How does one find the dual of a matrix?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of the dual of a matrix, exploring various interpretations and definitions of duality in the context of linear algebra and vector spaces. Participants inquire about the differences between dual matrices and inverse matrices, and the conversation extends to the properties of cross products in higher dimensions, particularly with four-vectors and their associated matrices.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants seek clarification on what is meant by "dual matrix," with references to specific mathematical relations involving matrices.
  • There is a suggestion that the dual of a complex square matrix could be the adjugate of that matrix, as it relates to determinants.
  • One participant notes that the term "dual matrix" is not well-defined and discusses various operations like transposition, inversion, and conjugation that could be considered as duals.
  • Another participant mentions the context of four-vectors and square 4x4 matrices, indicating a specific area of interest.
  • There is a query about the existence of a cross product for four-vectors, with differing views on whether such a product can be defined and what properties it would have.
  • Some participants discuss the conditions under which a cross product can exist in higher dimensions, referencing mathematical results related to the topology of spheres.
  • One participant expresses unfamiliarity with Lie algebra but acknowledges the discussion on cross products in relation to it.
  • Another participant suggests that duals are more appropriately assigned to vector spaces rather than matrices, proposing a canonical map related to linear transformations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the definition of a dual matrix, and multiple competing views remain regarding the nature of duality and the existence of cross products in four dimensions.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the ambiguity surrounding the term "dual matrix" and the various mathematical frameworks that could apply. There are unresolved questions about the properties and definitions of duals and cross products in higher dimensions.

grzz
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TL;DR
Does a matrix have a dual?
How does one find the dual of a matrix?
Thanks.
 
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Dual in what sense?
 
martinbn said:
Dual in what sense?
In the sense that,
dual matrix times matrix = number, maybe complex times (unit matrix).
 
grzz said:
In the sense that,
dual matrix times matrix = number, maybe complex times (unit matrix).
Can you specify precisely how this dual matrix differs from the more familiar inverse matrix?
 
renormalize said:
Can you specify precisely how this dual matrix differs from the more familiar inverse matrix?
Thanks for your help.
But the trouble is that I never met with a dual matrix. All I know is that a dual matrix obeys the relation I gave in my 2nd post.
 
grzz said:
In the sense that,
dual matrix times matrix = number, maybe complex times (unit matrix).
The dual matrix in the first sense is ill-defined. For example, if ##A## is a ##3\times 2## matrix, there does not exist an ##m\times n## matrix ##B## such that ##AB## is a number.

In the second sense you mentioned, I suppose the dual of a complex square matrix ##A## is the adjugate of ##A##, ##\operatorname{adj} A##; indeed, ##A(\operatorname{adj} A) = \det(A) I##.
 
grzz said:
Thanks for your help.
But the trouble is that I never met with a dual matrix. All I know is that a dual matrix obeys the relation I gave in my 2nd post.
There are many pairings that could be considered dual. A dual matrix to a matrix ##A## as a term isn't defined. You can transpose a matrix ##A^\dagger## , possibly invert a matrix ##A^{-1}##, conjugate complex matrices ##\overline{A},## or write ##A=\sum_{k=1}^r u_k\otimes v^*_k## and consider ##\sum_{k=1}^r u_k^*\otimes v_k## as its dual.
 
Thanks Euge.
I forgot to mention that I was dealing with four vectors and square 4x4 matrices.
Hence
 
Hence your reply fits what I was asking for.

Another query of mine is whether there is a cross product of 4-vectors like there is with 3-vectors.

Thanks so.much.
 
  • #10
grzz said:
Hence your reply fits what I was asking for.

Another query of mine is whether there is a cross product of 4-vectors like there is with 3-vectors.

Thanks so.much.
The cross product in ##\mathbb{R}^3## is a Lie product of a three-dimensional, real, simple Lie algebra. You can define several Lie products on ##\mathbb{R}^4## but none of them belongs to a simple Lie algebra. I'm not 100% sure, but I think that you don't even get all vectors as the result of such a product, i.e. some vectors cannot be retrieved as a result of the product.

I guess, no is the only answer that can be given without getting into details.
 
  • #11
notice that the cross product of two vectors in 3 space is an oriented choice of vector orthogonal to the plane they span. Thus a cross product in 4 space should be a vector orthogonal to the 3-space spanned by the arguments. hence one should form cross product in 4 space using three argument vectors. I.e. given three vectors U,V,W in 4- space, yes there is a cross product vector UxVxW.
 
  • #12
grzz said:
Another query of mine is whether there is a cross product of 4-vectors like there is with 3-vectors.

Thanks so.much.
The answer depends on what properties of the 3-dimensional cross product you want preserved in higher dimensions. For definiteness, let's suppose ##n \ge 3## and there is a "cross product" on ##\mathbb{R}^n##, which we assume to be a continuous map ##\times : \mathbb{R}^n \times \mathbb{R}^n \to \mathbb{R}^n## such that the cross product of any two independent vectors is nonzero, and ##v\times w## is always orthogonal to ##v## and ##w##. Then ##n## must be either ##3## or ##7##. Indeed, one can show that the existence of a cross product in this sense implies the existence of a continuous multiplication on the ##n##-sphere ##S^n## that makes ##S^n## into an ##H##-space. It was proven by J. F. Adams that ##S^n## is an ##H##-space if and only if ##n = 0, 1, 3##, or ##7##.
 
  • #13
fresh_42 said:
The cross product in ##\mathbb{R}^3## is a Lie product of a three-dimensional, real, ...
I am not familiar with Lie Algebra. But thanks any way.
 
  • #14
grzz said:
I am not familiar with Lie Algebra. But thanks any way.
That's easy in this case. Look at https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/journey-manifold-su2-part-ii/#61-The-Pauli-Matrices. There are three matrices
$$
U=\dfrac{1}{2}\begin{pmatrix}0&i\\i&0\end{pmatrix}\ ,\
V=\dfrac{1}{2}\begin{pmatrix}0&1\\-1&0\end{pmatrix}\ ,\
W=\dfrac{1}{2}\begin{pmatrix}-i&0\\0&i\end{pmatrix}
$$
If we define the Lie algebra multiplication as ##[X,Y]=X\cdot Y-Y\cdot X## then we get
$$\begin{equation*} [U,V]=W\, , \,[V,W]=U\, , \,[W,U]=V \end{equation*}$$
which is another way to look at the cross-product. It has the same properties.

You cannot do this in four dimensions, i.e. with four matrices without losing some properties.
 
  • #15
Id believe duals are assigned to vector spaces * , not to matrices, so one may speak of the dual of the column/row/kernel. Or maybe, considering a matrix as a linear map ##L : V \rightarrow W ##, there is the canonical map ##L^{*} : W^{*}\rightarrow V^{*}##.

* Or other Algebraic objects, though here vector spaces.
 

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