How to destroy a Planet, or 100% of the life forms on it

  • #26
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The chance that the virus will penetrate even a simple shelter - is close to zero.

That's irrelevant if everybody is already infected.
 
  • #27
"Easily destroyed?" If we set off every single explosive device (nuclear and conventional) on the planet simultaneously, we'd barely even scratch it. We'd wipe ourselves out, sure, but the planet would be perfectly fine and in a couple million years or so will basically be what it was before we came along several thousand years ago.
Oh .I think you don't know the famous equation E= mc^ 2.
 
  • #28
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There are documentaries about meteor impacts and so on, you can sit and watch some of them. Once people are closed and confined within shelters (because the outside world will be inaccessible to them), then you can certainly speak about the end of civilization. Also the size of the meteor matters; a pretty massive meteor cannot be avoided by hiding underneath the ground (which probably will molt). You don't even have to go so far, you just need enough to destroy the people on the planet.
Also for the plot of the population growth, the time span of it is too short... how many humans were on earth ~3billion years ago?
Nope, the creators of this documentaries had no any access to the secret military shelters, so they have no idea what is there, we can only imagine.
The more large meteor, the more early it will be spotted, and it's trajectory will be approximated. And then most powerful government such as US, SU, and CPR will decide what they will do next.
Again accounting for a risk doesn't mean you can do anything to avoid it.
for frostysh, for an example is impossible to avoid disasters of such kind, because frostysh is a poor rural fellah, he have only a dirty wet basement (that older than a 100 years...) where even a vegetables that must be fine there, getting rot over the Winter :/.
But for US government, the counting risk is almost the half of problem solved, coz' they have unimaginable amount of different resources (I mean Scientific potential, materials, experience, etc)
No, it's not the same. Studies can of course be done, but they are too far away from being operated. We we reached the moon about 500years after having the models to do so. And especially modeling self-sustainable extraterrestrial life, is even more difficult (leave aside trying to do it).
And first Nuclear Bomb has been made and used after ~30 years from development of the Theory stuff, of course the researches of such kind was not public. If you have a smarty guys, and resources you can create anything. The Mars program is not an exception.
Some things in life are unavoidable. Someday everyone will die, there is a risk you can count for it and take measures to delay it, but the fact that we all die still holds. So I think your character didn't live long enough to see those many things in his life.
Well, if we gonna imagine the situation an Social-Psychological aspects of situation where the IC population such as mankind will be aware about the catastrophe, I mean in public. We can easily predict a total chaos, panic, etc.
well, if gonna take frostysh as particular example, he was few times on the 'edge' (and probably many times, but frostysh just pay no attention to that..), of course it is a bad feelings. It's hard to explain. Yep, frostysh not saw a many thing in his life, perhaps even some thing that humans accepting as a 'normal' stuff ;), but there is only a two or one thing (from frostysh child age) that frostysh regrets (he was always on the way of justice and allgoodness etc - some kind of principles/strong_ideology/rules, it's hard to explain), so in case of frostysh perhaps will be panic, perhaps will not, but definitely frostysh will be the same inside as the all this time before, and frostysh is actually a 'tiny sparkle' in that endless ocean of unspeakable horror nightmare etc, so one sparkle more, one less, what is the matter :) (sorry, frostysh have a super dark humor, from his child age...)
something like/near means almost similar. If the defenders' technology is something near to humanity's current knowledge and technological advancement, there is nothing you can do against a meteor attack...
I am cannot :), but the powerful government can.

1) They can try to destroy the meteor, to change it's trajectory.

2) The will send a mission to the space, or another planet such as Mars.

3) Even the entire crust of the Earth will be melted, we have probability that some 'secret' base under Polar Ice, or Idkn, a special-equipped submarine will survive. I think the melting will be most low in the opposite side of Earth to where the meteor will hits, so there will be the secret bases of something like that.

4) Another variants. I mean they have a lot bucket of the very smarty Scientific guys, so they can create some counter-measures.
Any planet can be easily destroyed by a nuclear arsenal, chance is high.
I am agree with user XZ923 - the Nuclear Toys is a very poor and archaic weapon in this case, and it is obviously will take an enormous amount of such weapon to inflict at least minimal sustain damage to the Planet of size of Earth.
Use the moon. Put a rocket on the other side of the moon and push it into the planet.
It's looks ridiculous and totally ineffective, imho.
That's irrelevant if everybody is already infected.
And how you may infect for a short time the any single person of IC on the Planet? I mean, how you can infect the crew of Submarines, the personal of secret closed bunkers, the astronauts/cosmonauts on the orbit, and the any other isolated from the world outside guys, and the more IC creature are infected, the more probability that the particular Virus will be exposed, and the will be "Alarm" and the total fail of the any Biological related attacks.
 
  • #29
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Oh .I think you don't know the famous equation E= mc^ 2.

I'm quite familiar with it. I suggest you do a little research regarding energy released from man-made nuclear reactions relative to the mass of the earth before suggesting our nuclear arsenal could release anywhere near enough energy to destroy the actual planet. It is at least conceivably possible that if we were to devote enough global industry towards this goal and improve the yield of our weapons we might in the distant very future get to the point where we could physically blow the earth apart with nuclear reactions but to suggest that we can do it with what we have now is crazy. Of course, it would be far enough in the future we probably would have come up with much better ways to do it by that time so it's a moot point. We'll improve our ability to create antimatter to the point where we can make a large enough energy release that way long before we manufacture enough nuclear weapons to do it.
 
  • #30
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And how you may infect for a short time the any single person of IC on the Planet?

It is sufficient to do it within the incubation period. Natural resistances could be a problem. But that can be solved by simultaneous release of different pathogens.

I mean, how you can infect the crew of Submarines, the personal of secret closed bunkers, the astronauts/cosmonauts on the orbit, and the any other isolated from the world outside guys

Just wait. They do not spend years in total isolation.

and the more IC creature are infected, the more probability that the particular Virus will be exposed, and the will be "Alarm" and the total fail of the any Biological related attacks.

If the weapons are designed on the basis of common and usually harmless viruses or bacterias there will be no alarm. Even if somebody detects them in time nobody would care about some new variants which seem to cause no symptoms.
 
  • #31
ChrisVer
Gold Member
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Nope, the creators of this documentaries had no any access to the secret military shelters, so they have no idea what is there, we can only imagine.
The more large meteor, the more early it will be spotted, and it's trajectory will be approximated. And then most powerful government such as US, SU, and CPR will decide what they will do next.
this sounds too exagerated for me to follow. I am naturally repulsed by conspiracy theories. The facts about what will happen to earth are irrelevant to what type of shelters you have.
That's why I said, hack their systems so they won't be able to detect it.

But for US government, the counting risk is almost the half of problem solved, coz' they have unimaginable amount of different resources (I mean Scientific potential, materials, experience, etc)
Still not enough. You have to understand that we are way better than we were 20 years ago, but we are nowhere near to achieving extremes. It's like those people imagining in the 60s that in the 2000s we would have robots as our slaves and things like that... 2000 came and we had mobile telephones as big as a boot.

And first Nuclear Bomb has been made and used after ~30 years from development of the Theory stuff, of course the researches of such kind was not public. If you have a smarty guys, and resources you can create anything. The Mars program is not an exception.
Nukes are not difficult to do. Moving to another planet certainly is. It's like telling a kid "ok since you were able to walk in 2 years, in your 20s you'll be able to fly".

I am cannot :), but the powerful government can.

1) They can try to destroy the meteor, to change it's trajectory.
I wonder whether you read my messages or not...
you overestimate the government powers...
human technology cannot change the trajectory of a meteor...

3) Even the entire crust of the Earth will be melted, we have probability that some 'secret' base under Polar Ice, or Idkn, a special-equipped submarine will survive. I think the melting will be most low in the opposite side of Earth to where the meteor will hits, so there will be the secret bases of something like that.
that's why I said, watch some documentaries on the topic (available on youtube).

4) Another variants. I mean they have a lot bucket of the very smarty Scientific guys, so they can create some counter-measures.
and now you overestimate the minds of the scientists. Scientists are still humans, not perfect machines with supernatural powers (what you would need to survive such a scenario).
 
  • #32
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It is sufficient to do it within the incubation period. Natural resistances could be a problem. But that can be solved by simultaneous release of different pathogens.
Just wait. They do not spend years in total isolation.
If the weapons are designed on the basis of common and usually harmless viruses or bacterias there will be no alarm. Even if somebody detects them in time nobody would care about some new variants which seem to cause no symptoms.
In short - I think it is almost totally ineffective.

1) Years, it is too much of time.

2) The more pathogens, the more peoples infected, the more time spent - the more probability that Virus will be detected. There is a lot of places on the Earth (for an example) where regular medical tests applied (military, research center, hospitals, special zones, etc), there is even a special public organization that continuously monitoring new pathogens and stuff, etc. I think the probability will growth exponentially depends on the above mentioned factors.

3) Can you give 100% guarantee that there is no fully isolated personal of IC on the planet exist? I don't think so.

4) Any Biological agent (the any known biological agent, I am not counting Sci-Fi like stuff with nano-technologies, etc, but imho nano-cyborgs that can carry pathogens is looks fearsome) can be easily countered by even a simple Chemical Suite.

5) The Nature can take effect on the pathogens, pathogens can evolve in unpredictable manner (there is no zero probability for that), it is icreasing the chances for detection. In addition, the above mentioned natural resistance can play it's role, and from a 1 billion of exterminated IC will be just 1 survivor with immunity, and the end. In addition the incubation period can take different time in different peoples, for an example in larva of IC population, and in old IC population it can take shorter time, it's drasitcally increasing the chance of detection.

6) After the detection, governments of IC just and another lot amount of peoples will be immediately isolated, and the end of story.

Imho in this case the combination of nano-Robotic Technology, Genetics, and Virology, etc is need to create really fearsome weapon that will be hard to detected, for an example:
Nano robots equipped with a stealth technologies, that will self-copy spread with defined density per square km on the planet surface (density function depends on the structure of the IC population, and it will count such factors as secret military bases, shelters etc), such nano-system will be designed to penetrate isolated areas, after some values reached, this nano-systems will simultaneously release a deadly pathogen that takes affect only on the IC population.
this sounds too exagerated for me to follow. I am naturally repulsed by conspiracy theories. The facts about what will happen to earth are irrelevant to what type of shelters you have.
That's why I said, hack their systems so they won't be able to detect it.
Not post in the "New York Times" about secret underground shelter in the case of full scale Nuclear Conflict with Soviet Union it is not a conspiracy theory, it is a military reality. During the Cold War both, US and SU had preparation to that events, that have for an example: vehicles that designed to survive in full-scale nuclear conflict (fsnc), the prepared aircraft that can survive in the fsnc, they have even some civilian programs in this case - such as the any Metropolitan in the large cities is designed for such purposes, etc. So why they cannot have a secret full equipped military shelters for the special personal?
Hacking such large amount of stuff by single small fleet is too dangerous, there is a large possibility of detection - imho this is just impossible.
In addition small fleet cannot drug a large space bodies, such as meteor of size of United States.
In case more smaller impact, the peoples such as frostysh will be destroyed of course, but the guys that had preparing for a fsnc for a decades will be not. And the melting will be not homogenize on the crust of the Planet.
We have a large probability that some regions will be ~safe.
Still not enough. You have to understand that we are way better than we were 20 years ago, but we are nowhere near to achieving extremes. It's like those people imagining in the 60s that in the 2000s we would have robots as our slaves and things like that... 2000 came and we had mobile telephones as big as a boot.
If the revolution technology is developed, it is not means that it will be spread very fast. A very good example - a Nuclear Energy, a Nuclear Weapon, only the most powerful government system with the most advanced Scientific potential will have access to such kind of Technologies. In this case, on Earth, for an example, US and SU and CPR is superior, the have the most powerful strategy developed during evolution - "if you want, and can help to us, you are welcomed to become our citizen!", to underestimate such potential is a horrific mistake. In case of global danger, this potential will be released and united they can do a miracles, but to unite them you need to place the entire Earth on the edge of destruction, because in the any other case, they will continue to kill each others like a crazy :D, and squashing, using like puppet dolls anything that is weaker than them, as for my humble opinion. (I am again have sorry for my dark humor and satire, this is a habits, a part of frostysh speech style, that have caused a lot of troubles to frostysh :/ )

About robotic assistance, well perhaps wee need to wait for some time and perhaps in 2030, 2040 etc, some black dude like a Del Spooner (from "I, robot") will stand on the Bridge and declare a new era in the human-machine interaction history! :P Actually frostysh have a dream to create Artificial Intelligence, like a mr Miles Bennet Dyson from "Terminator 2: Judgement Day", but I mean without judgement day and anything of such kind ^^. But for now anything that frostysh have done - it's planted some trees on his yard :/.
Nukes are not difficult to do. Moving to another planet certainly is. It's like telling a kid "ok since you were able to walk in 2 years, in your 20s you'll be able to fly".
Same as moving a large asteroid undetectable to the target planet for a small fleet. And there is no need to move a planet, as I have said - the most powerful government can create another solution - like Mars program, etc. United they can easily do that, imho. I mean they have a lot bucket of smarty guys, so they can find the solution.
I wonder whether you read my messages or not...
you overestimate the government powers...
human technology cannot change the trajectory of a meteor...
I have read.
To overestimate a power of something the survived during the most horrible and bloody war in the History of mankind (Cold War), that have developed and constructed! The weapon that can wipe out ~70% - 90% of human population on the Earth in few days, the influence of which can be feel everywhere on the planet Earth (PC, AK-rifles, Dollars, etc), well . . . perhaps :).
that's why I said, watch some documentaries on the topic (available on youtube).
I cannot watch videos online, I can download ~ 1GB per few days ;(, coz' of my pathetic Interent connection (darn Internet Supply Provider), but I don't think that in this documentaries I can watch something interesting for frostysh.
and now you overestimate the minds of the scientists. Scientists are still humans, not perfect machines with supernatural powers (what you would need to survive such a scenario).
As I have said, in case of attack on Earth, frostysh will not survive, it is obviously - coz' frostysh is just a poor rural fella.
But in case of powerful government system, the situation is drastically different. Perhaps the single Scientist is only the human, but a large amount of well organized Scientists, and special personal can do a miracles. Imho.
 
  • #33
ChrisVer
Gold Member
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vehicles that designed to survive in full-scale nuclear conflict (fsnc), the prepared aircraft that can survive in the fsnc, they have even some civilian programs in this case - such as the any Metropolitan in the large cities is designed for such purposes, etc.
and all those resulted to complete failure.

So why they cannot have a secret full equipped military shelters for the special personal?
Because it can't work for that... we are talking for a falling meteor and not a nuke.

Hacking such large amount of stuff by single small fleet is too dangerous, there is a large possibility of detection - imho this is just impossible.
That is 100% wrong. Hacking can be done by small groups and target larger groups. Afterall we are talking about a civilization that can travel near c.

In addition small fleet cannot drug a large space bodies, such as meteor of size of United States.
In case more smaller impact, the peoples such as frostysh will be destroyed of course, but the guys that had preparing for a fsnc for a decades will be not. And the melting will be not homogenize on the crust of the Planet.
We have a large probability that some regions will be ~safe.
Well if it's able to travel at the speed of light or create a black hole, it can move a small rock around.
You still have no clue what is going to happen in such a collision, thinking that there is any kind of strategy to save anyone...

If the revolution technology is developed, it is not means that it will be spread very fast. A very good example - a Nuclear Energy, a Nuclear Weapon, only the most powerful government system with the most advanced Scientific potential will have access to such kind of Technologies. In this case, on Earth, for an example, US and SU and CPR is superior, the have the most powerful strategy developed during evolution - "if you want, and can help to us, you are welcomed to become our citizen!", to underestimate such potential is a horrific mistake. In case of global danger, this potential will be released and united they can do a miracles, but to unite them you need to place the entire Earth on the edge of destruction, because in the any other case, they will continue to kill each others like a crazy :D, and squashing, using like puppet dolls anything that is weaker than them, as for my humble opinion. (I am again have sorry for my dark humor and satire, this is a habits, a part of frostysh speech style, that have caused a lot of troubles to frostysh :/ )
In case of global danger no potential is ever released... again you try to drag it into politics, but we are talking about reality.

About robotic assistance, well perhaps wee need to wait for some time and perhaps in 2030, 2040 etc, some black dude like a Del Spooner (from "I, robot") will stand on the Bridge and declare a new era in the human-machine interaction history! :P Actually frostysh have a dream to create Artificial Intelligence, like a mr Miles Bennet Dyson from "Terminator 2: Judgement Day", but I mean without judgement day and anything of such kind ^^. But for now anything that frostysh have done - it's planted some trees on his yard :/.
Everyone has the right to dream... but the dreams are never coming true... I think we need at least 100 years or even more to have robot slaves... and maybe we will never do.

Same as moving a large asteroid undetectable to the target planet for a small fleet. And there is no need to move a planet, as I have said - the most powerful government can create another solution - like Mars program, etc. United they can easily do that, imho. I mean they have a lot bucket of smarty guys, so they can find the solution.
First of all, let's be again realistic. A meteor is not seen in the deep space, it has to be close to the earth to be detectable. However I am telling you that supposed that tomorrow NASA announces that a meteor will strike us in 20 years... It will be the end. You don't have the time to do act.

To overestimate a power of something the survived during the most horrible and bloody war in the History of mankind (Cold War), that have developed and constructed! The weapon that can wipe out ~70% - 90% of human population on the Earth in few days, the influence of which can be feel everywhere on the planet Earth (PC, AK-rifles, Dollars, etc), well . . . perhaps :).
Cold War was not bloody... that's why it was cold... what weapon can wipe out 70-90% of the population? We have discovered nothing that large yet... when a volcano is to erupt, we cannot stop it.

documentaries are on youtube and articles are available online too.

But in case of powerful government system, the situation is drastically different. Perhaps the single Scientist is only the human, but a large amount of well organized Scientists, and special personal can do a miracles. Imho.
The people on the government are also humans... since this is a strategy to wipe out the whole human population, the people in the governments are also doomed. Scientists need: resources, time, time and time and even after that miracles are impossible.
 
  • #34
Even during the economic crisis of 2008, Barack Obama had invested a large amount of money for detecting large meteors towards the earth.
 
  • #35
I'm quite familiar with it. I suggest you do a little research regarding energy released from man-made nuclear reactions relative to the mass of the earth before suggesting our nuclear arsenal could release anywhere near enough energy to destroy the actual planet. It is at least conceivably possible that if we were to devote enough global industry towards this goal and improve the yield of our weapons we might in the distant very future get to the point where we could physically blow the earth apart with nuclear reactions but to suggest that we can do it with what we have now is crazy. Of course, it would be far enough in the future we probably would have come up with much better ways to do it by that time so it's a moot point. We'll improve our ability to create antimatter to the point where we can make a large enough energy release that way long before we manufacture enough nuclear weapons to do it.
The threats of North Korea seems the time is not so far for a nuclear arsenal.
 
  • #36
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1) Years, it is too much of time.

That’s your opinion. I’m not in a hurry.

The more pathogens, the more peoples infected, the more time spent - the more probability that Virus will be detected.

That doesn’t matter as long as nobody knows that the viruses are pathogens. And how should somebody know it if they almost ever cause no symptoms?

3) Can you give 100% guarantee that there is no fully isolated personal of IC on the planet exist?

There is currently no known technology for full self-sustaining habitats and I’m not going to discuss conspiracy theories.

Any Biological agent […] can be easily countered by even a simple Chemical Suite.

Not if you are already infected.

The Nature can take effect on the pathogens, pathogens can evolve in unpredictable manner (there is no zero probability for that), it is icreasing the chances for detection.

Something like this is very unlikely and would be considered as what it actually is: a natural mutation of an apparently harmless virus or bacterium. In the worst case pandemic plans will be activated for this particular mutant. And even if somebody is paranoid enough to isolate people who have been tested negative for this species, they would take some of the other pathogens into the shelter.

In addition, the above mentioned natural resistance can play it's role, and from a 1 billion of exterminated IC will be just 1 survivor with immunity, and the end.

If the mortality is known for each pathogen it is quite easy to estimate the expected number of survivors. If it appears to be too high – no problem: The risk of failure decreases exponentially with the number of different pathogens. That makes an acceptable cost/benefit ratio from the view of the aggressor.

In addition the incubation period can take different time in different peoples, for an example in larva of IC population, and in old IC population it can take shorter time, it's drasitcally increasing the chance of detection.

Yes, there are individual variations of the incubation periods but they are not unpredictable. Nobody will have suspicions if early symptoms will be limited to isolated cases.

After the detection, governments of IC just and another lot amount of peoples will be immediately isolated

That will be too late. And even if some people can be isolated in time, they are just safe for weeks or maybe months only. It is currently and in the foreseeable future not possible to shelter many people for years or even decades (Did I mention that I do not talk about conspiracy theories?) and that is not sufficient if the pathogens can outlive as spores or in natural reservoirs. The survivors will need to return into the hostile environment.

I hate to disillusion you, but we currently would have no chance to survive such an aggression. Even a natural pandemic, with a single pathogen which has not been designed to kill humans as effective as possible, could terminate mankind as we know it – not as a species but as a technical civilization. Advanced bioweapons would be much more devastating. We just need to hope that nobody is both willing and able to create something like that.
 
  • #37
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and all those resulted to complete failure.
In term of Cold War - nope of course, even for today such systems and devices is a very effective, for an example SU Bombers that can carry nuclear arsenal, and US tanks have protection against Nuclear Biological Chemical.
Because it can't work for that... we are talking for a falling meteor and not a nuke.
That is 100% wrong. Hacking can be done by small groups and target larger groups. Afterall we are talking about a civilization that can travel near c.
Well if it's able to travel at the speed of light or create a black hole, it can move a small rock around.
You still have no clue what is going to happen in such a collision, thinking that there is any kind of strategy to save anyone...
In case of global danger no potential is ever released... again you try to drag it into politics, but we are talking about reality.
1) Coz I think the technologies against a meteor attack is not designed to protect most of peoples, I mean like a rural folks, they designed to protect a special personal and government, of course in case of the asteroid of size of US, this will be hard, but still it is a chance to survive in Mars etc. And I think US, CPR, and SU united can easily complete the Mars program.
In case of frostysh, he probably just sitting and waiting for the impact, because the hell with it :) (sorry for dark humor)

2) Hacking is almost impossible on something that is isolated from the world. And no one idiot will left something important connected to the Internet, for an example. In addition even in nowadays some technologies that making cyber attacks a very detectable in a very progress - Chinese satellite is one giant step for the quantum internet, of course we talking about group that can travel trough a "Wormholes" and make a small so-called "Balckholes", but I think we must try to not restrict too many laws of Nature :).

3) Create a very-very small so-called "Blackholes" is the one thing, but moving a large object such as asteroid is another. frostysh is little bit dull in Science, but I think it will harder. I mean when the ship can focus a large amount of Energy in small time-space volume, is the one thing, but how to move a large steroid with such stuff? It will just destroy the asteroid.

4) Global danger is not a just politics - if the US and SU have armed weapon that can left ~10% from 8 billions of peoples after a few days, it is not an imaginary threat... It is a reality, and they guys that have made and arm such weapon, obviously have many-many strategies that can count many-many risks and situations.
Everyone has the right to dream... but the dreams are never coming true... I think we need at least 100 years or even more to have robot slaves... and maybe we will never do.
I remembered Jules Verne and his dreams (books) :), and the fact, that Scientific progress have some 'acceleration'. And I think you too concerned about slavery, such kind of the utopia of the past, very unlikely will appear in the modern rich and progressive societies, and if even it may, I think it will face a horrific collapse soon after.
First of all, let's be again realistic. A meteor is not seen in the deep space, it has to be close to the earth to be detectable. However I am telling you that supposed that tomorrow NASA announces that a meteor will strike us in 20 years... It will be the end. You don't have the time to do act.
of course I will not have time to act, but frostysh is mentally stable in this case, so I have doubts that he will have a huge panic, at least before he will start melting :D (again sorry for my sarcasm and very dark humor). But if we give 20 years for preparing for powerful government they unite, and with almost no doubts will find the solution.
Cold War was not bloody... that's why it was cold... what weapon can wipe out 70-90% of the population? We have discovered nothing that large yet... when a volcano is to erupt, we cannot stop it.
I will not try to proclaim alternate History of the 20th century AD, but some "signs" of the Cold War much more erlier of the official dates, for an example so-called Communist International has been founded ~ 1919 AD, and the goal of this organization was the global communistic revolution, a very good example is a Civil War in Spain. So counting all those stuff, we can assume that Second World War, was actually somekind of a part of Cold War, well for an example if not landing in Normandy in 1944 AD, probably the borders of SU may be from Vladivostok to the West France Coast-line. Cold War is very characterize by using radical ideologies to manipulate a large masses of peoples to wreak a chaos and destruction.

About a ~70%-90% of pupolation on the Earth destroyed in fsnc between US and SU, is probably true, even a single Conserve underwater Armageddon (aka Submarine with class that can hold lot of nuclear toys) can drastically change the Global Climate on Earth - Alexandrov, V.V. and G.I. Stenchikov (1983): "On the modeling of the climatic consequences of the nuclear war" The Proceeding of Appl. Mathematics, 21 p., The Computing Center of the USSR Academy of Sciences, Moscow., similar conclusion has been reached from the both sides (and I think this is the main reason why we are still alive :D - sorry for the bad humor), the Nuclear Arsenal, ICBM, etc is designed mostly not to kill a militants, but to kill a civilians, it is a perfect killing machines, and with no doubts if all those arsenal of this two superpowers will be launched - the very large part of civilians on the planet Earth will die in horrific sufferings, despite of where they are, or who they are. This is because such powerful guys as United States is very carefully when deal comes to Nuclear Weapons.
documentaries are on youtube and articles are available online too.
The people on the government are also humans... since this is a strategy to wipe out the whole human population, the people in the governments are also doomed. Scientists need: resources, time, time and time and even after that miracles are impossible.
There is a very abyss in ability to protect themselves, between poor rural guys, such as frostysh, and smarty guys in bunkers - such guys cannot be harmed by anybody weak, weak guys is only able to harm (and they usually harming) non protected innocent peoples. But the powerful guys, such as United States, for an example is totally don't care about any weak guys, their attacks and their sandboxes in which they are playing.
I mean the defensive capabilities is very different in our topic
 
  • #38
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The threats of North Korea seems the time is not so far for a nuclear arsenal.

You're completely missing the point. You're conflating ending human life on earth with the physical destruction of the earth itself. Let's assume for the moment absolute worst-case scenario: all-out nuclear war. Every explosive on earth, nuclear and conventional, is detonated. The cumulative energy release from these weapons would do almost nothing to the physical planet itself. Go the Wikipedia page and read up about the actual mass of the Earth:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth

The resulting nuclear winter would probably cause the human race to go extinct a la the dinosaurs, but in a few million years or so (a small blip on the cosmic stopwatch) the earth would probably be right back where it is today. To quote George Carlin, "The planet isn't going anywhere. We are!! The planet will shake us off like a bad case of fleas, a surface nuisance". Yes I realize a comedian is hardly a scientific reference, but in this case he's right.

Our nuclear arsenal is certainly sufficient to wipe ourselves out (provided we're not real clever about sustainable bomb shelters). However, the premise of this thread is destroy the planet or 100% of life on it. The Chicxulub impact is estimated to have released energy equivalent to 1.30x10^8 megatons of TNT. By contrast, the most powerful man-made device ever detonated, the Tsar Bomba, released ~57MT. If the Chicxulub impact didn't wipe out all life (which it clearly didn't since we're here), our pitiful efforts wouldn't stand a chance. As for "destroying the planet", the Chicxulub impact didn't even significantly alter the earth's orbit. It made a decent-sized crater but that's about it.

Face it, on a cosmic scale, we're peons. Actually, we're orders of magnitude below peons.

http://impact.ese.ic.ac.uk/ImpactEffects/Chicxulub.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba
 
  • #39
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. . . .
Despite I am very sleepy for now, and I may will made a more large answer tomorrow. I want to say that I am very disagree with you. Biological agents is ineffective against special and military personal.
How you can hold isolated some amount of peoples from the civilization and pathogens outside? Just put the Nuclear Power Plant underground, and the end of story. But bucket of different pathogens is looks very deadly, bit still . I have played in PC game - "Plague Inc" there is some mode of infecting of the entire civilization of humans, on the most hard difficulty level - and I can say that pathogens is easily to detect :).
 
  • #40
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I have a lot of questions:

1) Does modern models of Full Scale Nuclear Conflict between US and SU including:

--- a) "Waves" character of nuclear carriers attack

--- b) High altitude detonation which aim is to disrupt the communications

--- c) The nuclear defense against nuclear carriers, I mean Anti Air stuff with Nuclear Warheads

--- d) The delayed launches that will be executed after a week (s) from a start of the conflict wich aim is to kill/make damage to civilian survivors

--- e) The fact that targets of attacks will be not only on the territories of US or SU, but actually all around the Earth, including Polar stuff.

2) I have found a lot of references to Nuclear "Armageddon", but I have found nothing about Biological "Armageddon" can somebody present an articles that modelling such things.

Thanx for the answers.
 
  • #41
ChrisVer
Gold Member
3,381
462
In term of Cold War - nope of course, even for today such systems and devices is a very effective, for an example SU Bombers that can carry nuclear arsenal, and US tanks have protection against Nuclear Biological Chemical.
how is that a success to surviving a fsnc? In the meantime we also discovered mobile phones.... that's not a success when talking for fsnc.

1) Coz I think the technologies against a meteor attack is not designed to protect most of peoples, I mean like a rural folks, they designed to protect a special personal and government, of course in case of the asteroid of size of US, this will be hard, but still it is a chance to survive in Mars etc. And I think US, CPR, and SU united can easily complete the Mars program.
Your guess is wrong there. You seem to believe there are such technologies but the thing is that there are none. If there are, they are at their infancy and there needs to be a long time before actually being able to be done. I don't know how to pass it to you, but studying/researching something doesn't mean you are able to use it. Another example on that is that the military can research about using apes or robots at war, or it can research for drugs that can make the soldiers obey and fight however long, but the thing is that many of these are either non-applicable yet or proved to be impossible to use in practice. Research done != Got the desired result.

2) Hacking is almost impossible on something that is isolated from the world. And no one idiot will left something important connected to the Internet, for an example. In addition even in nowadays some technologies that making cyber attacks a very detectable in a very progress - Chinese satellite is one giant step for the quantum internet, of course we talking about group that can travel trough a "Wormholes" and make a small so-called "Balckholes", but I think we must try to not restrict too many laws of Nature :).
How do you think you can see/detect meteors in space? By throwing bottles with letters inside the ocean?

3) Create a very-very small so-called "Blackholes" is the one thing, but moving a large object such as asteroid is another. frostysh is little bit dull in Science, but I think it will harder. I mean when the ship can focus a large amount of Energy in small time-space volume, is the one thing, but how to move a large steroid with such stuff? It will just destroy the asteroid.
you will need less energy to alter the meteor's trajectory and make it move towards the Earth.

4) Global danger is not a just politics - if the US and SU have armed weapon that can left ~10% from 8 billions of peoples after a few days, it is not an imaginary threat... It is a reality, and they guys that have made and arm such weapon, obviously have many-many strategies that can count many-many risks and situations.
and US and SU were unable to send a human on Mars... leave aside move lifeforms to a different galaxy in a reasonable amount of time.

I remembered Jules Verne and his dreams (books) :), and the fact, that Scientific progress have some 'acceleration'. And I think you too concerned about slavery, such kind of the utopia of the past, very unlikely will appear in the modern rich and progressive societies, and if even it may, I think it will face a horrific collapse soon after.
Acceleration is one thing... expecting for a fish to fly is another. Robot slavery is not a bad thing, we have computers as our slaves, but they are not close to being humans.

of course I will not have time to act, but frostysh is mentally stable in this case, so I have doubts that he will have a huge panic, at least before he will start melting :D (again sorry for my sarcasm and very dark humor). But if we give 20 years for preparing for powerful government they unite, and with almost no doubts will find the solution.
all doubt. It's just not enough time.

Cold War is very characterize by using radical ideologies to manipulate a large masses of peoples to wreak a chaos and destruction.
that was not the cold war. The cold war was the "undeclared" war between the Western civilization and the soviets. It started after WW2 when the new zones of influences began to form. What you call Cold War by your definition (by including the Internationale etc) is the struggle of classes (if you want to believe the communist side) or just a group/party of totalitarians who want to siege power in order to enslave everyone except for themselves (if you want to believe the non-communist side). WW2 had nothing to do with cold war, since it was the war the germans started to conquer the world and make a pure-white race.
For nuclear arsenal, someone already gave a nice answer... again nuclear weapons was not my answer. But a newer article:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2006JD008235/pdf

There is a very abyss in ability to protect themselves, between poor rural guys, such as frostysh, and smarty guys in bunkers - such guys cannot be harmed by anybody weak, weak guys is only able to harm (and they usually harming) non protected innocent peoples. But the powerful guys, such as United States, for an example is totally don't care about any weak guys, their attacks and their sandboxes in which they are playing.
I mean the defensive capabilities is very different in our topic

US is not such a terrible place, given what they offered the world ever after the 50's when they became the world's greatest power... However even the strongest people are humans - against the destruction inflicted by a falling meteor they can do nothing. They need food, they need water, they need normal temperatures to survive.
 
  • #42
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My problem with sterilizing a planet is that it's super super hard to kill everything. There is evidence that life existed on earth during the heavy bombardment, during which time the entire surface of the planet turned molten several times over. Huge impacts can launch projectiles with extremophiles into space, where they will remain until they crash back down later and reseed the planet.

For obliterating a planet, I like the grey goo scenario. It'll quickly envelope the planet, it's be extremely difficult to stop once started, and it would keep the planet sterile.
 
  • #43
ChrisVer
Gold Member
3,381
462
There is evidence that life existed on earth during the heavy bombardment, during which time the entire surface of the planet turned molten several times over.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Earth
I think life began to form after the crust was solidified

As for other organisms- I avoided saying that doing this damage on earth would be enough to destroy every life-form... It would be enough to destroy the human-like intelligent population though. Micro-organisms can survive in different environments and can be very adaptive to changes. I am not sure if there is any way to get rid of all of them... but at least the best choice I could come up with is the usage of chemical weapons.
 
  • #45
ChrisVer
Gold Member
3,381
462
that article is suspicious IMO... but maybe that's because I don't really trust those analyzers... they found 1 graphite out of 79 zircons that were selected out of 656 that were selected out of over than 10,000... and on that particular one they were able to identify the age by the selected zircon's Uranium/Lead ?? And they speak for confidence?
(by the way- wikipedia's article should be as suspicious... my point is that I don't understand the statistics used by those people who actually perform those measurements. But certainly we are talking for very basic life-forms and even that appeared after a while)
 
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  • #46
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how is that a success to surviving a fsnc? In the meantime we also discovered mobile phones.... that's not a success when talking for fsnc.
I mean this is a clues that powerful government systems have prepared their military personal, weapon systems, etc, in case of fsnc. This technologies (such as shelters) will obviously work in case of attack of the not very large meteor, or something like that.
Your guess is wrong there. You seem to believe there are such technologies but the thing is that there are none. If there are, they are at their infancy and there needs to be a long time before actually being able to be done. I don't know how to pass it to you, but studying/researching something doesn't mean you are able to use it. Another example on that is that the military can research about using apes or robots at war, or it can research for drugs that can make the soldiers obey and fight however long, but the thing is that many of these are either non-applicable yet or proved to be impossible to use in practice. Research done != Got the desired result.
I am not believing, I just making a possibility, I am making the probability of that and count it in my model. The world is not a computer program "Abc, abc, abc...". If something has been discovered and created, this is not means that this something will be used ever. If the powerful government achieving something during their non-public research, this government will not public this achievements and probably never use without an extreme case.
How do you think you can see/detect meteors in space? By throwing bottles with letters inside the ocean?
I am cannot. But in case of US NASA, for an example, they have a lot of technologies, a detailed map of surrounding space around Earth trajectory, they have (with no doubts) a plan and strategies in case if they will detect a danger, etc. The all of that factors, increasing the probability to detect a large asteroid threat.
you will need less energy to alter the meteor's trajectory and make it move towards the Earth.
And how many asteroid of size of US is near to the orbit of Earth? It's will take an eternity before such asteroid will reach the Earth, it will be obviously detected. And in addition if it will be no Earth, but the another Planet, perhaps there can be no asteroids nearby. Imho asteroid attack is not a good way.
and US and SU were unable to send a human on Mars... leave aside move lifeforms to a different galaxy in a reasonable amount of time.
They have no performed such expeditions, probably due to the fact, that they killing each other (and using anything weaker in their games) right there, on the Earth, and this war is need for an enormous amount of resources (time, human, etc), but if they will be united - they can do a miracles, imho.
And of course, I not speaking to save a frostysh, for an example in that case, nor a large part of humanity but US and SU can send a mission to mars, with some amount of males females, that in the result will restore the population, of course using the any modern Science achievements.
Acceleration is one thing... expecting for a fish to fly is another. Robot slavery is not a bad thing, we have computers as our slaves, but they are not close to being humans.
In term of "Robots" and the "black guy on the bridge that will declare a new era" I mean the film "I, Robot" which has been created on the writings of Isaac Asimov. In short I mean Intelligent Machines, and not just Machines. Imho, any intelligent enough creature that can make it's own choices, we name as something "living being".
all doubt. It's just not enough time.
Maybe, what a matter.
that was not the cold war. The cold war was the "undeclared" war between the Western civilization and the soviets. It started after WW2 when the new zones of influences began to form. What you call Cold War by your definition (by including the Internationale etc) is the struggle of classes (if you want to believe the communist side) or just a group/party of totalitarians who want to siege power in order to enslave everyone except for themselves (if you want to believe the non-communist side). WW2 had nothing to do with cold war, since it was the war the germans started to conquer the world and make a pure-white race.
For nuclear arsenal, someone already gave a nice answer... again nuclear weapons was not my answer. But a newer article:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2006JD008235/pdf
If this war has been not declared officially, how do you know when exactly this war has started? :)
If we gonna take for an example Spanish Civil War, we can easily make the parallels with War in Vietnam, and even with the W2 - I mean interior regional conflicts, usually not very bloody and usually take it's over short after begins, unless the any side of this conflict is 'supported' from the outside, the using in this case a radical ideologies was (and probably is) a standard measure, a very good examples Africa (Angola, SAR, etc), Middle East, this list actually touching probably any places on Earth, maybe for an exception of Australia :D. Actually before the W2 was a complicated diplomatic games, but I have doubts that somebody was able to predict a mythological madness that will force nazies to do such genocide things. Neverless, even a pacts between SU and Nazi German has been created, and it looks like SU (probably using it's obtained experience in Spain) have made some support for Nazi before the W2, perhaps the plan was to make a war inside of Europe with help of radical ideologies, and then conquer weekend states (but the homicidal internal politics and aura of fear have played a bad joke in this case with SU, and actually W2 for SU was looks more like a Civil War..), and actually this plan may be succeed if no landing of Allies in the Normandy in 1944AD. So from that point of view, the W2 is a part of Cold War, same as 'demo version' during a Spanish Civil War.

Cannot download the article :/. Anyway, this thoughts give me the idea of most successful scenario (imho) - small fleet may send somekind of Invader Zim (like in the same name cartoon), and Invader will make disruption, war and chaos, and simultaneous will be unleashed a combination of attacks on the weaken after nuclear Armageddon planet - biological pathogens, etc.
US is not such a terrible place, given what they offered the world ever after the 50's when they became the world's greatest power... However even the strongest people are humans - against the destruction inflicted by a falling meteor they can do nothing. They need food, they need water, they need normal temperatures to survive.
Well, actually depending on the Scientific and Society potential, US was no doubts power more earlier too. But of course after the Nuclear Weapon has been created in enough numbers, no any power cannot stands against, for an exception of SU.
About life in shelters - food and water can be produces with help of Nuclear Power Plant. As you may know, even a 'synthetic' meat has been developed a long time ago.

lab-burger-bbc-copy-300x169.png


First lab-grown burger: Groundbreaking, a bit bland, and definitely not GM
 
  • #47
It's looks ridiculous and totally ineffective, imho.

I'm telling you, moon is your best bet.
Your only investment is rocket fuel. The moon is already gravitating to earth, so the fuel wouldn't be that much. Because once it starts going, it will continually accelerate due to gravity and you won't need fuel anymore.
If the inital impact doesn't destroy the planet completely, it would probably mess up earth's orbit and make it fall into the sun.
 
  • #48
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I'm telling you, moon is your best bet.
Your only investment is rocket fuel. The moon is already gravitating to earth, so the fuel wouldn't be that much. Because once it starts going, it will continually accelerate due to gravity and you won't need fuel anymore.
If the inital impact doesn't destroy the planet completely, it would probably mess up earth's orbit and make it fall into the sun.
How you can try to move the Moon? If you will apply large amount of Energy to the small area on the Moon it will just be destroyed. It is not a super-hard steel ball, it's will have it's own dynamical reaction on the force applied, that will include destructive deformation, increasing heat, etc. As for myself it's look ridiculous, but frostysh is dull in the Mechanics (as in the other disciplines too ;/ ) so perhaps you can make a more clear explanation of how you want try to move the Moon.
And in addition we talking about the Earth, but the question was about the Planet in general, so if the particular Planet have not Moon? What next? The question was about more universal strategy to destroy IC population on the particular Planet.
 
  • #49
How you can try to move the Moon? If you will apply large amount of Energy to the small area on the Moon it will just be destroyed. It is not a super-hard steel ball, it's will have it's own dynamical reaction on the force applied, that will include destructive deformation, increasing heat, etc. As for myself it's look ridiculous, but frostysh is dull in the Mechanics (as in the other disciplines too ;/ ) so perhaps you can make a more clear explanation of how you want try to move the Moon.
And in addition we talking about the Earth, but the question was about the Planet in general, so if the particular Planet have not Moon? What next? The question was about more universal strategy to destroy IC population on the particular Planet.
Ugh, the math indicates the rockets won't accelerate the moon fast enough.
But what if we attach rockets to asteroids, and we bombard the moon with asteroids? Will this push the moon more, because the kinetic energy is nonlinear and ke=1/2*m*(v2)?
 
  • #50
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Ugh, the math indicates the rockets won't accelerate the moon fast enough.
But what if we attach rockets to asteroids, and we bombard the moon with asteroids? Will this push the moon more, because the kinetic energy is nonlinear and ke=1/2*m*(v2)?
But how large must be this asteroids? I think it is almost impossible to hit the Moon with undetected asteroid, and when such organization as US NASA will detect asteroid, they can try to change it's trajectory, if this will be not very large asteroid, and counting the fact that hitting the Moon is much more harder than the Earth, so they can change it's trajectory only for little bit, and asteroid will miss the Moon.

And again, what if the Planet have no such large Moon? Imho all this mess with cosmic bodies, such as asteroid is only effective versus a primitive form of life, (for an example those Comet that hits the Earth many millions years ago, indeed was effective against Dinosaurs in long term perspective, but still).
 

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