "Gauss-Codazzi" versus "Gauss-Kodazzi," questioning the correct terminology and noting discrepancies in literature.
  • A later post reiterates the terminology debate, highlighting that multiple sources use "Codazzi."
  • Further contributions detail the master equation for thin shells, explaining the significance of the sign factors s_{-} and s_{+}, and how they relate to the gravitational mass of the shell.
  • One participant discusses the implications of initial conditions on the gravitational mass mg, noting that two solutions arise under certain conditions, which may lead to ambiguity in determining the correct physical scenario.
  • There is mention of the limitations of choosing solutions based on the condition mc+mg>0, indicating that both solutions could potentially describe valid systems.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the terminology used in the context of Gauss-Codazzi equations. Additionally, there is no consensus on the implications of the two solutions for gravitational mass mg, as participants acknowledge the validity of both solutions under certain conditions.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes unresolved questions about the choice of terminology and the implications of different mathematical solutions for the gravitational mass of thin shells. The dependence on specific conditions and definitions is noted, but not resolved.

mersecske
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There is a great resume on dynamics of thin shells in GR:
Berezin87: Dynamics of bubbles in GR (Phys. Rev. D 36, 2919)

In section III/A above the equation (3.1) there is the following statement:

"Thus, for given inner and outer metrics sigma determine the global geometry
(i.e. how the inner geometry is stuck together to the outer one)"

Sigma is a sign +1 or -1, see for example in the master equation
(Schwarzschild-Schwarzschild thin shell):

sigma_in*sqrt(1-2mc/r+v^2) - sigma_out*sqrt(1-2(mc+mg)/r+v^2) = mr/r

where r is the circumferential radius;
v = dr/dtau, and tau is the proper time of the shell;
mc is the central Schwarzschild mass parameter;
mg is the gravitational mass of the shell, this means
that the outer Schwarzschild mass parameter is mc+mg;
and mr is the rest mass of the shell, mr > 0;

It can be shown for all four possibilities of the signs that
the following equation of motion
can be derived independent of the signs:

(dr/dtau)^2 = (mg/mr)^2 - 1 + (2mc+mg)/r + (mr/2r)^2

This coincide with the above statement,
because he signs do not influence the local motion.

But in another paper of Goldwirth & Katz:
http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9408034
they have a nice illustration of gluing manifolds together:
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/gr-qc/ps/9408/9408034v3.fig1-1.png

They suggest that the signs comes from the four possibilities:
witch half of the manifolds is chosen.
But if we have already chosen the half, we also fix the metric.
I think Berezin's statement means that the signs comes from
how to join chosen metrics together, and not how to chose the metrics!
 
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"Gauss-Codazzi" or "Gauss-Kodazzi"?
 
mersecske said:
"Gauss-Codazzi" or "Gauss-Kodazzi"?

I just checked in four of my books, and they all write "Codazzi."
 
Kodazzi is used also lots of place in the literature, why?
 
The master equation of thin shells is:

s_{-}\sqrt(1-2m_c/r+v^2) - s_{+}\sqrt(1-2(m_c+m_g)/r+v^2) = m_s/r

Where mc is the central mass (Schwarzschild mass parameter of the inner '-' spacetime),
mc+mg is the total mass (Schwarzschild mass parameter of the outer '+' spacetime),
therefore mg can be interpreted as gravitational mass of the shell.
ms=4*pi*sigma*r^2, where sigma is the surface energy density, ms>0.
r is the area radius, v is dr/dtau, where tau is the proper time on the shell.

s_{-} and s_{+} are sign factors.
If we are talking about conventional shells
(not wormhole solution, and not Univerze with two centers)
than s is nothing else, but sgn(f*Tdot),
where f=1-2M/r is the metric function, and Tdot=dt/dtau,
where t is the Schwarzschild time.

If we give mc,ms=m0,r=r0,v=v0, as initial data set,
we can calculate the gravitational mass mg.
But we get two solutions:
mg=m0(-m0/(2*r0)+sqrt(1-2*mc/r0+v0^2))
or
mg=m0(-m0/(2*r0)-sqrt(1-2*mc/r0+v0^2))
If r0>2*mc, than only the first solution is possible.
But below the horizon I cannot choose.
In genereal both solutions can describe a valid system, I think.
If we check mc+mg>0, do not help to choose.
 

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