How to Calculate Torque from Desired Acceleration in a Powertrain Model?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around calculating torque in a vehicle powertrain model based on desired acceleration and various forces acting on the vehicle. Participants explore the relationships between tractive force, torque, and dynamic factors affecting performance, including air resistance and rolling resistance.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks to understand the equations necessary to calculate torque to the wheels from desired acceleration and tractive forces.
  • Another participant provides the basic relationship for torque as Torque = Force * radius, emphasizing the units involved.
  • A participant elaborates on the tractive force equation, including components such as air resistance, drag, and acceleration, questioning the dynamic nature of the model.
  • Concerns are raised about the variability of drag forces due to environmental factors and terrain, suggesting that these factors complicate the calculations.
  • Clarification is made that the discussion pertains to automobile powertrains, not trains, and the participant specifies the components of air resistance and rolling resistance in their calculations.
  • Some participants discuss the need for dynamic modeling, suggesting that numerical methods may be necessary for accurate simulations over time.
  • Questions are posed about the meaning of "driveline dynamics" and the importance of including it in the model, with suggestions for using small time steps in numerical calculations to improve accuracy.
  • A participant mentions using a mass factor to account for rotational inertia, referencing the 'equivalent mass' theory as part of their modeling approach.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints on how to approach the calculation of torque and the factors that should be considered. There is no consensus on the best method or the importance of certain dynamic factors, indicating ongoing debate and exploration of the topic.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty regarding the completeness of the model, particularly in relation to environmental factors and the dynamics of the driveline. The discussion highlights the need for additional data and assumptions that may affect the calculations.

Vivek Vijay
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Hello,

I would like to know the basic eqns in a simple Powertrain model. Where i have the Desired accelaration and the other quantities to calculate the tractive force.

But i need to calculate the torque to the wheels. can anyone help me ?
 
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Have a look at the units:

[ Nm ] = [ N ] * [ m ]

Torque = Force * radius
 
Hesch said:
Have a look at the units:

[ Nm ] = [ N ] * [ m ]

Torque = Force * radius

Yeah, perhaps my question was too short.

I want to calculate the drive torque to the wheels, taking into consideration of the tractive forces.

Torque [wheels] = F tractive * dynamic wheel radius

F tractive = F air + D drag + F accel

But will this be dynamic enough ?
 
Vivek Vijay said:
F tractive = F air + D drag + F accel
How will you calculate Fair? Read the weather forecast, wind direction, will it rain? Will you calculate the cw-value for each wagon with its load?

Drag is not constant. It goes uphill/downhill.

Vivek Vijay said:
But will this be dynamic enough ?
You are the one to know.

If an exact time of arrival is important, I would install a speed/acceleration control in the train, increasing the turbo pressure if needed.
 
Nice pun ! But you are mistaken - I am not looking to calculate for a power TRAIN, but i am talking about vehicle powertrain (automobile)...

Sorry for the typo...
But what i meant is air resistance (drag). Let me rephrase it..
F tractive = F air resistance + F rolling resistance + F accelaration
=0.5*(air density*drag co-eff*cross sec area*(velocity)^2) + m*g*coeff-roll resistace + (m*desired accel)

In this case i take air density constant - 1.2 kg/m3
Cross sec area - i have example data for the vehicle
 
Vivek Vijay said:
But will this be dynamic enough ?

What do you mean by dynamic?

If you want to calculate Force/Power at a given instant in time your equation is ok.
If you wish to plot Force/power over a given time period for a constant acceleration value, you need to either use 'dt' or do the calculation numerically (iteration per iteration).
 
strive said:
If you want to calculate Force/Power at a given instant in time your equation is ok.
If you wish to plot Force/power over a given time period for a constant acceleration value, you need to either use 'dt' or do the calculation numerically (iteration per iteration).
Yes , i am doing a simulation of my mathematical model therefore numerical calculation by iteration is dynamic .

My question of dynamics was that, i try to make a simple physical equation of powertrain using the formula i mentioned above. When i do that, without considering driveline dynamic is that a right approach.

Or is my question too vague to comprehend ? please let me know
 
Well, i am missing some data in your explanation, but if you don't like sharing the details, that's allright. We'll find a way around it.

What do you mean with 'driveline dynamic'?

If you are worried about using your non-dt formula, don't worry, just use a sufficiently small timestep in your iteration. 0.1s should do, but if you are using a computer to churn out the results you might as well go with 0.01s. Difference will be minimal though.

What order of accuracy are you looking for?
 
I use a mass factor to model the rotational inertia like shown here (I think that is what you are talking about). Learn more about the 'equivalent mass' theory.
 

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