How do you read the flirting traffic signals women send men?

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  • #26
DaveC426913
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So what I'm trying to figure out from this, if they stick hidden cameras at singles' events and find that most of the time when a man asks a woman on a date she sends body language signals, and most of the time when men get rejected she didn't actually send those signals, then how do we explain that?
Explain what?
 
  • #27
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Explain what?
Sorry for any confusion on how I worded it. What I meant by that is in Science although you can't prove absolute truth, you can say given the evidence this is the best explanation. If someone says that women don't send men signals, particularly body language signals to regulate when they'd be receptive to male interaction, then the study with the cameras doesn't make any sense. Given that it's been replicated, it causes even more cognitive dissonance. It would be unexplained evidence. However, the study would make the most sense if women really do send body language signals (either consciously or subconsciously) to give the green light. Using the least amount of assumptions to explain the most amount of facts, well you get my point.

Of course you can't prove absolute "this is the whole and nothing but the truth" using the Scientific Method and perhaps there's a lot more than body language signals (although many say it's more non-verbal at first), but based on the study it would seem rational body language is a big part.
 
  • #28
DaveC426913
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If someone says that women don't send men signals..
Who is claiming this does not happen?
 
  • #29
Astronuc
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Body language has been around since before a spoken language. For the most part it is done subconsciously. There are plenty of web sites that describe human body language.
Fortunately I have Aspberger's syndrome, so I'm apparently oblivious to body language. :biggrin:
 
  • #30
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People can lie with anything, but most can lie verbally a lot easier than multiple channels of body language.
Don't count on that. Some people are very, very skilled at body language and use it pointedly. Don't ever forget that.
 
  • #31
DaveC426913
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Don't count on that. Some people are very, very skilled at body language and use it pointedly. Don't ever forget that.
That's what he said. Yes, some people are skilled at lying through their body language, but most people are much better liars verbally.
 
  • #32
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True that. Lying well with your body takes skill.
 
  • #33
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Sorry for any confusion on how I worded it. What I meant by that is in Science although you can't prove absolute truth, you can say given the evidence this is the best explanation. If someone says that women don't send men signals, particularly body language signals to regulate when they'd be receptive to male interaction, then the study with the cameras doesn't make any sense. Given that it's been replicated, it causes even more cognitive dissonance. It would be unexplained evidence. However, the study would make the most sense if women really do send body language signals (either consciously or subconsciously) to give the green light. Using the least amount of assumptions to explain the most amount of facts, well you get my point.

Of course you can't prove absolute "this is the whole and nothing but the truth" using the Scientific Method and perhaps there's a lot more than body language signals (although many say it's more non-verbal at first), but based on the study it would seem rational body language is a big part.
Well, if you want a non-scientific, completely made up explanation of body language, there's always NLP. I met this British dude in a bar who claimed to be a NLP expert. He was going to demonstrate his skill to me by picking up some women. He was pretty drunk, and the results were hillarious. At one point he jumped in the air and spun around. It didn't work.

Basic body language isn't that hard to read. Rolling your eyes does generally mean exasperation, someone turning their back to you means they don't want to talk to you, etc.

I think the difficulty that a large study of body language would run into is that language is not universally expressed. Even in places where the same language is spoken, there can be so much subtle difference between how individual people use language. While a study might uncover some generalities, it is probably more useful to get an intuitive feel for how people use body language for the purposes you are describing.
 
  • #34
BobG
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....it is probably more useful to get an intuitive feel for how people use body language for the purposes you are describing.
That's generally how it's supposed to work in just about the entire animal kingdom.

A reliance on language to the point that our thoughts wind up being a constant narrative to ourselves suppresses some of our reliance on body language - at least to the point that many people are uncertain if they're reading other peoples' signals correctly.
 
  • #35
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it is probably more useful to get an intuitive feel for how people use body language for the purposes you are describing.
And so what about those who aren't as good at getting that "intuitive feel"? Don't you think using something that works 9/10 times is better than nothing at all? As an analogy, if someone has a learning disorder or dyslexia, do you say, "Oh, just figure it out on your own," even after they keep on trying to figure it out over and over again. Why can't there also be people who neurologically don't catch on as well to interacting with members of the opposite sex? Someone who learns to play the piano or a sophicated sport may not learn by being thrown into the deep end of the pool, but can still learn from "real life experience/practice" if they're given instruction and what to look for/try. Why can't that "playing the piano/sport" method be used for those who don't catch on as well? Aren't there some world class piano/sports players, even if those areas aren't learned by intuitive feel and by being thrown into the deep end of the pool? So what if social skills were to be learned that way?

Consider this, we've all seen social retards who keep on hitting on the same person over and over again and then the woman complains that the guy just doesn't take a hint, or on the other hand those guys who never ask anyone because of fear of rejection/don't know what to do (I'm the second type). It's not like we're training to be FBI agents dealing with psychopaths who are deceivers, but rather trying to find out if someone's simply interested so that there's more date asking and at the same time less rejection.

Something to consider, if there are many studies with cameras, or similar ways of studying, that have found most of the time when a man asks a woman on a date she actually shows subtle body language signals, and most of the time when he gets rejected she didn't actually send signals, don't you think something's going on? (just because many are sent subconsciously doesn't mean they don't happen) The only way the evidence makes any sense is if subtle body language have some part in the process. If not, how do you EXPLAIN all those studies?

Now because of that last line in your last post, I'm confused if what you're really trying to say is women normally give those signals listed in post 9 when they're not interested, or if you're instead saying for the most part it's typically that way but there are a few exceptions to the rule? I'm confused, are you saying from your experience women normally let a shoe dangle from their feet or even perhaps “lick their lips” when they notice a guy watching who they think is a “pig”??? :confused: :confused: Do they try to sit/stand closer than personal space would normally allow, or lean toward him smiling, if it's a guy they have no interest in?
 
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  • #36
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Well, if you want a non-scientific, completely made up explanation of body language, there's always NLP. I met this British dude in a bar who claimed to be a NLP expert. He was going to demonstrate his skill to me by picking up some women. He was pretty drunk, and the results were hillarious. At one point he jumped in the air and spun around. It didn't work.

Basic body language isn't that hard to read. Rolling your eyes does generally mean exasperation, someone turning their back to you means they don't want to talk to you, etc.

I think the difficulty that a large study of body language would run into is that language is not universally expressed. Even in places where the same language is spoken, there can be so much subtle difference between how individual people use language. While a study might uncover some generalities, it is probably more useful to get an intuitive feel for how people use body language for the purposes you are describing.
Although some body language differs culture to culture (many gestures, etc), many of the facial expressions are supposed to be universal. One thing I found interesting is even people born blind have universal facial expressions, even if different intensities.

Here's something I found interesting that you may want to check out on the Universality of Facial Expressions, by the American Psychological Association.

http://www.apa.org/journals/releases/psp9611.pdf [Broken]

It compared the athletes born blind in the 2004 Paralympic Games with those without impaired vision in the 2004 Olympic Games. It was interesting how there are universal facial expressions out there, regardless of culture and if you were blind at birth.

They've also given facial expressions tests to tribes living away from civilization, in the middle of now where, and found a lot of universality. According to the research, many of the facial expressions are supposed to be universal; however the “intensity” and “context for where it's socially appropriate” can differ (for example, east Asians versus U.S. versus Latin American countries). Interestingly, chimpanzees have similar facial expressions that humans have, even if there are some differences.

So with that in mind about some types of body language, one thing I'm wondering about is reference 3 that I listed in the original post:

“Reference that many women flirting signals are universal across the world, even if with different variations:

3. Cook, Mark and Robert McHenry, 1978. Sexual Attraction. New York Pergamon Press”
 
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  • #37
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Don't count on that. Some people are very, very skilled at body language and use it pointedly. Don't ever forget that.
Putting flirting aside and looking at body language in general, what about what works in the real world and personal experience???


Consider, I was looking at a teach yourself body language book and tried out various exercises. For example, people will make one second glances at others (although usually not longer) and see if the other one does the same, then there may be a “hi”. If the other person makes no eye contact or very brief and instantly away, there's no social interaction. However, if they make decent enough eye contact, there is interaction, even if a brief “Hi” (or in the case of flirting, maybe even looking down and then back again, or a smile with eye contact). Also some people who are ignorant very vaguely say “Make eye contact if you want to be more social”. However, if you notice people don't just stare at each other in the eyes, and the peer-review research confirms that. Notice people at the library walking past each other versus a party versus other places, how they make eye contact. People also have a specific timing when they make eye contact, and then the other person can either respond with their eyes a certain way or not. You can even watch people having conversations, and then try body language book exercise. You'll notice patterns, people usually don't stare even when having a conversation. Generally (unless walking side by side in a store and a few exceptions), the person listening makes more eye contact than the person talking, and they use eye contact to send the conversation back and forth. If someone breaks the “unwritten rules” of eye contact it's seen as interrupting or awkward. You can even experiment with some of this by when talking, try staring intently at the listener right before pausing, versus breaking eye contact with the him/her right before pausing (and whether the other sees it as a hand off, people with social skills respond if you try this do it yourself exercise while those who are bad socially act differently). You can also try giving more eye contact when listening, without staring or making them feel uncomfortable of course, and you'll notice they talk more. You can try staring someone you know down and that if you ask them how they felt after they look away, they felt uncomfortable. Although I don't have a lover, one exercise is to also try staring into the eyes of a lover and you'll find they then feel more emotionally connected. (Staring either means aggression or intense emotional feelings, often romantic) You can facilitate social interaction with eye contact, and regulate interest!

Then another exercise, notice that people move their heads when talking. Just like monotone voices put people to sleep, a do it yourself exercise is no head movement/nods makes the conversation shorter. If you observe others who are talking to each other, the one speaking moves their head according to how they make points, sentences, etc. The listener has a specific way of nodding to either show they're listening to the points, or a different intensity of nodding to show agreement. Most aren't even aware of what's going on, but you can observe multiple conversations and see the differences and what goes on, how interested they are and how long the conversation actually lasts because of it. Even the number of nods regulates flow/speed of social interaction, or even confuses if done in an abnormal way. The speed of nods affects the conversation also. You can even do the try the “do it yourself exercises” by observing and then playing around with head movements/nods and see how the other interacts.
 
  • #38
DaveC426913
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My God you are a prolific writer. Those three posts span a mere ten minutes.
 
  • #39
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You're right. Epic posts!
 
  • #40
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My God you are a prolific writer. Those three posts span a mere ten minutes.
I actually just wrote one long post at first, then decided it would make more sense to break it up into three posts. So there was just cutting and pasting :smile: My words per minute is only 40, if I need to be tested for copying rather than actually putting thought into it.
 
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  • #41
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And so what about those who aren't as good at getting that "intuitive feel"? Don't you think using something that works 9/10 times is better than nothing at all? As an analogy, if someone has a learning disorder or dyslexia, do you say, "Oh, just figure it out on your own," even after they keep on trying to figure it out over and over again. Why can't there also be people who neurologically don't catch on as well to interacting with members of the opposite sex? Someone who learns to play the piano or a sophicated sport may not learn by being thrown into the deep end of the pool, but can still learn from "real life experience/practice" if they're given instruction and what to look for/try. Why can't that "playing the piano/sport" method be used for those who don't catch on as well? Aren't there some world class piano/sports players, even if those areas aren't learned by intuitive feel and by being thrown into the deep end of the pool? So what if social skills were to be learned that way?
Well, a large component of autism is the inability to understand body language, so yes absolutely, ther can be a neurological component. Of course autistics tend to have difficulty with the meaning aspect of language in general, not just body language. Almost certainly there is a natural range of innate lingusitic ability.

However, the manner in which you are discussing learning body language would seem to lead to a very superficial understanding. It's sort of like when one attempts to learn a foreign language, and insists on what a word "means" in english. While a translation of a sentence can be provided, the exact meaning of many words and their syntactic use and context are specific to the language they are a part of. Learning a language in a classroom is not going to be the same thing as learning the language in an immersive organic way.

Do you have difficulty understanding the verbal/non-verbal language of people in general, or is it a problem specific to the arena of flirting with women?
 
  • #42
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Perhaps not flirting in particular, just reading their body language...girls are confusing.
 
  • #43
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Do you have difficulty understanding the verbal/non-verbal language of people in general, or is it a problem specific to the arena of flirting with women?
I'm not sure what my problem is, but I know I have issues with social skills in general. I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but I scored 38 on https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=330391

When I was reading about those flirting body language signals, which are supposed to be often subconscious, it said one signal isn't supposed to be watched out for but rather a pattern and the context it's in. So it's not like I would just notice one signal and then freak out (which I heard you're not supposed to "freak out" but rather often take an indirect and other things to make sure it's non-threatening approach, depending on the situation).

However, the manner in which you are discussing learning body language would seem to lead to a very superficial understanding. It's sort of like when one attempts to learn a foreign language, and insists on what a word "means" in english. While a translation of a sentence can be provided, the exact meaning of many words and their syntactic use and context are specific to the language they are a part of. Learning a language in a classroom is not going to be the same thing as learning the language in an immersive organic way.
So what if there were more to it than just book learning? Something to maybe consider, in post 37 I was talking about a body language book with do it yourself exercises. Wouldn't that make it so it's more than just book knowledge, but real life knowledge?

Holding onto that idea, just like you first learn the alphabet which in turn allows you to learn all words, what if you were to learn the building blocks of flirting and then with experience piece them together? The alphabet method probably would allow one to be a lot more flexible than trying to learn "you do this in this situation" method. Relating to that, those who study "flashes of insight" in the lab where they can control what knowledge people have, and outside of the lab, keep on reporting in peer-review academic journals that those who already have the building blocks for an idea have flashes of insight much easier while those who don't take much more time/tedious in figuring out an idea. Something to consider, what if one could use the do it yourself exercises style to learn the building blocks/the alphabet and then try to put it together and have "flashes of insight" when trying to learn flirting? Then maybe eventually there could be deeper understanding, if combined with the experience and flashes of insight alphabet?
 
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  • #44
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Do you have difficulty understanding the verbal/non-verbal language of people in general, or is it a problem specific to the arena of flirting with women?
About women sending men signals, and that women have an automatic body language response when feeling interested even if often unaware, something to consider is I went to Yahoo! Answers asking the women what they have to say about that body language from post 9. Their responses:

"very on-point"

"never thought about it much
but haha this is true
Source(s):
i'm a girl"

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...x4ta8D_sy6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20091016180411AA9rWBC


I also asked another time on Yahoo! Answers and although the men were hostile, the women were like:

"all true. too much to read!"

"I kinda do that when the guy I like walks in the room!!!!!


Silly right?"

"yup that sounds EXACTLY right. except for the last one, that's irrelevant, it doesn't make a difference. but it's weird, I never even noticed i did these things or why until you posted this."

"omg that is like all true lol yes all that is very true comin from a girl of my standards lol =] but usually we dont act goofy unless were away from them but still in veiw. But when closer around them we get real qiute."

"Oh, I definitely relate to most of those, especially licking my lips, playing with jewelry and twirling my hair.

I would never flash my underarm though, because I think that would be really weird to give him a nose-full. xD I think the underarm thing is more of a sign that she's comfortable with him, because most women I think tend not to show their armpits since it's considered unladylike. c:

I also believe that licking something while listening to a guy is a sign that she's looking for something sexual, since it obviously has underlying sexual suggestions."

"yeah all of that is pretty much true.
some of the movements are made through nervous reaction such as playing with her jewelry.
others are just because they are movements that we think are sensual in a way and may grab a guy's attention and turn him on a bit (i.e. using her finger to pet the rim of a bowl or stem of a glass)
and when we get closer to you or have something touching your arm or somthing it's because we just want that sense of physical connection because, well, we want you!

yes pretty much all of these are true, whether we intentionally do them or not- we do them :)"

"Ok, this totally sounds like you got everything off the internet. But if u want to know..Yes women do sit up when they see the guy.They try to look at the man a lot. smile and giggle around him.Play with hair. Some women don't even notice they do that. i Know i don't :]. She may want to touch you in some way. Always next to or around you. Act different when shes with the man. She will twirl anything that gets into her hands. Definitely show more cleavage, anywhere. That's basically the only normal once. Hope that helps!
Source(s):
All Me :]"

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...oYMKTW_sy6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20091015175438AABS8Ml
 
  • #45
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When I was younger and in better shape, my car of choice was a Jaguar.:cool: At the time, I enjoyed a great deal of flirting at traffic lights (I know the thread is not about activities at traffic lights). Now, for some reason the only gestures I receive (in my mini van, station wagon, or sedan) seem to be obscene and negative.:confused:
 
  • #46
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9


In my travels, I often paid attention to cultural differences in flirting. In several groups of people, its all done with the eyes, in some cases diverting looks mean more then a direct stare.
 
  • #47
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In my travels, I often paid attention to cultural differences in flirting. In several groups of people, its all done with the eyes, in some cases diverting looks mean more then a direct stare.
I think what you said is interesting. I've read from body language books that most nonverbal communication is done with the eyes, if they want to talk and position of eyes/eyelids shows emotions basically just as well as facial expressions do.

I just know there's several channels that send body language in addition to the eyes, so I'm interested in learning how to recognize multiple patterns to take a holistic approach.
 
  • #48
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One thing for everyone to maybe consider if you're doubting body language, I read in a book that if a member of the opposite sex makes eye contact and smiles at you, if you smile back they're going to respond differently than if you don't smile and just avoid eye contact. After reading that I tried it and it seems to work in real life. It just seems that body language is a useful tool.
 
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  • #49
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So if I'm understanding those who say people lie with body language correctly, one should just ignore body language altogether? For example, with that earlier example I mentioned that one guy who walked up to a woman who was a stranger and said, "You're beautiful." She had standoffish body language and a look on her face like she thought the situation was weird. Then he continued and asked, "So do a lot of guys ask for your number." She folded her arms and looked up and away. I could be wrong, but her body language seemed like cues to me. I'm not sure, but it seems like body language could be useful? this just seems weird that others don't think that. I'm just trying to understand?

Or for example, if you're in Las Vegas and see a prostitute, maybe she'll act flirty. However looking at some of that list of body language, if you're at a party I'm trying to figure out why would she be motivated to give a man patterns of those behaviors if she's not interested? At a party, why would she lean toward a guy, do that playing with hair, standing up straight when first seeing him, licking her lips, etc, at a guy she's not interested in? Isn't body language very automatic and takes a lot of effort to consciously modify, plus what would be the motivation to do that in these situations?

Trying to figure these things out.
 

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