Hubble redshift and calculation of galactic rotation curves

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the necessity of accounting for Hubble Redshift when determining the rotation velocities of galaxies that exhibit keplerian motion. Participants explore whether the spatial expansion of the Universe leads to spectral shifts that create an observed asymmetry in the line-of-sight (LOS) velocities of material moving toward and away from the observer.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the need to account for Hubble Redshift effects on rotation velocities, suggesting that the expansion does not create asymmetry in the detected speeds of material moving toward and away from the observer.
  • Another participant presents a hypothetical scenario to illustrate that the Doppler effects should be symmetric, regardless of the galaxy's redshift, implying that the observed wavelengths would shift similarly for both approaching and receding material.
  • A third participant introduces an analogy involving helicopter blades to question whether the perceived RPM differs based on the observer's position relative to the blades' motion.
  • A later reply speculates that an asymmetric phenomenon related to redshift could occur if the recession velocity of a galaxy approaches the speed of light, suggesting that material moving away could become unobservable while other parts of the system remain detectable.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether Hubble Redshift leads to asymmetry in observed velocities, with some arguing for symmetry and others suggesting potential asymmetries under specific conditions. The discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants do not reach consensus on the implications of Hubble Redshift for galactic rotation curves, and there are unresolved assumptions regarding the conditions under which asymmetries might arise.

ConformalGrpOp
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I am interested in whether it is necessary to account for the effects of the Hubble Redshift in determining the rotation velocities of galaxies exhibiting keplerian motion and, in particular, whether the associated spatial expansion of the Universe is known to result in spectral shifts that produce an observed asymmetry in the apparent LOS velocity between material in these systems that is moving toward and material that is moving away from the observer. I would also appreciate any references in the literature where this specific subject is discussed.
 
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I don't know of any asymmetry in the effect of Hubble expansion, on the way towards and away speeds of material are detected. The rotation speeds are not relativistic. Say there is some stuff on one side coming towards us at 300 km/s and on the other side going away at 300 km/s. So wavelengths are either contracted or expanded by a tenth of a percent. Multiplied by 999/1000, or by 1001/1000, compared with the average for the galaxy.

Then suppose that the galaxy is at 1+z = 3. So everything is coming in larger by a factor of 3. You would expect the Doppler effects to be proportional and the same percentagewise as before. The effect of Hubble expansion would be symmetric: still one tenth of one percent expanded or contracted. either way.

It seems intuitive to me, not in need of analysis. So I could be missing something--there may be something I can learn from you, if you would like to teach me---IOW how an asymmetry might arise.
 
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Picture the blades of a helicopter. Does the RPM of the blades appear different when it is receeding as opposed to when approaching, or hovering in place?
 
Thank you Marcus and Chronos. I get the idea. With this in mind, the only asymmetric phenomena one could associate with the redshift that I can conceive of (though I wouldn't necessarily exclude the possibility of others), is where the recession velocity of the system is just below the speed of light so that the rotational velocity of the material moving away from the observer exceeds the speed of light relative to the observer. That material would, presumably be unobservable while the remainder of the system could, at least theoretically, be determined.
 
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