- #1
Ekue Kpodar
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If space is expanding wouldn't that violate the first law of thermodynamics
How does the universe expand with the law of thermodynamic
- Context: High School
- Thread starter Ekue Kpodar
- Start date
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Discussion Overview
The discussion revolves around the relationship between the expansion of the universe and the first law of thermodynamics, particularly focusing on the implications for energy conservation within the context of cosmology. Participants explore whether the expansion of space could violate this fundamental law and examine the complexities involved in defining the total energy of the universe.
Discussion Character
- Debate/contested
- Conceptual clarification
Main Points Raised
- Some participants question whether the expansion of space violates the first law of thermodynamics, specifically regarding energy conservation.
- One participant notes the difficulty in defining the total energy of the universe and suggests that conservation of energy may not apply to the universe as a whole.
- Another participant expresses uncertainty about their initial understanding of the topic, indicating that their perspective has evolved with further reading.
- A participant references a resource that discusses energy in the context of general relativity, suggesting it may provide additional insights.
- There is a comparison made between the expansion of the universe and a baseball flying upward, questioning why the latter does not violate the first law of thermodynamics.
Areas of Agreement / Disagreement
Participants do not reach a consensus on whether the expansion of the universe violates the first law of thermodynamics. Multiple competing views remain, with some expressing uncertainty and others providing differing interpretations of energy conservation in cosmological contexts.
Contextual Notes
Participants acknowledge the complexity of defining total energy in the universe and the potential limitations of applying classical thermodynamic principles to cosmological phenomena.
- #2
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Why do you think it would?Ekue Kpodar said:
- #3
Drakkith
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The first law of thermodynamics has to do with conservation of energy. The problem is that defining the total energy of the universe is problematic and there's no one way to go about doing so if I remember correctly. I don't have much info on this topic, but I believe the answer is that conservation of energy doesn't apply when talking about the universe as a whole. Hopefully someone here can give you better info than I can.
- #4
Drakkith
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phinds said:
I'd think so if I'd never read up on the issue before.
- #5
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Yes, but I was trying to point him to conservation of energy on his own before spilling the beans the way you didDrakkith said:
- #6
Ekue Kpodar
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Thanks 
- #7
Nugatory
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- #8
russ_watters
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I'm not so sure I would (I don't think I did the first time I heard about it). Why doesn't a baseball flying up violate the first law of thermodynamics?Drakkith said:
- #9
Drakkith
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russ_watters said:
I've seen that very question asked here on PF before.
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