Minkowski-minkowski thin shell paradoxon?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the properties and implications of spherically symmetric infinitesimally thin shells in various gravitational contexts, specifically focusing on Minkowski-Minkowski and Minkowski-Schwarzschild junctions. Participants explore the mathematical formulations and physical interpretations of these scenarios, including the implications of gravitational mass and rest mass.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes the junction formalism of Israel for thin shells in vacuum, presenting equations that govern the behavior of these shells in different spacetime configurations.
  • The participant notes that in the Minkowski-Minkowski case, the only solution leads to zero rest mass, which aligns with expectations for a Minkowski spacetime.
  • In the Minkowski-Schwarzschild case, the participant derives a solution indicating that it is possible to have a moving shell with positive rest mass but zero gravitational mass, raising questions about the nature of spacetime in this scenario.
  • Another participant introduces a mathematical exploration involving the rearrangement of a square root equation, questioning the implications of equality in the context of the variables involved.
  • A later reply expresses gratitude but refers to the previous discussion as trivial, indicating a shift in focus.
  • Another participant raises a question about the Schwarzschild-Schwarzschild shell, suggesting that negative gravitational mass could be interpreted without violating the positive energy theorem, prompting inquiry into the normalcy of such situations above the horizon.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

The discussion contains multiple competing views and interpretations regarding the implications of gravitational mass and rest mass in different spacetime configurations. There is no consensus on the interpretations or implications of the derived equations.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty regarding the implications of having a moving shell with zero gravitational mass and the interpretation of negative gravitational mass in the Schwarzschild-Schwarzschild case. The discussion highlights the complexity of these concepts without resolving the underlying questions.

mersecske
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Spherically symmetric infinitesimally thin shells
can be described via the well known junction formalism of Israel.
Let us consider such shell in vacuum,
this means that on both sides of the shell we have Schwarzschild spacetimes.
One of the dynamical equations is the first component of the Einstein equation
in the thin shell limit:

sqrt(1-2mc/r+v^2) - sqrt(1-2(mc+mg)/r+v^2) = mr/r

where r is the circumferential radius;
v = dr/dtau, and tau is the proper time of the shell;
mc is the central Schwarzschild mass parameter;
mg is the gravitational mass of the shell, this means
that the outer Schwarzschild mass parameter is mc+mg;
and mr is the rest mass of the shell, mr > 0;

Let assume the dust case,
when all mass parameters are contant during the motion.

In the case of Minkowski-Minkowski junction mc=0, mg=0
and the equation reduces to

sqrt(1+v^2) - sqrt(1+v^2) = mr/r

therefore mr=0 is the only solution.
This is what we expect becaue the whole space is Minkowski.

But let us consider Minkowski-Schwarzschild junction.
In this case mc=0 but mg is not restricted.
The equation is

sqrt(1+v^2) - sqrt(1-2mg/r+v^2) = mr/r

The solution of this equation for mg is:

mg = mr(2r*sqrt(1+v^2)-mr)/r/2

We can see that for mr=0 we get mg=0,
but it is possible to set mg=0 with positive mr also!
For example with the initial condition v=0,
and mr=2r we get mg=0.
And since mass parameters are constant during the motion,
we get a moving shell solution with positive rest mass
but zero gravitational mass,
which means that the spacetime is Minkowski both inside and outside!
It is very strange if this is the reality.
We have energy in the spacetime
but the spacetime is Minkowski except on a singular hypesurface.
 
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Suppose

[tex]\sqrt{1 + x} - \sqrt{1 + y} = z.[/tex]

Then, [itex]x = y[/itex] implies [itex]z = 0[/itex].

Rearrangement and squaring, however, gives

[tex] \begin{equation*}<br /> \begin{split}<br /> 1 + y &= \left(\sqrt{1 + x} -z \right)^2 \\<br /> &= 1 +x -2z\sqrt{1 + x} + z^2 \\<br /> y &= x + z\left(z - 2\sqrt{1 + x}\right) .<br /> \end{equation*}<br /> \end{split}[/tex]

Consequently, [itex]x = y[/itex] implies [itex]z = 0[/itex] or [itex]z = 2\sqrt{1 + x}[/itex]. What happened?
 
Thank you, sorry about this triviality
 
But I have another question.
Now we assume Schwarzschild-Schwarzschild shell.
In this case mg can be negative,
and the positive energy theorem is not violated,
since mc + mg > 0 and mr > 0,
where mc is the central Schwarzschild mass parameter,
mr is the rest mass of the shell,
and mg is the gravitational mass of the shell.
How can we interpret this situation?
Above both horizon, this is a normal situation?
 

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