How do you calculate the cool-down rate of the Universe?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on calculating the rate of cooling of the universe, exploring various approaches and theoretical frameworks. Participants consider the implications of different components of the universe, such as radiation, matter, and dark energy, and how these affect temperature and cooling rates. The conversation includes references to thermodynamic principles and cosmological equations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests using the Ideal Gas Law to calculate the cooling rate, assuming constant pressure and amount, leading to a proposed relationship between volume and temperature.
  • Another participant counters that the Ideal Gas Law is not applicable due to the distinct behaviors of radiation, matter, and dark energy, each having different equations of state.
  • A later reply indicates that the temperature of the universe is proportional to the inverse of the scale factor, proposing a derivative approach to determine the rate of change in temperature.
  • One participant emphasizes that the overall temperature of the universe is defined by the temperature of the cosmic microwave background (CMB) and questions the definition of "overall temperature."
  • Another participant discusses the Friedmann equations and their relation to the energy density and pressure of the universe, suggesting that different equations of state are necessary for different components.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the applicability of the Ideal Gas Law and the definition of the universe's overall temperature. Multiple competing views remain on how to accurately calculate the cooling rate, with no consensus reached on a single method.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on definitions of temperature and the assumptions made about the behavior of different components of the universe. The discussion reflects unresolved mathematical steps and varying interpretations of thermodynamic principles in cosmology.

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Trying to figure out, on my own, how to calculate the universe's rate of cooling. Used the Ideal Gas Law, but I'm not sure if that's the right way.
Okay, just for kicks, I was wondering how do you calculate the the rate of cooling of the universe? All I could think of is using the Ideal Gas Law from Thermodynamics:

Ideal Gas Law:

P V = n R T |
V | volume
P | pressure
n | amount
T | temperature
R | molar gas constant (≈ 8.314 J/(mol K))

I assumed P & n stay pretty constant, then temperature (T) varies directly with volume (V). So the change in volume is equal to the change in temperature.

ΔV = R ΔT

So assuming that the Hubble Parameter (I know this number is controversial, but I just picked one of them) is:

H_0 ≈ 68 km/s/Mpc (kilometers per second per megaparsec)
≈ 2.2×10^-18 per second

So the volumetric version of the Hubble Parameter would just be the cube of H_0:

H_0^3 ≈ (2.2×10^-18)^3 per second
≈ 1.065×10^-53 per second

So the universe's volume would grow by a factor of 1.065×10^-53 per second.

ΔT = ΔV/R
= 1.065×10^-53 / 8.314
= 1.281x10^-54 K per sec

So is my reasoning okay here?
 
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bbbl67 said:
I was wondering how do you calculate the the rate of cooling of the universe?

There isn't just one rate. There are (at least) three, one for each of the three distinct kinds of "stuff" that the universe is composed of: radiation, matter, and dark energy. Each of these three kinds of stuff has a different density, temperature, and pressure, and is affected differently by expansion.

bbbl67 said:
All I could think of is using the Ideal Gas Law from Thermodynamics

Unfortunately, this won't work, because none of the three different kinds of stuff behaves like an ideal gas:

Radiation is inherently relativistic and has an equation of state that does not involve temperature at all (and therefore can't be an ideal gas because the ideal gas equation of state does involve temperature).

Matter has zero pressure so the ideal gas equation is useless for describing it.

Dark energy has a constant density and pressure, and to the extent "temperature" even makes sense as a concept for it, its temperature is therefore constant as well.
 
So how do you calculate any of this?
 
bbbl67 said:
So how do you calculate any of this?
You have to compute the new distribution function. You can do this for a non-interacting gas by computing the redshift of the momentum. Only for the relativistic gas is the new distribution going to be a Maxwell Boltzmann distribution if you start from one.
 
bbbl67 said:
Summary:: Trying to figure out, on my own, how to calculate the universe's rate of cooling. Used the Ideal Gas Law, but I'm not sure if that's the right way.

Okay, just for kicks, I was wondering how do you calculate the the rate of cooling of the universe? All I could think of is using the Ideal Gas Law from Thermodynamics:

Ideal Gas Law:

P V = n R T |
V | volume
P | pressure
n | amount
T | temperature
R | molar gas constant (≈ 8.314 J/(mol K))

I assumed P & n stay pretty constant, then temperature (T) varies directly with volume (V). So the change in volume is equal to the change in temperature.

ΔV = R ΔT

So assuming that the Hubble Parameter (I know this number is controversial, but I just picked one of them) is:

H_0 ≈ 68 km/s/Mpc (kilometers per second per megaparsec)
≈ 2.2×10^-18 per second

So the volumetric version of the Hubble Parameter would just be the cube of H_0:

H_0^3 ≈ (2.2×10^-18)^3 per second
≈ 1.065×10^-53 per second

So the universe's volume would grow by a factor of 1.065×10^-53 per second.

ΔT = ΔV/R
= 1.065×10^-53 / 8.314
= 1.281x10^-54 K per sec

So is my reasoning okay here?
This doesn't work because the overall temperature of the universe is a gas of photons, not an ideal gas.

But the good news is it's much simpler. The temperature of the universe, currently 2.725K, is proportional to one over the scale factor. That is:

##T = {T_0 \over a}##

Here ##T_0## is the temperature when ##a=1##. If we define ##a=1## to be now, then ##T_0 = 2.725##K. The rate of change in the temperature can then be determined using a derivative:

$${dT \over dt} = T_0 {d \over dt} {1 \over a} = -{T_0 \over a^2} {da \over dt}$$

Now we can use the definition of the Hubble parameter to put this into terms that relate to observations:

$$H(t) = {1 \over a}{da \over dt}$$

So:

$${dT \over dt} = -{T_0 \over a} H(t)$$

At the current time, ##H(t) = H_0##, and ##a = 1##, so the present rate of change in temperature is ##-T_0 H_0##.

In units of ##1/s##, ##H_0## is approximately equal to ##2 \times 10^{-18}##, so the rate of change in temperature is roughly ##-6 \times 10^{-18}##K/s.
 
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kimbyd said:
the overall temperature of the universe is a gas of photons

The temperature of the CMB is that of a gas of photons. But it's not necessarily the case that this is "the overall temperature of the universe". It depends on how you define the latter term.
 
PeterDonis said:
The temperature of the CMB is that of a gas of photons. But it's not necessarily the case that this is "the overall temperature of the universe". It depends on how you define the latter term.
If you're far away from any local structures, it's the temperature you'd equilibrate to.

I don't think there's another definition that would be reasonably useful.
 
The Friedmann equations from a matter-point of view are just ideal-hydro equations, which follows already from the symmetry of the FLRW solution alone. From them you can derive explicitly the equation
$$\mathrm{d}_t (\epsilon a^3) + P \mathrm{d}_t a^3,$$
where ##\epsilon## is the internal energy density and ##P## the pressure of the "substrate". To close the equation you need an equation of state. Usually one considers "dust", i.e., ##P=0## or ultrarelativistic matter (and of course electromagnetic radiation) with ##\epsilon=3P##. Leading to ##\epsilon a^3=\text{const}## for dust and ##\epsilon a^4=\text{const}## for ultrarelativistic matter.
 

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