How do you cope with not knowing?

[iDimension]

I feel a little hesitant about posting this here but who better to ask than people who study and who've studied the universe as their career? I don't want to make this a depressing topic but don't any of you ever get a little bit upset that you're probably going to die without knowing certain things about the universe?

I was thinking about people like Newton, Galileo, Archimedes and all the other people who spent their lives thinking, dreaming and asking about the universe and look how much we've discovered since their deaths... I can't help but feel sad that such great people missed out on such great discoveries.

So my question to some of you is, don't you ever get a bit upset that you also will miss out on some incredible discoveries? Questions that you've dreamt of, questions that you've thought of while taking a bath or even when reading this thread.

If you don't mind me asking, what question(s) would you like to see answered most by science before you die? I wonder what Newton's, Galilieo's and Einstein's questions were... Perhaps we've answered them now but they missed out :(

Sorry if this is a depressing thread but it's really just curiosity and perhaps some advice :)

 

[Evo]

It's a waste of the life you have now to worry over what happens after you die. Enjoy now.

 

[lisab]

Sure there are scientists who study the universe, and that's cool and all, but - most scientists don't .

I think "not knowing" is a more interesting state that "knowing". Being in that first phase of figuring something out is a wonderful feeling! Once you figure it out, it's satisfying for sure. But it's nothing like wrestling with a new problem.

And finding new ways to look at old problems is awesome too - so never think you know something completely. For example I recently saw a geometrical derivation of the quadratic formula that made me swoon :!). Those kinds of little joys make me much happier than thinking about the universe.

 

[OmCheeto]

...
For example I recently saw a geometrical derivation of the quadratic formula that made me swoon :!). ...

Share, or die... I must know.

 

[iDimension]

It's a waste of the life you have now to worry over what happens after you die. Enjoy now.

I'm not worrying about what happens after I die, once I'm gone what happens is irrelevant. It's more the thought of passing without knowing certain things about the universe. I guess you're right in the sense that there is no point worrying about what we might not discover because at the end of the day, some of the questions I have might well be answered within the next 70 years.

I try to be humble and accept not knowing as being part of what it means to be human but part of me hopes that tomorrow will be that day... that day when a question I have is answered.

Well for the moment it's out of my hands but hopefully I will contribute to the effort when I get older.

 

[256bits]

I was thinking about people like Newton, Galileo, Archimedes and all the other people who spent their lives thinking, dreaming and asking about the universe and look how much we've discovered since their deaths... I can't help but feel sad that such great people missed out on such great discoveries.
...
I wonder what Newton's, Galilieo's and Einstein's questions were... Perhaps we've answered them now but they missed out :(

Isn't that a bit presumptous of you to transfer your outlook on life and death upon these people, or for the matter, upon anyone anyone else that you do not know personally. While it is one of the human conditions to idiolize figures and pedestal them, such as rock stars, singers, actors, or great scientists, unto which the whole business of pop culture has garnered around and thrives, the fact remains that the people closest around you, such as your family, friends, workers, aquaintances, are the most important people in your life. Having empathy for situations that do not exist, and never will exist is imaginative to say the least.

If someone came up to me and said they were so sad that I will not see the great accomplishments in store for humanity after my death, I would just tell them to go have another donut.

 

[iDimension]

If someone came up to me and said they were so sad that I will not see the great accomplishments in store for humanity after my death, I would just tell them to go have another donut.

The reason why I feel sad that these people missed out after devoting their lives to trying to solve the problem is because they were so deserving of the answers!

A prime example is Peter Higgs... I am so glad that his boson was discovered while he was alive, the thought that this poor man could have died without ever knowing if his boson actually existed. I'm glad he finally got his answer.

 

[lisab]

Share, or die... I must know.

I had a feeling someone would ask, since this is PF, after all. Will post it, I promise!

 

[Astronuc]

Newton, Galileo, Archimedes, Einstein, . . . all made significant contributions to the knowledge of mankind. I think they were sufficiently busy so as not to dwell on things unknown.

We now have the benefit of more knowledge since their times.

Einstein tried in vain for a 'unified field theory'.

Otherwise, one with a sufficient education can learn about various subjects and hopefully enjoy learning of new things, e.g., types of stars or galaxies. We will never get to other stars, but we can appreciate the beauty and uniqueness of the stars and galaxies, and some knowledge about their physics.

 

[Evo]

The reason why I feel sad that these people missed out after devoting their lives to trying to solve the problem is because they were so deserving of the answers!

A prime example is Peter Higgs... I am so glad that his boson was discovered while he was alive, the thought that this poor man could have died without ever knowing if his boson actually existed. I'm glad he finally got his answer.

This is a different angle on what you asked. Look on the bright side they worked on what they loved, not many people even get to do that during their life.

 

[OmCheeto]

...
not many people even get to do that during their life.

I hate you...

 

[George Jones]

I agree with Evo that we should not worry too much, and I agree lisab that knowing everything is even more depressing, but there are some things that do make me a little sad when I think about them.

One is quantum gravity. For over thirty years, I have have the same set of two conditions that I want to have satisfied: 1) a theory of quantum gravity is found and calculations are performed that can be used to make sharp comparisons with experiments; 2) I will be able to understand this theory in some technical detail.

I could end up too old for 2) to happen, and it could even be the case that 1) doesn't happen before I die.

 

[jbunniii]

On the bright side, few of us living today will have to endure whatever will pass for popular culture in the 22nd century. Paris Hilton, reality TV, etc. are already bad enough.

Also: get off my lawn.

 

[iDimension]

I agree with Evo that we should not worry too much, and I agree lisab that knowing everything is even more depressing, but there are some things that do make me a little sad when I think about them.

One is quantum gravity. For over thirty years, I have have the same set of two conditions that I want to have satisfied: 1) a theory of quantum gravity is found and calculations are performed that can be used to make sharp comparisons with experiments; 2) I will be able to understand this theory in some technical detail.

I could end up too old for 2) to happen, and it could even be the case that 1) doesn't happen before I die.

Exactly. Maybe some day :)

 

[interhacker]

I sort of agree with Feynman, on this issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1RqTP5Unr4

 

[ZapperZ]

Who actually studied "The Universe"? I know of no one who had done that, or is doing that.

What we do is study a small, VERY SMALL, piece of our world. Even Einstein, who a lot of people held up as "God", only studied specific aspects of field theory and mechanics. While it may have wide-ranging implications about our understanding, this was not the "universe"!

Whoever claim to be studying, or wanting to study, "the universe", is sadly delusional or misinformed.

Zz.

 

[interhacker]

Whoever claim to be studying, or wanting to study, "the universe", is sadly delusional or misinformed.

Zz.

What about cosmologists, though?

 

[ZapperZ]

What about cosmologists, though?

And what do cosmologists study? For example, look at the various papers on cosmology. Do you think each of these papers describes our entire universe? Or do they specifically focus on a particular phenomenon or description? Dark energy isn't "The Universe", for example. Yet, there are papers on the various theoretical properties of DE, etc. This is not "The Universe"!

It's like claiming that you study the whole cow, when all you're looking at is the hoof.

Zz.

 

[interhacker]

Dark energy isn't "The Universe", for example. Yet, there are papers on the various theoretical properties of DE, etc. This is not "The Universe"!

It's like claiming that you study the whole cow, when all you're looking at is the hoof.

Zz.

I see your point. You're right. Thanks.

 

[iDimension]

Who actually studied "The Universe"? I know of no one who had done that, or is doing that.

What we do is study a small, VERY SMALL, piece of our world. Even Einstein, who a lot of people held up as "God", only studied specific aspects of field theory and mechanics. While it may have wide-ranging implications about our understanding, this was not the "universe"!

Whoever claim to be studying, or wanting to study, "the universe", is sadly delusional or misinformed.

Zz.

When I said "study the universe" I meant cosmology, astrophysics, stars, planets, space, time, matter etc. Anyway apples and oranges here... I think most people knew what I meant.

Would you not agree that someone who studies quantum mechanics or astrophysics probably thinks more about "the universe" than a bricklayer or a computer scientist? I would think so? I absolutely love Richard Feynmans outlook on not knowing but I'm sure he had some burning questions which he would have liked to have seen answered before his passing.

Obviously this is a problem I have and not many people can relate to it but for me there's just something about spending your entire life trying to solve a problem and never finding the answer... In Einsteins case it was his unified field theory.

Anyway only one person here has actually stated what they would love to see answered before they pass. I would have thought as physicists and star-gazers there might have been something you've wanted to know for as long as you could remember. Do you not feel any desire to know the answer to one of your most burning questions?

 

[ZapperZ]

When I said "study the universe" I meant cosmology, astrophysics, stars, planets, space, time, matter etc. Anyway apples and oranges here... I think most people knew what I meant.

No one study ALL those, and no one study all of "cosmology, astrophysics, etc..." Each one of these are HUGE fields with a lot of different subfield. It is outrageous to think that one person can master it all.

And that was my point if you read it carefully, that even people in those fields often focus on a particular aspect of that subject area, not on the ENTIRE field of study. Again, look at the types of papers being published in those fields. Other than a review paper, point out to me a paper, say, in Nature or Science or PRL, that address "the universe" or an entire field of, say, cosmology.

Would you not agree that someone who studies quantum mechanics or astrophysics probably thinks more about "the universe" than a bricklayer or a computer scientist? I would think so? I absolutely love Richard Feynmans outlook on not knowing but I'm sure he had some burning questions which he would have liked to have seen answered before his passing.

No, because your idea of "the universe" is a study beyond the reach of mortal human beings. I studied "quantum mechanics", and most of my career as a physics, I worry about the process of electron emission out of material and how exotic superconductors work. I thought about "the universe" when I was a naive kid and before I learned about physics and how HUGE and varied it is, fully of a lot of exciting, stupendous area of study that isn't about just something esoteric! Being able to produce an understanding that could lead to either a better technological product, or even saves lives, has it own rewards and fulfillment without needed a grandiose goal of studying "the universe".

Obviously this is a problem I have and not many people can relate to it but for me there's just something about spending your entire life trying to solve a problem and never finding the answer... In Einsteins case it was his unified field theory.

Anyway only one person here has actually stated what they would love to see answered before they pass. I would have thought as physicists and star-gazers there might have been something you've wanted to know for as long as you could remember. Do you not feel any desire to know the answer to one of your most burning questions?

Nope, because my "burning questions" are not the same as yours. And guess what, if I can get an answer to one of my burning questions, high energy physicists might be able to build cheaper and more compact particle collider to study elementary particles, or a patient needing a PET scan would be subjected to a significantly less radiation exposure and less time spent in the scanner.

Physics isn't just the LHC and cosmology. It is also your iPhone, your MRI, your capacitive touch screen, etc. When you try to demean what is essentially the largest group of practicing physicists (check the membership number of the various APS subdivision) by questioning on why they are not thinking, or interested, in YOUR "burning question", then you have shown that you really have very little understanding on the nature this profession.

Zz.

 

[Monique]

I spend time wondering about the stuff I'm not knowing and how ancient the time must be we're living in now (for the future generation). On the other hand I'm awed by the revolutions that have happened since my existence, so I am very happy to be part of this time and can't wait to get to know the new technologies that will be emerging.

Recently a great Dutch astronaut and physicist passed away: Wubbo Ockels. In him I saw the great regret of having to leave this world, he so much wanted to continue and be a part of it. In the end he was happy with the life he lived, that's the most important thing.

 

[lendav_rott]

What do you mean how do I cope with not knowing? How do you cope with knowing what you think you might know?
I know enough to get by and too little which helps me sleep well at nights, that works for me.

By paraphrasing you could say, I cope with not knowing by not caring. I've been told it is a very ignorant way to look at things, but at the same time nobody has given me a credible counter-argument. What I mean by credible is something that person themself believes in, not just throwing words in the air trying to act tough, I've seen plenty of those.

 

[OmCheeto]

I spend time wondering about the stuff I'm not knowing and how ancient the time must be we're living in now (for the future generation). On the other hand I'm awed by the revolutions that have happened since my existence, so I am very happy to be part of this time and can't wait to get to know the new technologies that will be emerging.

Recently a great Dutch astronaut and physicist passed away: Wubbo Ockels. In him I saw the great regret of having to leave this world, he so much wanted to continue and be a part of it. In the end he was happy with the life he lived, that's the most important thing.

Just imagine, what you would have been awed by, were you 30 years older.

Guess what this image is:

And guess what I just scanned the image from.

 

[Bandersnatch]

Learning helps me cope with not knowing.

 

[Monique]

Just imagine, what you would have been awed by, were you 30 years older.

Guess what this image is:

And guess what I just scanned the image from.

Well, the url says it's the pre Hubble crab nebula Not sure where you scanned it from, it could've been *gasp* ... a book! Now a days we can search images, so maybe this one? https://www.amazon.com/dp/0387307346/?tag=pfamazon01-20

But no kidding, I saw personal computers enter the house hold (running on cassette tapes), now we all have "super computers" in our pockets like it is nothing. I love it And internet, such a novel thing and I'm so happy I'm there to use it!

 

[iDimension]

But no kidding, I saw personal computers enter the house hold (running on cassette tapes), now we all have "super computers" in our pockets like it is nothing. I love it And internet, such a novel thing and I'm so happy I'm there to use it!

There was never a time for me when we didn't have a computer in the house but I remember floppy drives, cassettes, vcr tapes and the first mobile with a camera! I wonder what the future will bring. Imagine if we bought Faraday back from the dead now, look at what his discovery has made possible yet he never had the chance to experience any of it.

But on the flip side I am uttery greatful for great people that have come before me and allowed me to type this very message to you now, to capture my favorite event on camera, to speak to a friend on a mobile in a matter of seconds and all the other wonderous things.

I feel a little bit like a criminal... they did all the hard work and here I am enjoying the rewards without having contributed at all. All I'm saying is it's a shame that some of the people which made possible all these things, never actually got the chance to experience them.

 

[Choppy]

Sure, there are things that I'm not likely to see. I don't know that I get all that upset over things that I'm unlikely to know because I don't know what problems will be solved later today, let alone in my lifetime. I can make educated guesses, but they're only guesses and there's no real point in worrying over that.

Some things I'd really like to see happen (assuming they are possible):
1. The accumulation of evidence for extra-terrestrial life.
2. Significant advances in the treatment of diseases like cancer and Alzheimer's.
3. The implementation of non-violent and sustainable solutions to world over-population.

 

[OmCheeto]

Well, the url says it's the pre Hubble crab nebula

:thumbs:

Not sure where you scanned it from, it could've been *gasp* ... a book!

:thumbs: (1990 edition of the Encyclopædia Britannica. I couldn't find a pre-Hubble image on the internets)

Now a days we can search images, so maybe this one? https://www.amazon.com/dp/0387307346/?tag=pfamazon01-20

But no kidding, I saw personal computers enter the house hold (running on cassette tapes)

O.M.G. I thought you were about 25 years old. My first two computers ran on cassette tapes!

, now we all have "super computers" in our pockets like it is nothing. I love it And internet, such a novel thing and I'm so happy I'm there to use it!

:thumbs:

ditto kid. ditto.

ps. I mentioned the Crab Nebula because, when I first saw the Hubble images, I didn't recognize it. I was like Jodi Foster, blubbering, and laughing, from Contact.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3deNVM3EWIc​

Some...celestial event...
No…no words.
No words...to describe it.
Poetry.
They should have sent...a poet.
It's so beautiful.
Beautiful.
So beautiful.
So beautiful.
I had no idea.
I had no idea.
I had no idea.
I had no idea.​

I wonder if Galileo giggled, nervously, when he discovered the satellites, of Jupiter.

I imagine, that he did.

 

[Monique]

:thumbs:

:thumbs: (1990 edition of the Encyclopædia Britannica. I couldn't find a pre-Hubble image on the internets)

I used to have a floppy disk with (part of) Encyclopædia Britannica on it, I always wanted to buy the books because it would be awesome to have all that knowledge. Now there is the internet

O.M.G. I thought you were about 25 years old. My first two computers ran on cassette tapes!

Add 8 years to that I'm 33, the other day a sales person on the street asked me "are you living on your own already?" Implying he doubted if I was still living with my parents The first game console our family had was Pong, you connected this thing to the television screen and then you could play a primitive form of tennis. Then we obtained a personal computer that ran on cassette tapes. Lately at my work I'm hearing people say "if you used this [genetics] technology, you're ancient". So, it's official: I'm ancient.

:thumbs:

ditto kid. ditto.

ps. I mentioned the Crab Nebula because, when I first saw the Hubble images, I didn't recognize it. I was like Jodi Foster, blubbering, and laughing, from Contact.

At first I didn't recognize your image, it's wonderful how much more detailed the images have become.

 

[OmCheeto]

I used to have a floppy disk with (part of) Encyclopædia Britannica on it, I always wanted to buy the books because it would be awesome to have all that knowledge. Now there is the internet

Add 8 years to that I'm 33, the other day a sales person on the street asked me "are you living on your own already?" Implying he doubted if I was still living with my parents The first game console our family had was Pong, you connected this thing to the television screen and then you could play a primitive form of tennis. Then we obtained a personal computer that ran on cassette tapes. Lately at my work I'm hearing people say "if you used this [genetics] technology, you're ancient". So, it's official: I'm ancient.

At first I didn't recognize your image, it's wonderful how much more detailed the images have become.

Yay!

You just made my day.

33, and ancient...

 

[Monique]

I've never used punch cards, I'm not THAT old

 

[Buckleymanor]

And what do cosmologists study? For example, look at the various papers on cosmology. Do you think each of these papers describes our entire universe? Or do they specifically focus on a particular phenomenon or description? Dark energy isn't "The Universe", for example. Yet, there are papers on the various theoretical properties of DE, etc. This is not "The Universe"!

It's like claiming that you study the whole cow, when all you're looking at is the hoof.

Zz.

Reminds me of a quote from Mr, Newton and others:-


“I do not know what I may appear to the world, but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the shore now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me.” Live your life as an Exclamation rather than an Explanation.

 

[reenmachine]

It is indeed frustrating knowing that you will not know the answers to the mysteries of the universe.Even worst , you probably won't know a single thing completely because everything is endlessly complicated.This is especially frustrating when you're an extremely curious person.

But beyond that frustration , I have to say that I prefer a universe filled with mysteries and answers to discover than a universe where everything is known.That great feeling of discovering something exists because there are many deep mysteries waiting to be solved.To me , mysteries give life all it's flavors (granted this is a weird metaphor but that's what spontaneously came to my mind).

 

[jim hardy]

Yay!

You just made my day.

33, and ancient...

You just made mine !

You can repair a "broken" file on that medium with Scotch tape and a toothpick. We've both no doubt done it, too.

We ran an ASR33 until 1990. You probably had KSR's in the military.

 

[AlephZero]

"Paper" paper tape was the wimpy stuff. I've still got some of the oil-and-waterproof tape we used to use for numerical controlled machine tools, before "NC" turned into "CNC".

Those old paper tape punches were indestructible. I remember once coming into the tape duplicating room and finding one that had vibrated itself off its table and was still working away upside down on the floor.

We once gave some apprentices a "design and make" project to build a tape splicing block. They did a pretty good job, except for one small design flaw. They built it to last for ever, out of solid stainless steel, and it weighed about 20 pounds!

 

[OmCheeto]

You just made mine !

You can repair a "broken" file on that medium with Scotch tape and a toothpick. We've both no doubt done it, too.

We ran an ASR33 until 1990. You probably had KSR's in the military.

"ASR33 until 1990"? Good god!

I used an ASR33 for one term during my sophomore year in high school, circa 1975. There were no more computer classes offered after that...

When I got to my submarine in 1979, they were up to hub-cap sized floppies, an IBM Selectric style keyboard, and no paper.

Within a year or two, I was the first person on the ship to have purchased their own PC. Which for all the young kids out there, did not mean "A Microsoft machine" (vs "An Apple").
It meant; "MY OWN PERSONAL COMPUTER!"

argh.

ps.

Wilbur and Orville Wright's First Flight
December 17, 1903
"For some years, I have been afflicted with the belief that flight is possible to man. My disease has increased in severity and I feel that it will soon cost me an increased amount of money if not my life." Three years after Wilbur Wright wrote those words, he and his brother Orville put their belief in flight to the test in Kill Devil Hills, North Carolina.

Did their attempt to fly an airplane they had built in sections in the back room of their Dayton, Ohio bicycle shop cost Wilbur his life?...

According to wiki, 8 of the surviving oldest 100 people, ever, were born before we hadn't even had powered flight.

And there I got to sit, as a 10 year old, watch us become actual space travelers.

pps. I was 11 when I got to take my first flight on a 747. As I recall, it was a big deal when those planes were introduced.

 

[OmCheeto]

I've never used punch cards, I'm not THAT old

Yes, we determined that.

Punched "card"

I'd seen punch cards, but was about a year or two too old to have actually had to use them.

Take that, really, really old dudes!

 

[edward]

Yes, we determined that.

Punched "card"

I'd seen punch cards, but was about a year or two too old to have actually had to use them.

Take that, really, really old dudes!

So did you ever bend, fold, spindle, or mutilate a punch card??

 

[jim hardy]

Punch cards? You bet we mutilated them with creative "Go To" statements.

Way back when i was in college , like 1964, gasoline company credit machines used half size punch cards with carbon paper for the receipt. You signed it, kept the top sheet of paper and at month's end the company's computer mailed the punch cards to you along with with your bill.
Well, gas was around 25 cents a gallon in Missouri. I had Dad's credit card for emergencies so for a lark charged a tank of gas for my motorcycle, It was around forty-five cents...
I wrote "Hi Dad" on the back of the punch card,
when the bill arrived he took the punch card to work to show off as "A letter from my kid in college".

You know, they just don't make nostalgia like they used to.

old jim

 

[D H]

So did you ever bend, fold, spindle, or mutilate a punch card??

Yes.

Do you remember why some of these decks have a diagonal line(s) drawn on them?

 

[edward]

If the cards were dropped the lines on the sides helped to put them back in order.OK I cheated. I found it on a blog. It is an interesting blog about old computer technology, or I should say this page of it is.

http://mike-duncombe.blogspot.com/2012/12/living-in-future.html

I was in underground missile silos during that time frame. It seems to me my monthly pay checks were punch cards. We loaded targeting information into the guidance systems using that wonderful punched paper tape someone mentioned.

http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Titan-II-targeting-tape.jpg