How Is the Schrödinger Equation Derived from the Hamilton-Jacobi Equation?

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of the Schrödinger equation from the Hamilton-Jacobi equation within the context of quantum mechanics. Participants are exploring the relationship between wave functions and classical action, specifically focusing on the expression of the wave function in terms of the action and its implications for deriving evolution equations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Mathematical reasoning

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants discuss expressing the wave function in terms of the action and substituting it back into the Hamilton-Jacobi equation. There is an exploration of how to identify leading terms when comparing derived equations to the Schrödinger equation. Questions arise regarding the nature of nonlinear variants of the Schrödinger equation and the significance of certain terms in the derivation process.

Discussion Status

The discussion is ongoing, with participants sharing different approaches to the derivation and questioning the assumptions made in the process. Some guidance has been offered on how to compute derivatives and compare terms, but there is no explicit consensus on the best method or understanding of the nonlinear Schrödinger equation.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the challenge of working with small values of ##\hbar## compared to classical action and the implications this has for the derivation process. There is also mention of external resources, such as Wikipedia, which may provide additional context or confusion regarding the equations discussed.

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Homework Statement


I am reading Mathematical Concepts of Quantum Mechanics (Stephen J. Gustafson, Israel Michael Sigal. Second edition). The book would like to find an evolution equation which would lead to the Hamilton-Jacobi equation
$$\frac{\partial S}{\partial t}=-h(x, \nabla S) $$
in the way the wave equation led to the eikonal one. The book also says that ##\phi (x, t) = a(x, t) \exp( i S(x,t)/\hbar)##. So I express ##S(x,t)## using ##\phi (x,t)## and substitute back to the Hamilton-Jacobi equation, taking ##h (x, \nabla S) = \frac{1}{2m}|\nabla S|^2+V(x)##.

The book means to take the leading terms when ##\hbar## small compared to a typical classical action ##S## and restore Schrödinger equation. I am kind of lost during the derivation.

Homework Equations


After the substitution, I have
$$i\hbar\partial_t \phi=-\frac{\hbar^2}{2m}[(\frac{\nabla \phi}{\phi}-\frac{\nabla a}{a})^2-\frac{2im\partial_t a}{a\hbar}]\phi+V(x)\phi.$$
Comparing with Schrödinger equation, I figure that the leading term of
$$[(\frac{\nabla \phi}{\phi}-\frac{\nabla a}{a})^2-\frac{2im\partial_t a}{a\hbar}]\phi$$
should equal to ##\Delta_x \phi##, but don't know how.

The Attempt at a Solution


I am not sure what to search for the problem, but wiki have something on this. A nonlinear variant of the Schrödinger equation is expressed as
$$i\hbar\partial_t \phi=-\frac{\hbar^2}{2m}\frac{(\nabla \phi)^2}{\phi}+V(x)\phi.$$
I am not sure what a nonlinear Schrödinger equation is after realizing it's not the same thing as the Schrödinger equation.

The book's goal seems to be the linear Schrödinger equation. Even though I do see how to obtain the nonlinear Schrödinger equation, I am not sure why ##(\frac{\nabla \phi}{\phi})^2## is a leading term. Could someone help me with this?

Thanks!
 
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You can derive it in the following way:

  1. Let \phi = a e^{\frac{iS}{\hbar}}
  2. Compute \frac{-\hbar^2}{2m} \nabla^2 \phi in terms of a and S and only keep the lowest-order terms, in powers of \hbar
  3. Similarly, compute i \hbar \frac{d}{dt} \phi in terms of a and S and keep the lowest-order terms in powers of \hbar.
  4. Now, use the fact that \frac{(\nabla S)^2}{2m} + V = -\frac{d}{dt} S to show that the results of 2 and 3 are equal (to lowest order in \hbar)
 
stevendaryl said:
You can derive it in the following way:

  1. Let \phi = a e^{\frac{iS}{\hbar}}
  2. Compute \frac{-\hbar^2}{2m} \nabla^2 \phi in terms of a and S and only keep the lowest-order terms, in powers of \hbar
  3. Similarly, compute i \hbar \frac{d}{dt} \phi in terms of a and S and keep the lowest-order terms in powers of \hbar.
  4. Now, use the fact that \frac{(\nabla S)^2}{2m} + V = -\frac{d}{dt} S to show that the results of 2 and 3 are equal (to lowest order in \hbar)
Thanks! It was my first attempt, which never really got carried out. I thought ##\nabla^2\phi## can bring in ##1/\hbar^2## and ##\partial_t \phi## only ##1/\hbar##... And I just go through it and all is fine.
And now I kind of want to ask what's the story about the wiki and the equation
$$
i\hbar\partial_t \phi=-\frac{\hbar^2}{2m}\frac{(\nabla \phi)^2}{\phi}+V(x)\phi.$$
 
Well, if you let \phi = a e^{\frac{i}{\hbar} S}, then

\phi^* (-\frac{\hbar^2}{2m} \nabla^2 \phi) = -\frac{\hbar^2}{2m} a \nabla^2 a + \frac{\hbar^2}{2m} (\nabla a)^2 - \frac{i \hbar}{2m} (\nabla^2 S) a^2 + \frac{1}{2m} (\nabla S)^2 a^2

\frac{\hbar^2}{2m} |\nabla \phi|^2 = \frac{\hbar^2}{2m} (\nabla a)^2 + \frac{1}{2m} (\nabla S)^2 a^2

So the difference between them is -\frac{\hbar^2}{2m} a \nabla^2 a - \frac{i \hbar}{2m} (\nabla^2 S) a^2.
 

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