How indistinguishable are photons?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the indistinguishability of photons, particularly in the context of two-photon interference experiments, such as the Hong-Ou-Mandel (HOM) effect. Participants explore the implications of photon states, entanglement, and beam splitter operations on interference outcomes, raising questions about the nature of quantum fields and the information they may contain.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes a setup involving photon pairs and asks how nature distinguishes between different interference scenarios, particularly when amplitudes are reduced.
  • Another participant asserts that the HOM effect will still be observed in a certain percentage of events, providing a mathematical framework for beam splitter operations.
  • A later reply expresses uncertainty about how the HOM effect interacts with entangled states and whether non-locality plays a role, suggesting that the remote modes of entangled photons may influence interference outcomes.
  • Participants discuss the conditions under which the HOM effect occurs, noting that it depends on the specific entangled states used and the arrangement of the experiment.
  • References to an overview article are made, indicating that the results of interference depend on the states involved and the measurements performed, particularly in the context of entanglement swapping.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that the HOM effect can still be observed under certain conditions, but there is no consensus on how entangled states affect this phenomenon or the implications of remote modes. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the specifics of these interactions.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights complexities in the mathematical treatment of photon states and interference, particularly concerning indistinguishability and entanglement. Participants acknowledge that the outcomes depend on the specific configurations and states used in experiments.

  • #31
DrChinese said:
've lost track of your various examples. But if you are talking about the AB + A'B' setup I commented on in #12: There is no difference in observable outcomes regardless of ordering of observations. That is true of all EPR entanglement setups, especially swapping setups.
No, i have reduced the structure i am querying about to the following two states in a similar 4 beam setup but a different source emitting a different initial state instead of two independent Bell pairs.

Killtech said:
  1. a 2-photon 4 beam entanglement with same polarizations:
    |ϕ⟩=|HA,HA′⟩+|HB,HB′⟩
    So this case is a mirror experimental setup with a mirror photon state - whichever path one photon chose (A or B), his mirror photon had to do the same but mirrored.
  2. a 4-photon 4 beam Bell state
    |ψ⟩=|HA,HA′,VB,VB′⟩+|VA,VA′,HB,HB′⟩
    Here the distinction is that the HOM interferences will differ when also taking into account polarization depending on the loss of coherence.
But you'll need to read a little more about the following discussion to follow the context, specifically to understand my statement about observable outcomes - since you need to know what what observables are being observed. The issue is that within the formalism the observable in question is technically non-local with the way no-signaling theorems use this word (and therefore failing to commute with observables in either part of the space), albeit it remains is a simple measurement.

The question moved on how physical such state would be since just because the formalism does allow to write them down doesn't make them necessarily realistic.
 
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  • #32
Killtech said:
1. a 4-photon 4 beam Bell state
|ψ⟩=|HA,HA′,VB,VB′⟩+|VA,VA′,HB,HB′⟩2. "...For those particular examples we see that it makes a difference whether a measurement of beam A is done before or after A'B' passes through their beam splitter and it is not mere change in correlations."
1. A 4 photon Bell state (presumably photons A A' B B') does not produce polarization as you have tried to write. There are a lot more outcomes to consider, such as |VA,HA′,HB,VB′⟩. To be clear: if these 4 are entangled together, there is no requirement that any pair subset follow perfect anti-correlations. On the other hand, if any 2 follow perfect anti-correlations, they are prohibited from being entangled to other particles due to monogamy of entanglement.

2. And again, I'll ask you to retract your statement per my challenge in #30. Or produce an appropriate reference. If you don't, I will pass this to the moderators as being personal speculation that is not generally accepted.
 
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  • #33
Killtech said:
For those particular examples we see that it makes a difference whether a measurement of beam A is done before or after A'B' passes through their beam splitter and it is not mere change in correlations.
@DrChinese has already raised a valid challenge for this claim of yours:

DrChinese said:
I'll ask you to retract your statement per my challenge in #30. Or produce an appropriate reference. If you don't, I will pass this to the moderators as being personal speculation that is not generally accepted.
The moderators have already seen it. :wink:

@Killtech, I am closing this thread. If you are unable to supply a reference to back up your claim quoted above, the thread will remain closed. If you do have a reference, please PM me a link and the moderators will review it.
 
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