How to show time ordering is frame independent

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    Frame Independent Time
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around demonstrating the frame independence of time ordering for spacetime points in the context of quantum field theory, specifically referencing Srednicki's "Quantum Field Theory". Participants seek to understand how to show that time ordering is invariant for timelike separations and how it can differ for spacelike separations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Technical explanation, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant asks how to explicitly show that the time ordering of two spacetime points is frame independent if their separation is timelike.
  • Another participant inquires about the definitions of timelike and spacelike intervals, providing a mathematical framework involving time and spatial differences.
  • A participant expresses a need for clarification on how to demonstrate the frame independence of the time ordering operation for timelike separations, referencing Srednicki's text.
  • One participant suggests that for the time ordering to be frame independent, the time difference in the transformed frame must have the opposite sign compared to the original frame.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not appear to reach a consensus on how to demonstrate the frame independence of time ordering, and multiple competing views and questions remain unresolved.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes mathematical expressions and transformations related to Lorentz transformations, but lacks a complete resolution of the assumptions and definitions necessary for the claims made.

baixiaojian
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Hello, everyone

I am studying Srednicki's "Quantum Field Theory", section 4 "The spin-statistics Theorem".
Does anyone know how to show that "The time ordering of two spacetime points x and x' is frame independent if their separation is timelike."(P32), explicitly?
And "Two spacetime points whose separation is spacelike, can have different temporal ordering in different frames." How to show this?

Thanks
 
Last edited:
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what is the definition of timelike and spacelike intervals?

timelike:
7d40606e17197f22c8343aa6fd354115.png

spacelike:
36c24ff1c4a2d6564ac46e804382e12f.png

Δt=time difference
Δr=spatial difference
s=interval

time and distance measured in different frames:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=257689
jtbell said:
Let events 1 and 2 occur at (x_1, t_1) and (x_2, t_2) in frame S. In frame S' they occur at

x_1^{\prime} = \gamma (x_1 - v t_1)

t_1^{\prime} = \gamma (t_1 - v x_1 / c^2)

x_2^{\prime} = \gamma (x_2 - v t_2)

t_2^{\prime} = \gamma (t_2 - v x_2 / c^2)

Subtracting pairs of equations gives

\Delta x^{\prime} = x_2^{\prime} - x_1^{\prime} = \gamma ((x_2 - x_1) - v (t_2 - t_1)) = \gamma (\Delta x - v \Delta t)

\Delta t^{\prime} = t_2^{\prime} - t_1^{\prime} = \gamma ((t_2 - t_1) - v (x_2 - x_1) / c^2) = \gamma (\Delta t - v \Delta x / c^2)

That is, the Lorentz transformation applies to \Delta x and \Delta t just as it does to x and t, because the transformation is linear.
 
Last edited:
Thank you for your reply. But my question is how to show "the time ordering operation" of two spacetime points x and x' is frame independent if their separation is timelike.
I attached the following paragraph from Srednicki's book for your reference. Please click the attachment for clarity.
gg.jpg
 
you need Δt' to be the opposite sign of Δt
 

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