Hydrogen-fueled Internal Combustion Engine (ICE)

[Astronuc]

Toyota’s alternative solution to meet increasingly strict environmental laws and fossil fuel phaseout is a new prototype hydrogen Internal Combustion Engine (abbreviated "ICE") car called the Corolla Cross H2 Concept. Power comes from the hot 1.6 liter turbocharged three-cylinder used in the GR Corolla and GR Yaris, converted to using hydrogen as a fuel. What does that conversion process look like? To begin, thick, armored fuel tank(s) are required for holding the highly flammable hydrogen technology that Toyota gleaned from its FCEV (Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle), the Mirai.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/new...ine-has-the-potential-to-bury-evs/ar-AA15Q9mq

See also an old thread - https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/hydrogen-combustion-engines.70653/

But what material. I know that Nippon Steel & Sumitomo Metals Corporation has developed a version of Nitronic^(R) 50 (aka XM-19, 22-13-5, UNS S20910) they call HRX19^TM, which is design specifically for pressurized storage and transmission of hydrogen. I designed another variant for a similar purpose.
https://www.nipponsteel.com/en/news/20150120_100.html

 

[Nik_2213]

Bravo !
But, IMHO, a couple of issues...
Hydrogen gas is a nuisance to store and transport. I had to wrangle our lab's gas chromatographs' bottled hydrogen and, even with 'Due Care' and correct handling, those big, heavy cylinders were scary...

( Our LPG cylinders were bigger, heavier and scarier. Acetylene cylinders were in a different league, handled as warily as 'Unexploded Ordnance', as accident or fire could launch them a quarter-mile or so: Be NOT There... )

Hydrogen gas is almost as 'slippery' as the Helium gas we also used. But, I remember 'Town Gas', that noxious, explosion-prone H₂+CO mix. Remarkably simple seals sufficed for compression joints, literally just a winding of cotton or linen thread where we'd now use plastic tape. The trick was that 'Town Gas' was kept slightly moist, which kept the thread wet, and H₂ at 'domestic' pressure was only sparingly soluble in water. Unintended consequence was that, upon conversion to carry methane or LPG, such joints dried out, leaked....

IMHO, you should either generate your car's hydrogen 'at point of use', or store in a fashion that did not rely on high-pressure containment. So, clathrates / zeolites, catalysis of ammonia or whatever.

 

[sophiecentaur]

IMHO, you should either generate your car's hydrogen 'at point of use', or store in a fashion that did not rely on high-pressure containment.

Doesn't exclude H as an energy storage medium tho'? The 'point of use' would usually be many miles from the source of H.

 

[diogenesNY]

IIRC correctly, Ford had a division that was developing experimental hydrogen powered internal combustion engines for passenger cars. This was in the mid 2000's, I think. They produced working engines, but concluded that it was not a commercially viable direction of research and development, and they sold off the technology, assets, prototypes, etc to some smallish development company which intended to continue the research and commercialization independently. I never heard anything about that company or its products, etc since then.

 

[Evari5te]

I read somewhere that Hydrogen ICE's still produce oxides of nitrogen, which are deleterious to respiratory health.

If we need to re-tool our transport to low or zero carbon, perhaps we should be moving away from combustion altogether to eliminate as many of the other pollutants that are directly damaging to human health as possible.

 

[sophiecentaur]

I read somewhere that Hydrogen ICE's still produce oxides of nitrogen, which are deleterious to respiratory health.

That's interesting. I had a son-in-law who was telling me about Ford dabbling with Hydrogen ICEs but I imagine it would be their style to keep such blue skies ideas remote. If the research ever takes us anywhere then they can always buy up the research company and make use of the idea.

Thing about any system for mobile Energy storage and use will have finite knock-ons, simply because of the scale it would have to involve. It will be the overall system that counts and you can't trust governments and big business to go for the 'best' solution.

 

[BWV]

Why? ICEs are far less efficient than electric motors

 

[anorlunda]

I read somewhere that

That's never acceptable on physics forums. Give us a link to what you read.

 

[sophiecentaur]

Why? ICEs are far less efficient than electric motors

I agree, on the face of it but it's the overall energy / carbon cost, including storage etc. We'd need to see the full figures. I don't know the overall cost of fuel cells.

. . . . and half the year we need our heaters!

 

[Evari5te]

That's never acceptable on physics forums. Give us a link to what you read.

My apologies - took a while to remember where I had read it but here it is.

https://www.cummins.com/news/2022/01/27/hydrogen-internal-combustion-engines-and-hydrogen-fuel-cells

Paragraph after the infographic reads:

"Hydrogen engines release near zero, trace amounts of CO2 (from ambient air and lubrication oil), but can produce nitrogen oxides, or NOx. As a result, they are not ideal for indoor use and require exhaust aftertreatments to reduce NOx emissions."

 

[Nik_2213]

Sounds like that design is running much too hot, at least in parts of cylinder. A generic problem with hydrogen as IC fuel, which will take some fixing...

IIRC, UK airships' gasoline-type engines were intended to burn H₂ as fuel, but never solved it so reverted to hydrocarbons.
Also, Zeppelins, with diesel engines, also failed to thrive on H₂ fuel, had to switch to 'Blau gas', which sorta-resembled propane, again hydrocarbon...

 

[Evari5te]

NOx is a generic problem with all Internal Combustion engines, including Diesel, Gasoline (Petrol to me) and synthetic fuels - hydrocarbons where the carbon is derived from the atmosphere rather than fossil.

This sums it up quite well.

https://findandfundmycar.com/articles/what-is-nitrogen-oxide-

Synth fuels are being mooted as being a potential low carbon future transport fuel but still suffer from similar particulate pollution - soots - as diesel and gasoline.

In my opinion and to mitigate insofar as possible public health impacts of transport, especially in urban environments combustion, including Hydrogen, is always going to have its issues when it comes to air quality making electrical vehicles the clear winner at least for light passenger vehicles.

I can't solve the charging infrastructure requirements / range issues / burden on natural resources for battery materials etc. that come with electric vehicles and understand completely that commercial / bulk haulage is not suitable for battery electric.

I would think fuel cell technology will fill the gap for haulage - the Cummins article makes an interesting point about efficiency of fuel cells being higher at low loads, therefore a disadvantage to transport applications, but in my mind there wouldn't be such a weight penalty in oversizing a fuel cell for trucking and commercial vehicle applications.

I cannot solve either the other particulate pollution from brake pads and tyres, but we are at pivot point where we can choose the cleanest tech to develop from all aspects for our future transport, I would say that has to be battery electric (passenger) and fuel cell (goods) provided efforts continue to decarbonise the grid - UK government ambition is carbon neutral grid by 2035 - and source green hydrogen.

 

[sophiecentaur]

why can't an ICE be powered by H2 and O2,

The "transport issues" are very relevant. I was looking at a video that was was dealing with just this same issue in the field of artillery ordnance. The mass of explosive for artillery constitutes a major limitation in range. Ramjets are being investigated. By using the oxygen in the air, you save a major load, improving the maximum range of artillery from 22km to 150km.
Why carry it around in your car when you can just use what you're travelling through? This must be a factor with torpedoes as well.

 

[russ_watters]

Given that H2 production may have allied O2 production, why can't an ICE be powered by H2 and O2, in appropriate proportions, rather than burning H2 with free air?

Of course they can be.

To me though the question of whether to just use the H2 or use both the H2 and O2 doesn't even matter(the oxygen will be captured and used for something either way). That's not the problem with The Hydrogen Economy; efficiency/energy use is.

 

[Flyboy]

Given that H2 production may have allied O2 production, why can't an ICE be powered by H2 and O2, in appropriate proportions, rather than burning H2 with free air?

Combustion temperatures and speeds. Pure H2/O2 combustion runs extremely hot, and would burn extremely quickly, bordering on detonation. Either would destroy the engine in short order. Using standard atmospheric air, which is 79% nitrogen, significantly moderates flame temperature and slows the combustion speed, making it more practical.

That’s also not getting into the safety issues of carting around pure oxygen. I’ve worked with the stuff in pressurized gas form, and I treat it with great care. I don’t trust the average person to do the same, and I don’t want to think about what could happen in an accident/crash.

Of course they can be.

To me though the question of whether to just use the H2 or use both the H2 and O2 doesn't even matter(the oxygen will be captured and used for something either way). That's not the problem with The Hydrogen Economy; efficiency/energy use is.

Bingo. If we opt for hydrogen as our portable energy source, a fuel cell would be far more economical than an internal combustion engine.

But that does still rely on solving the logistics of production, transportation, and storage of hydrogen.

 

[sophiecentaur]

But that does still rely on solving the logistics of production, transportation, and storage of hydrogen.

And where are we now? It would be a seriously attractive system …… if only.

 

[DrJohn]

The vast bulk of all hydrogen production is from methane - CH4. The side product is CO2.
Not exactly environmentally friendly.

"but we could use electrolysis of water to get hydrogen..."
So how do we make the electricity? Why would we make one form of energy, then use it to make another one?

 

[Flyboy]

Tbh, hydrogen is just an energy storage medium, not an energy source. I’d have to do the math, but if it’s a significant increase in energy density than a battery, it might be worthwhile for a fuel cell/electric car in lieu of batteries… if the storage and handling issues can be resolved.

As for internal combustion… probably not viable. If it is, I would say it’s better suited stationary applications like generators rather than mobile applications.

 

[sophiecentaur]

As for internal combustion… probably not viable.

My ex son in law works for Ford and was telling me that they are seriously looking into a Hydrogen based ICE. Their vast experience of ICE makes H an interesting direction to go for the energy conversion. Of course they are still presented with the storage problem. There's nothing quite so convenient as a tank of gasoline and the motor industry has always looked for the 'easy way' and hang the consequences.

EDIT: I think I have already made this comment earlier but it's still relevant.