Hypothetically If you were in a spaceship going 0.99999999999 c and you tried

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Discussion Overview

The discussion explores the hypothetical scenario of being in a spaceship traveling at 0.99999999999...c and attempting to walk to the front of the craft. It addresses concepts of relative motion, velocity addition, and the implications of special relativity on perceived motion within the spaceship compared to an external observer.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that one would walk to the end of the craft without noticing any difference in their own frame of reference.
  • Others argue that from the perspective of an external observer, the spaceship would appear to be traveling at 0.99999999999...c while the person walking inside would seem to move at a much slower speed relative to the ship.
  • A participant presents the relativistic velocity addition formula, suggesting that velocities do not simply add linearly at high speeds.
  • Another participant notes that if one were to walk forward at a speed slightly greater than the spaceship's speed, they would not exceed the speed of light.
  • Some contributions discuss the implications of Galilean versus relativistic transformations, emphasizing that relative velocities cannot exceed c.
  • A participant uses an analogy involving circular motion to explain how velocities are perceived differently depending on the frame of reference.
  • There is a suggestion that the experience of walking within the spaceship would feel normal, as the spaceship is stationary relative to itself.
  • One participant reiterates that the fundamental principle of relativity indicates that one cannot distinguish between systems in relative inertial motion.
  • Another point raised is that from Earth's perspective, the person inside the spaceship would appear to be moving very slowly, almost frozen in time.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the implications of walking within a fast-moving spaceship. There is no consensus on the exact nature of the experience or the interpretation of relative motion.

Contextual Notes

Some statements rely on specific interpretations of relativistic effects and may depend on the definitions of speed and reference frames. The discussion includes various assumptions about the nature of motion and perception in different frames of reference.

battlestar08
Hypothetically If you were in a spaceship going 0.99999999999...c and you tried...

Hypothetically, If you were in a spaceship going 0.9999999999999...c and you tried to walk forward up to the the end of the craft, what would happen.
 
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You'd walk forward to the end of the craft.
 


Velocities add according to

[tex]u\oplus v=\frac{u+v}{1+uv}[/tex]

If the velocites aren't parallel, the formula is

[tex]\vec u\oplus\vec v=\frac{1}{1+\vec u\cdot\vec v}\bigg(\vec u+\vec v+\frac{\gamma_{\vec u}}{1+\gamma_{\vec u}}\vec u\times(\vec u\times\vec v)\bigg)[/tex]

This is in units such that c=1.
 


As long as you aren't accelerating you won't ever notice any difference from speed in your own frame of reference. From the point of view of something that is traveling at 0.99c now relative to Earth, Earth is traveling at 0.99c. So right now, you are traveling 0.99c.
 


battlestar08 said:
Hypothetically, If you were in a spaceship going 0.9999999999999...c and you tried to walk forward up to the the end of the craft, what would happen.

If you didn't stop, you would smash into the forward bulkhead at the tremendous speed of ...99999999999c, and then break for a pleasant lunch of space snacks before attempting the rear bulkhead.
 


battlestar08 said:
Hypothetically, If you were in a spaceship going 0.9999999999999...c and you tried to walk forward up to the the end of the craft, what would happen.
That, with respect to those who measure as 0.9999999999999...c your spaceship speed, you are moving at 0.99999999999999...c
(Note that I have added a "9", just to mean that your speed is slightly greater than the spaceship's speed).
Your speed will never reach (or overtake) c.
 


We can be more exact than that. :smile:

u=0.9999999999999
v=6*1000/3600/299792458=5.559401586635867492926278574582e-9

(That v is 6 km/s).

(u+v)/(1+u*v)=0.99999999999990000000111188031115
 


Post three is from the frame of an external observer. You could also move at .99c from rear to front in the spaceship frame...and all would appear normal inside the sapce ship...
 


In Galilean relativity (Newtonian physics) we change velocity frames by adding velocities which is an affine transformation.

In SR we change velocity frames via (hyperbolic) pseudo-rotations which are linear transformations. To compose velocity frames you don't add velocities by rather the boost parameter (B) which parametrizes the pseudo-rotation.

x' = x cosh(B) + t sinh(B)
t' = x sinh(B) + t cosh(B)

Each boost you add to the previous gives you just the same situation as before, you seem to be standing still. It just changes you relative to someone else and always the relative velocity between two objects is less than c.

Here is a good analogy using the case of true rotations.

Given the radius of the Earth two people cannot be farther (in terms of straight-line distance) than 2R from each other. Suppose you are standing 1.999999999999999999999999 R away from home and you take a step forward... what happens?

What happens is that you took one step forward just as if you were at home. You need to do the math to see how that changes your distance from home but it doesn't make you pass the maximum distance because you aren't walking in a straight line but rather along a circle around the Earth. In short you are rotating rather than translating.

Similarly you don't boost velocities "along a straight line" but rather "pseudo-rotate" along a hyperbola. The hyperbola only looks like a hyperbola when we draw it on Euclidean paper (rather than in pseudo-Euclidean Minkowski space). Just as the surface of the Earth (minus terrain variations and weather) looks the same everywhere on its surface the hyperbolic surface that space-time 4-velocities stay on looks the same everywhere. Your velocity is not a property of you but is rather a relationship between you and another object. You can pick an arbitrary "home" frame but anything you see or predict should not depend on the choice of that home frame.
 
  • #10


battlestar08 said:
Hypothetically, If you were in a spaceship going 0.9999999999999...c and you tried to walk forward up to the the end of the craft, what would happen.
If you mean that you are in a spaceship which is going at 0.999999999...c relative to some observer (I think Phrap was (perhaps facetiously) interpreting this as you moving at 0.99999999...c relative to the spaceship) then you are moving very slowly relative to the spaceship and so nothing special will happen- relative to itself, the spaceship is stationary.

You can test that by getting up and walking across the room: there surely exist some frame of reference relative to which you are moving at 0.99999999...c right now!
 
  • #11


battlestar08 said:
Hypothetically, If you were in a spaceship going 0.9999999999999...c and you tried to walk forward up to the the end of the craft, what would happen.

Vanadium 50 answers this in #2.

One of the fundamental points of relativity, Newtonian, Einsteinian etc. is that you cannot distinguish between systems in relative inertial motion. So in the original question you could enter any value for the relative velocity or you may as well say motionless. If you are on Earth in a room and ask what would happen if I tried to walk towards the door what would the answer be? To paraphrase Vanadium's reply, you would walk towards the door.

Matheinste.
 
  • #12


Now, if Earth observed you on the other hand ... they'd see a spaceship flashing past at .999999999c and inside, they'd see you virtually frozen in time. It would take you so long to walk to the front of the ship that they'd measure your speed as a mere .9999999999c. This is how the two frames are reconcilable.
 

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