How to approximate the rate of growth of an integer sequence?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around approximating the rate of growth of an integer sequence without knowing the generating formula. Participants explore different mathematical approaches, including the relationship between discrete changes in the sequence and derivatives, and the applicability of these methods to various types of sequences.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how to identify the type of formula (exponential, linear, polynomial) that generates a sequence when the formula is unknown.
  • Another participant suggests that the change in the sequence can be approximated by the derivative, specifically f'(x) ~ f(x+1) - f(x) as x approaches infinity.
  • Some participants express uncertainty about the validity of this derivative approximation, particularly in the context of sequences and as x approaches infinity.
  • One participant notes that this approach seems to work for polynomial expressions but may fail for certain functions, such as f(n) = cos(nπ) or f(x) = x^x.
  • Another participant reflects on the challenges of dealing with piecewise functions, which sequences represent, and suggests that the ability to generate more terms might improve the approximation.
  • A participant proposes checking the approximation by comparing the differences in powers of 4 with the derivative of the function at specific points.
  • There is a discussion about the usefulness of the derivative approximation at values of x less than infinity, with some participants expressing skepticism about its practical application.
  • One participant emphasizes that they are not seeking an exact function but rather an approximate rate of growth that is asymptotic as x approaches infinity.
  • Another participant agrees that the approximation seems to approach the derivative as x gets very large.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a mix of agreement and disagreement regarding the validity of using the derivative approximation for sequences. While some believe it holds for certain cases, others highlight its limitations and the variability depending on the type of sequence.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the approximation may not be reliable for all types of sequences, particularly those that are piecewise or exhibit non-standard behavior. The discussion includes various assumptions about the behavior of sequences as they grow large.

japplepie
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Assume that I have absolutely no clue to what is the formula used to generate a sequence.

How do I know what kind of formula that is? (Exponential / Linear / Polynomial / etc)

Also assume that there is only 1 formula that generates the sequence.

I have read somewhere before that:

f'(x) ~ f(x+1)-f(x) as x -> infinity; is this true?
 
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change in y over change in x (which is 1, because it takes integer arguments) is the slope, sooo...
 
Actually, I neglected that as x goes to infinity part. I'm not so sure about that. Seems sketchy. That will give you the approximate derivative at some value x.
 
BiGyElLoWhAt said:
Actually, I neglected that as x goes to infinity part. I'm not so sure about that. Seems sketchy. That will give you the approximate derivative at some value x.
does this approximate derivative approach the actual derivative (as x grows to inf) ?
 
Hmm... I'm trying to think about it, and analytically, it seems to work, at least for polynomial expressions.
 
But, if you had a sequence f such that ##f:=cos(n\pi)## this would not work for retrieving the derivative of a continuous function.
 
I just checked in wolfram, it also does not work for f(x)=x^x :c
 
Yea, I don't know enough about derivatives of piecewise functions, because that's what a sequence is, to be able to solve something so generally. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
 
BiGyElLoWhAt said:
Yea, I don't know enough about derivatives of piecewise functions, because that's what a sequence is, to be able to solve something so generally. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
But could the fact that I can create an infinitely more terms make it more precise?

Btw, this is the one of the sequences that I'm currently working on.. Just by inspecting it, I could tell that its close to 4^x

1
30
185
886
3855
16064
65569
264930
1065059
4270948
17105253
68463974
273941863
1095939432
4384101737
17537095018
 
  • #10
I guess you could check that by doing 4^11-4^10 and checking it with d(4^x)/dx at x=10 then doing the same with 4^12-4^11 and checking it with d(4^x)/dx at x=11
 
  • #11
The thing of it is, even if it did converge to at infinity, that definition would presumably be less than useful at values of x less than infinity. I'm not trying to contradict what you guys are doing in class, I'm just throwing out my honest opinion. Perhaps this is a good point for someone else to chime in here.
 
  • #12
BiGyElLoWhAt said:
The thing of it is, even if it did converge to at infinity, that definition would presumably be less than useful at values of x less than infinity. I'm not trying to contradict what you guys are doing in class, I'm just throwing out my honest opinion. Perhaps this is a good point for someone else to chime in here.[/QUOTE}
It's ok, I'm not looking for the 100% precise function that makes these sequences, I just want to have an approximate rate of growth and it is asymptotic to this approximation as x -> infnity.
 
  • #13
True, it does seem to approach f'(x) as x approaches infinity, for x's close to infinity.
 

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