How Does Air Pressure Behave in Vibrating Wind Instruments?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the behavior of air pressure in vibrating wind instruments, specifically focusing on tubes open at both ends and the effects of blocking one end. Participants explore concepts related to fundamental frequencies, overtones, and pressure oscillations within the tubes.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that in a tube open at both ends vibrating at its fundamental frequency, the air pressure is equal to atmospheric pressure at both ends, with maximum pressure oscillations occurring at the midpoint (pressure antinode).
  • Others argue that when vibrating at the second overtone, the pressure can be ambient at one end and either higher or lower at the other end, depending on the excitation of the tube.
  • It is suggested that blowing on one end of the tube may influence which end has regular pressure versus higher or lower pressure, although the outcome is not definitively stated.
  • Some participants mention that blocking one end of the tube changes the fundamental frequency, suggesting it becomes four times the length of the tube, while also introducing new pressure antinodes.
  • A participant expresses confusion about a specific detail regarding the placement of pressure antinodes in the modes, questioning whether a stated position should be corrected.
  • Another participant asserts that the original claim regarding the 1/3 point is indeed correct, providing a reference to support their position.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the basic principles of pressure behavior in vibrating tubes, but there is disagreement regarding specific details, such as the placement of pressure antinodes in the second overtone mode.

Contextual Notes

Some assumptions about the behavior of air pressure in vibrating tubes may not be fully explored, and the discussion includes unresolved points regarding the exact nature of pressure oscillations and the effects of blowing into the tube.

TheLil'Turkey
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In a tube (open at both ends) that's vibrating at its fundamental frequency, is the air pressure the ambient air pressure at both ends and higher in the middle, lower in the middle, or can it be either higher or lower in the middle? Why?

If the same tube is vibrating at the frequency of its second overtone (1/3 the wavelength of the fundamental frequency), can the pressure be the ambient pressure at one end and either higher or lower at the other end? If you blow on one end, does that end become the one with the regular pressure or the higher/lower one?

If one end of the tube is blocked, does its fundamental frequency then become half of what it was before?

String instruments seem so much easier to understand than wind ones.
 
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TheLil'Turkey said:
In a tube (open at both ends) that's vibrating at its fundamental frequency, is the air pressure the ambient air pressure at both ends and higher in the middle, lower in the middle, or can it be either higher or lower in the middle? Why?

If the same tube is vibrating at the frequency of its second overtone (1/3 the wavelength of the fundamental frequency), can the pressure be the ambient pressure at one end and either higher or lower at the other end? If you blow on one end, does that end become the one with the regular pressure or the higher/lower one?

If one end of the tube is blocked, does its fundamental frequency then become half of what it was before?

String instruments seem so much easier to understand than wind ones.

For a tube open at both ends, the pressure is equal to atmospheric at both ends. It oscillates inside the tube when excited at the appropriate frequency. The lowest mode will see the maximum pressure oscillations at mid-length (this is called a pressure antinode). So the lowest-mode (fundamental) wavelength is twice the tube length. The next higher mode with have two antinodes, at the 1/4 and 3/4 length points, and will have a wavelength equal to the tube length. The pitch will be an octave higher than the fundamental. The third mode (second overtone) will have three antinodes, at the 1/6, 1/2, and 5/6 length points. The open ends are still pressure nodes (equal to atmospheric).

If you block one end of the tube, that end becomes a pressure antinode. So the wavelength of the fundamental will be 4 times the length of the tube, the next mode will have two pressure antinodes, at the 1/3 point and the closed end (assuming the closed end is at 1), the next mode will have three pressure antinodes, at the 1/5, 3/5, and closed end (again closed=1).

BBB
 
bbbeard said:
For a tube open at both ends, the pressure is equal to atmospheric at both ends. It oscillates inside the tube when excited at the appropriate frequency. The lowest mode will see the maximum pressure oscillations at mid-length (this is called a pressure antinode). So the lowest-mode (fundamental) wavelength is twice the tube length. The next higher mode with have two antinodes, at the 1/4 and 3/4 length points, and will have a wavelength equal to the tube length. The pitch will be an octave higher than the fundamental. The third mode (second overtone) will have three antinodes, at the 1/6, 1/2, and 5/6 length points. The open ends are still pressure nodes (equal to atmospheric).

If you block one end of the tube, that end becomes a pressure antinode. So the wavelength of the fundamental will be 4 times the length of the tube, the next mode will have two pressure antinodes, at the 1/3 point and the closed end (assuming the closed end is at 1), the next mode will have three pressure antinodes, at the 1/5, 3/5, and closed end (again closed=1).

BBB
Wow. I was very confused before, but this cleared a lot of things up. I think you made one mistake though; the bolded 1/3 point should be 1/2, right?
 
TheLil'Turkey said:
Wow. I was very confused before, but this cleared a lot of things up. I think you made one mistake though; the bolded 1/3 point should be 1/2, right?

No, it's 1/3. See attached.
 

Attachments

  • pressureantinodes.jpg
    pressureantinodes.jpg
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That makes sense. Thank you!
 

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