How to transform this into partial derivatives? (Arfken)

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around transforming equations related to the divergence of a vector field and the continuity equation, as presented in Arfken's "Mathematical Methods for Physicists." Participants explore the mathematical definitions and relationships between these concepts, particularly focusing on partial derivatives and their applications in physics.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about transforming specific equations from left to right sides, indicating a need for clarification on the mathematical process involved.
  • Another participant discusses the importance of distinguishing between finite quantities and limits in the context of derivatives, proposing a definition of a function related to the problem.
  • It is suggested that the left side of the equation represents the divergence of a vector field, while the right side is the time derivative of a density function, implying that they are not equal in all cases without additional context.
  • Some participants mention that the second equation relates to the conservation of mass, describing it as a statement about mass flow into and out of a control volume.
  • A later reply acknowledges a typo in a previous post but confirms that the main argument was understood despite the error.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the transformation of the equations, with some arguing that they cannot be equated without additional conditions, while others provide insights into the continuity equation and its derivation.

Contextual Notes

There are indications of missing assumptions regarding the conditions under which the equations can be transformed or equated, as well as the need for further clarification on the definitions used in the discussion.

physicophysiology
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Hello. Glad to meet you, everyone
I am studying the [Mathematical Methods for Physicists; A Comprehensive Guide (7th ed.) - George B. Arfken, Hans J. Weber, Frank E. Harris]
In Divergence of Vector Field,
I do not understand that
1.png

How to transform the equation in left side into that in right side?

Besides, the other question is
2.png

How to transform the equation in left side into that in right side?
 

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In physics derivations, we often tend to be a little careless about distinguishing between small finite things and the limit as those things go to 0. But essentially the first one is using the definition of derivative.

Suppose instead of ##dx## you use ##h##.
Define ##f(x) = \rho v_x##.
Then ##\left. -(\rho v_x) \right |_{x-dx/2} = f(x - (h/2))## and ##\left. -(\rho v_x) \right |_{x+dx/2} = f(x + (h/2))## and the left hand side of that equation becomes ##f(x + (h/2)) - f(x - (h/2))##.
We know that in the limit as ##h \rightarrow 0##, ##\frac {f(x + (h/2)) - f(x - (h/2))} {h} \rightarrow \frac {\partial f}{\partial x}## which is being rearranged as
##f(x + (h/2)) - f(x - (h/2)) = h \frac {\partial f}{\partial x}##
where ##h## is the infinitesimal ##dx##.

It is as I said not exactly rigorous mathematics.

As for your second question, you can not transform the left into the right. That's not a statement that the two quantities are equal in all cases. It's a restatement of some earlier differential equation. The left is the divergence of ##\rho \vec v## and the right is the time derivative of ##\rho##. There must be some other equation that says that those two things are equal for ##\rho##.
 
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RPinPA said:
In physics derivations, we often tend to be a little careless about distinguishing between small finite things and the limit as those things go to 0. But essentially the first one is using the definition of derivative.

Suppose instead of ##dx## you use ##h##.
Define ##f(x) = \rho v_x##.
Then ##\left. -(\rho v_x) \right |_{x-dx/2} = f(x - (h/2))## and ##\left. -(\rho v_x) \right |_{x+dx/2} = f(x + (h/2))## and the left hand side of that equation becomes ##f(x + (h/2)) - f(x - (h/2))##.
We know that in the limit as ##h \rightarrow 0##, ##\frac {f(x + (h/2)) - f(x - (h/2))} {h} \rightarrow \frac {\partial f}{\partial x}## which is being rearranged as
##f(x + (h/2)) - f(x - (h/2)) = h \frac {\partial f}{\partial x}##
where ##h## is the infinitesimal ##dx##.

It is as I said not exactly rigorous mathematics.

As for your second question, you can not transform the left into the right. That's not a statement that the two quantities are equal in all cases. It's a restatement of some earlier differential equation. The left is the divergence of ##\rho \vec v## and the right is the time derivative of ##\rho##. There must be some other equation that says that those two things are equal for ##\rho##.
I think the second equation is just conservation of mass.
 
The second equation is required by conservation of mass. It is equivalent to saying that the rate of increase of mass within a fixed control volume is equal to the net rate of flow of mass into the control volume (in minus out).
 
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RPinPA said:
In physics derivations, we often tend to be a little careless about distinguishing between small finite things and the limit as those things go to 0. But essentially the first one is using the definition of derivative.

Suppose instead of ##dx## you use ##h##.
Define ##f(x) = \rho v_x##.
Then ##\left. -(\rho v_x) \right |_{x-dx/2} = f(x - (h/2))## and ##\left. -(\rho v_x) \right |_{x+dx/2} = f(x + (h/2))## and the left hand side of that equation becomes ##f(x + (h/2)) - f(x - (h/2))##.
We know that in the limit as ##h \rightarrow 0##, ##\frac {f(x + (h/2)) - f(x - (h/2))} {h} \rightarrow \frac {\partial f}{\partial x}## which is being rearranged as
##f(x + (h/2)) - f(x - (h/2)) = h \frac {\partial f}{\partial x}##
where ##h## is the infinitesimal ##dx##.

It is as I said not exactly rigorous mathematics.

As for your second question, you can not transform the left into the right. That's not a statement that the two quantities are equal in all cases. It's a restatement of some earlier differential equation. The left is the divergence of ##\rho \vec v## and the right is the time derivative of ##\rho##. There must be some other equation that says that those two things are equal for ##\rho##.

Thank you very much
And I found the derivation of continuity equation so I understood the second equation
 
physicophysiologist said:
Thank you very much
And I found the derivation of continuity equation so I understood the second equation

There was a typo in my response, a minus sign that doesn't belong there. But glad you got the sense of my argument anyway.
 

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