How Long Can You Go Without Sleep?

[lisab]

i just thought of something else that can be as exhausting as physical labor sometimes: being around people.

I think that's only true for those of us who are introverts.

 

[nismaratwork]

I swear to god that this isn't another joke at your expense lisab... I just thought...Wolram, you live in Canada, right? Well... if you don't have a psychiatric condition other than insomnia, and no other risk factors (none of my business of course), then something like Marinol or another eaten form of cannabis could be useful. Certainly it's no more dangerous under supervision than what you're taking already!

note: If you have an anxiety disorder, psychotic disorder, history of substance abuse (seems unlikely given that you're being given what you are), or any other reason your doctor believes is relevant don't just "take some". I'm advocating only medically supervised use of legal analogues or extracts if it applies in your country, and your doctor believes that it could be useful.

Worst case scenario: You like it LESS than the stereo-i of Lunesta and just stop immediately.

 

[wolram]

Wolram, I suffer from extremely severe chronic loss of sleep (years). I'll pm you tomorrow. I've been hanging by a string. It's devastating. Hopefully yours is short term.

I find i can hardly funcion, i will look forwards to your pm

 

[nismaratwork]

I find i can hardly funcion, i will look forwards to your pm

re bold: That's an important statement: have you said exactly that to your psychiatrist? At this point, unless there is a stunning reason not to, I find it hard to see why s/he wouldn't turn to benzodiazapine or barbiturate therapy to treat this acute state. You obviously shouldn't be driving, but statistically you're at a higher risk of accidental injury and death as well: this needs to be addressed with more than EU-Lunesta, or at least a different approach.

 

[wolram]

Actually... there is some indication that social interaction to the point of mental exhaustion is helpful along with physical exhuastion.


The problem is that both tend to be good at INDUCING sleep, not MAINTAINING sleep.

I think that's why your Dr is giving you an XR hypnotic... to KEEP you asleep, but it doesn't sound as though either is working. If you'd like, I have a friend at Columbia med who's an endocrinologist (I may have mentioned elsewhere re: leg spasms... not sure), former paramedic, and now specializes in the medical end of sleep disorders. He may know of a compound or regimen which has shown some promise in cases such as yours.

Evo: I'd ask the same for you, but from what you'd said in the past it sounds like you're all over things already, and frankly... I'd be telling you what you already know. If I'm making a bad assumption there, let me know.

In the meantime, just in case this is more of a war than a battle, now while you're still in good shape, it might be good to find some kind of meditation (secular, religious, medical... whatever)... it can help pass time without consuming what you want to read, watch, type, etc.

Thanks that would be more than welcome.

 

[wolram]

re bold: That's an important statement: have you said exactly that to your psychiatrist? At this point, unless there is a stunning reason not to, I find it hard to see why s/he wouldn't turn to benzodiazapine or barbiturate therapy to treat this acute state. You obviously shouldn't be driving, but statistically you're at a higher risk of accidental injury and death as well: this needs to be addressed with more than EU-Lunesta, or at least a different approach.

I have not been allowed to drive since aug 08 and i lost my job, this was because i had black outs, the docs still don't know what causes them, it was later on that i developed severe depression.

 

[nismaratwork]

I have not been allowed to drive since aug 08 and i lost my job, this was because i had black outs, the docs still don't know what causes them, it was later on that i developed severe depression.

Really? That sounds a lot like Complex Partial Seizures...

Have you had a full workup by a neurologist, with EEG?

Of course, not sleeping, blacking out and losing your job would make anyone depressed, so it could be nothing, but it's something to consider. You could do a very cheap "test" with you psychiatrist (again, you need to run all of this over with him'her):

Gabapentin is a highly effective anticonvulsant, but it's extremely benign in terms of being a drug of abuse, or physically addictive. You might find it called, "Neurontin", or a number of other names, and it's often listed for it's off-label uses now (some of which have been discredited), but its primary use is an anti-epileptic.

It may be that a 600 mg dose is sufficient to show improvement if there's some occult seizure activity.

Edit: Oh, and the main side-effect: drowsiness...

 

[wolram]

Hi nismaratwork, i have had every test you think of, i spent a year going to hospital about once a month for different tests, including being wired up for a week long heart test and the same for brain, the latest drugs i am on is sodium valproate.

 

[nismaratwork]

Hi nismaratwork, i have had every test you think of, i spent a year going to hospital about once a month for different tests, including being wired up for a week long heart test and the same for brain, the latest drugs i am on is sodium valproate.

Well crap... it would have been nice (unlikely, but nice) if that had been so easy.

 

[pallidin]

Jeeze, that's hard one.
All I know(and I'm no doc) is that chronic lack of sleep can be very harmful, as certain critical cells in our body, such as in the heart, can not properly repair themselves without the function of deep sleep.

Wishing the best for you and, especially, hooking-up with the right doc.

 

[nismaratwork]

@Wolram: Do you mind telling me, here or on PM, if the Valproic acid eased the blackouts? I'm getting a picture of your underlying condition, and the choice of depakote + (nearly) Lunesta seems... odd.

I still think that an assay with Gabapentin might help to isolate seizure activity ONLY... it's been discredited as a mood stabilizer. Frankly, you COULD be suffering from adverse effects of the Valproic acid... it can be very rough.

If I had the choice, I'd wean you off your current regimen, add a mood stabilizer if needed, and use gabapantin and therapy aimed at inducing and maintaining sleep.

The more you describe your situation, the more it seems that it will not be a single fix to a single issue. I'd just say, and I know I keep repeating it (Sorry), but keep your doctor in the loop at all times with this exhaustion. Palladin is right, and with depakote and SI-Lunesta... ehhh... I'd be a little concerned about sleep deprivation leading to a long Q-T cardiac interval.

 

[wolram]

the Valproic acid and zopiclone seemed to work for the first three month, (no black outs)
but now i might just as well be taking smarties.

 

[Evo]

the Valproic acid and zopiclone seemed to work for the first three month, (no black outs)
but now i might just as well be taking smarties.

I love smarties.

I'm worried about you Wooly Ram. When we get married, I'll come take care of you.

 

[nismaratwork]

the Valproic acid and zopiclone seemed to work for the first three month, (no black outs)
but now i might just as well be taking smarties.

OK, that's not shocking given what you're taking. Zopiclone = rapid tolerance (within 3 weeks), and there's that rebound insomnia that can cause feedback to rapidly increase dosage.

Valproic Acid on the other hand... that's pretty steady as a mood-stabilizer, but people sometimes need more in the way of anti-seizure medication that is a little different.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3136402

I'd question the use of Valproic Acid purely as an anti-seizure medication, and look to something less dangerous and more effective in that particular area: GABA-ergic medications such as Neurontin (Gabapentin), or an assay with barbiturates/benzodiazapines in-hospital (in case of paradoxical reaction, respiratory depression).

Remember, if your medication is no better to you than candy right now, your doctor needs to hear that. You have no idea how much feedback is the key to treatment... it's a major reason that veterinarians need to be such excellent diagnosticians. I know, tired as you are, and with whatever is the underlying cause of this issue... that it must be hard to do ANYTHING... is there someone in your life (friends, family, sweetie) who can act as an advocate for you?

 

[nismaratwork]

I love smarties.

I'm worried about you Wooly Ram. When we get married, I'll come take care of you.

Pot. Kettle. BLACK.

You two are some of the most medically worrisome, "healthy" people I've met online! Good lord... it would be like putting two drug addicts together to 'get well'.

On the other hand, you'd both never be bored, or you'd kill each other. One or the other.

I'm really not used to being so stumped... usually it's all horses, but of course, you'd be zebras. PF... it's unique!

 

[physics girl phd]

I suffer from extremely severe chronic loss of sleep (years). I'll pm you tomorrow. I've been hanging by a string. It's devastating. Hopefully yours is short term.

I was wondering why you were up and on PF at something like 3AM your time (I'm up because I'm congested and slurping on couch drops to loosen the "uck").

Although it sounds weird: Have either of you ever tried acupuncture for this? I had a friend who had weeks of insomnia, then went to acupuncture therapy... and slept for two entire days after she got home (although if it works that good, YOU may want to have someone drive you). I don't think it was that expensive (she was a grad student at the time... although she did have a pretty wealthy boyfriend).

 

[lisab]

Pot. Kettle. BLACK.

You two are some of the most medically worrisome, "healthy" people I've met online! Good lord... it would be like putting two drug addicts together to 'get well'.

On the other hand, you'd both never be bored, or you'd kill each other. One or the other.

They are, we worry about them both !

If Wooly and Evo ever meet, it will either be like heaven's angels singing and bringing about world peace, or a matter/antimatter annihilation!

 

[Borek]

Sigh. Wolly, my sympathy is with you.

 

[nismaratwork]

They are, we worry about them both !

If Wooly and Evo ever meet, it will either be like heaven's angels singing and bringing about world peace, or a matter/antimatter annihilation!

EXACTLY!... man, that "green" really gives you a way with words.

 

[wolram]

@Wolram: Do you mind telling me, here or on PM, if the Valproic acid eased the blackouts? I'm getting a picture of your underlying condition, and the choice of depakote + (nearly) Lunesta seems... odd.

I still think that an assay with Gabapentin might help to isolate seizure activity ONLY... it's been discredited as a mood stabilizer. Frankly, you COULD be suffering from adverse effects of the Valproic acid... it can be very rough.

If I had the choice, I'd wean you off your current regimen, add a mood stabilizer if needed, and use gabapantin and therapy aimed at inducing and maintaining sleep.

The more you describe your situation, the more it seems that it will not be a single fix to a single issue. I'd just say, and I know I keep repeating it (Sorry), but keep your doctor in the loop at all times with this exhaustion. Palladin is right, and with depakote and SI-Lunesta... ehhh... I'd be a little concerned about sleep deprivation leading to a long Q-T cardiac interval.

It seemed to work for the first couple of months, my meds don't seem to do any thing now,
The black outs can be any thing from twice a week to once a month.

Thanks for your help nismaratwork.

 

[wolram]

I love smarties.

I'm worried about you Wooly Ram. When we get married, I'll come take care of you.

I will go to bed tonight thinking of our union, such a wonderful thought i may even sleep.

 

[nismaratwork]

Well... exercise and endorphins do make for good sleep... *shrug*. Hook up... hook up...

 

[ahitztafloor]

I don't sleep for days at a time. I can process with only a few hrs of sleep.

 

[Evo]

I don't sleep for days at a time. I can process with only a few hrs of sleep.

Count yourself lucky for now, I could go without sleep a couple of days with no affects when I was in my teens. But years of chronic sleep deprivation is killing me now.

 

[FtlIsAwesome]

On the other hand, you'd both never be bored, or you'd kill each other. One or the other.

The second option would be interesting to see.

If Wooly and Evo ever meet, it will either be like heaven's angels singing and bringing about world peace, or a matter/antimatter annihilation!

The latter.

I once read a fiction book. It briefly mentioned some crazy people living on the Moon would try to get their wake/sleep patterns to match the Moon's rotation period.