I am older than she is/than her...

[sevensages]

On my thread, "Why do we spend so little time learning grammar in college", I implied in the OP that "I am older than she is" is correct grammar, and I said that "I am older than her" is bad grammar. On post #74, @difalcojr asserted that "The phrase 'I am older than her' is grammatically correct in English." I now think that difalcojr is correct, but I am not 100% sure.

Then on post #78, @martinbn wrote: "I think that the accusative form is correct. If you insist on the nominative, you need a verb. So I would say that 'I am older than her' and 'I am older than she is' are both correct, but 'I am older than she' is not."

I researched this in the English grammar textbook Warriner's English Grammar and Composition a few hours ago. In Warriner's English Grammar and Composition, Warriner lists the following four rules to determine what case to list a pronoun in:
rule 1# The subject of a verb is in the nominative case.
rule 2# A predicate nominative is in the nominative case.
rule 3# The object of a verb is in the objective case.
rule 4# The object of a preposition is in the objective case.

Obviously, rule #1 "The subject of a verb is in the nominative case" is irrelevant to this discussion of the correct case of the predicate pronoun in the sentence "I am older than she is" because the predicate pronoun is not in the subject of the sentence.

Warriner does not mention the accusative case at all in his textbook. I had never heard of the accusative case before I created this thread. Before I created my "Why do we spend so little time learning grammar in college" thread, I thought that "I am older than she is" was correct because Warriner wrote that "A predicate nominative is in the nominative case" (159). Warriner wrote the following: "A predicate nominative is a noun or pronoun in the predicate that refers to the same thing as the subject of the sentence. For the present purpose, think of a predicate nominative as any pronoun that follows a form of the verb 'be'."

Then Warriner had a table like this:

Edited to add: PhysicsForums won't keeps altering the alignment of the spacing so I cannot line up the tables like it is in the book. So I will put one table on top of the other.

Common forms of be
Line 1: am
Line 2: is, are
Line 3: was, were

Predicate Nominative
Line 1: I
Line 2: He
Line 3: she

​

Warriner listed the word "am" as a common form of the verb "be". So I thought that in the sentence "I am older than she is", the word "am" is a form of the verb be. So I thought that the predicate pronoun was a predicate nominative because the predicate pronoun followed the word "am". The problem in my opinion is that in the sentence "I am older than she is", the word "she" does not refer to the same thing as the subject of the sentence. In the sentence "I am older than she is", "she" is not the same thing as "I".

Then Warriner wrote that "The object of a verb is in the objective case." Warriner wrote that "The object of a verb answers the question 'What?' or 'Whom?' after an action verb." The sentence "I am older than she is" does not have an action verb. Instead, the verb in the sentence "I am older than she is" is a verb that expresses a condition. So I don't think "rule #3 The Object of a verb is in the objective case" applies for this topic.

I think that "rule #4 The object of a preposition is in the objective case" might apply here. In the sentence "I am older than she is", if the word "than" is a preposition, then rule #4 would dictate that the predicate pronoun should be in the objective case. Warriner defines a preposition in the following way: "A preposition is a word used to show the relation of a noun or pronoun to some word in the sentence." I think it is arguable that in the sentence "I am older than she is", the word than is a word used to show the relation of the pronoun "she" to the word "older".

If you think that "I am older than she is" is grammatically correct, then I suppose you have to consider the word "than" to be a conjunction. Warriner does list the word "than" as a subordinating conjunction. In a list of commonly used prepositions, Warriner does NOT list the word "than".

What is the correct grammar for the sentence "I am older than she is"?

P.S. I will ping @phinds since he says that he is a grammar Nazi.

 

[martinbn]

But your example wasn't "I am older than she is", it was "I am older than she". I don't think anyone disputes that the first one is correct. The question was about "I am older than she" or "I am older than her".

Obviously, rule #1 "The subject of a verb is in the nominative case" is irrelevant to this discussion of the correct case of the predicate pronoun in the sentence "I am older than she is" because the predicate pronoun is not in the subject of the sentence.

I don't understand this part. The pronoun "she" is the subject of the independent clause "she is". Notice that the rule says the subject of the verb, and here she definitely is the subject of the verb. You phrased it as the subject of the sentence, not the rule. And a sentence can have more than one independent clause each having a subject and a verb.

 

[martinbn]

I think that "rule #4 The object of a preposition is in the objective case" might apply here. In the sentence "I am older than she is", if the word "than" is a preposition, then rule #4 would dictate that the predicate pronoun should be in the objective case. Warriner defines a preposition in the following way: "A preposition is a word used to show the relation of a noun or pronoun to some word in the sentence." I think it is arguable that in the sentence "I am older than she is", the word than is a word used to show the relation of the pronoun "she" to the word "older".

If you think that "I am older than she is" is grammatically correct, then I suppose you have to consider the word "than" to be a conjunction. Warriner does list the word "than" as a subordinating conjunction. In a list of commonly used prepositions, Warriner does NOT list the word "than".

I think that this rule applies and makes the sentence "I am older than her", with "than" a proposition, correct. Many sources list "than" as both a proposition and a conjunction.

 

[martinbn]

What is the correct grammar for the sentence "I am older than she is"?

Well, I don't think grammar is written on stone tablets, it changes all the time. The question probably should have a date to it, and the answer might depend on that. As I said before to me the sentence "I am older than she" sounds strange. But then again English is not my fist language.

 

[sevensages]

But your example wasn't "I am older than she is", it was "I am older than she". I don't think anyone disputes that the first one is correct.

I now dispute that the first one is correct.

The question was about "I am older than she" or "I am older than her".

The question IS about "I am older than she is" or "I am older than her."

I don't understand this part. The pronoun "she" is the subject of the independent clause "she is". Notice that the rule says the subject of the verb, and here she definitely is the subject of the verb. You phrased it as the subject of the sentence, not the rule. And a sentence can have more than one independent clause each having a subject and a verb.

No. In the sentence, "I am older than she is", the word "she" is not the subject of the verb. The subject of the verb is the word "I". In the sentence "I am older than she is", the word "she" is part of the predicate of the sentence.

 

[martinbn]

No. In the sentence, "I am older than she is", the word "she" is not the subject of the verb. The subject of the verb is the word "I". In the sentence "I am older than she is", the word "she" is part of the predicate of the sentence.

Well, I am well out of my depth here, but the way I remember things from school the sentence "I am older than she is" has two independent clauses "I am older" and "she is", each has a verb, "i" and "she" respectively and a verb in both case the verb to be.

 

[martinbn]

AI agrees with me (makes me less certain now)

The sentence "I am older than she is" contains two independent clauses: "I am older" and "she is older". The clause "she is older" is an elliptical clause, meaning the verb "is" is understood even when omitted, making the full sentence "I am older than she is" grammatically correct.

• I am older: This is an independent clause because it contains a subject ("I") and a verb ("am") and expresses a complete thought.
• she is older: This is the second independent clause. It is understood to be "she is older" because the structure of the sentence implies a comparison between two complete thoughts.
• Than: In this sentence, "than" functions as a conjunction introducing a subordinate clause, which compares two things.

 

[sevensages]

Well, I am well out of my depth here, but the way I remember things from school the sentence "I am older than she is" has two independent clauses "I am older" and "she is", each has a verb, "i" and "she" respectively and a verb in both case the verb to be.

I forgot that there are two independent clauses in the sentence "I am older than she is". I am totally confused. Perhaps both "I am older than she is" and "I am older than her" are correct. They cannot both be wrong.

 

[martinbn]

I forgot that there are two independent clauses in the sentence "I am older than she is". I am totally confused. Perhaps both "I am older than she is" and "I am older than her" are correct. They cannot both be wrong.

Are you a native English speaker? If yes, then what you gut feeling tells you is right is probably right.

 

[sevensages]

Are you a native English speaker? If yes, then what you gut feeling tells you is right is probably right.

Yes; I am a native English speaker. Well, before I ever researched this specific question, I would always say "I am older than her."

 

[Baluncore]

I ignore grammar, so I say and write what sounds correct from experience.

English is my first language, but English grammar was taught to me by my Swedish mother. She would tell me, that when I refer to another in a sentence, they should be named first, to show respect. If I said, "I am older than her", my mother would tell me to say, "She is younger than I", except that, where her name is known, "she" is unacceptable, because "she is the cat's mother".
https://grammarphobia.com/blog/2011/04/cats-mother.html

 

[PeroK]

Prepositions generally take the objective pronoun. To her, for her, from her, than her ...
Than can be also be used as a conjunction. This is what is happening here. E.g.

He is richer than [conjunction] she will ever be.
He is richer than [conjunction] she [elliptical phrase]
He is richer than [preposition] her [objective pronoun]

Formally, than is only a conjunction and not a preposition. Although, its use as a preposition is widespread. For example, different from (this is what I say) is now more commonly (especially in the US) different than.

 

[sevensages]

The moderator Alan at EnglishClub.com knows more about English grammar than anyone on Earth. I asked Alan about this at EnglishClub.com. If anyone wants to see the actual thread at EnglishClub.com, the thread is at the subforum Grammar Help, and the thread is titled "I am older than she/ than her". My user name at EnglishClub.com is grammarian.

Alan told me that "I am older than her" is nonstandard in formal writing. That means that "I am older than her" is grammatically incorrect. Alan said that there is no historical basis to consider the word "than" as anything other than a conjunction.

In the OP of my "Why do we spend so little time learning English grammar in college" thread, I said that "I am older than her" is grammatically incorrect. Then in the OP of this thread, I changed my position and said that "I am older than her" is grammatically correct. I was right about "I am older than her" in the OP of my "Why do we spend so little time learning English grammar in college" thread, and I was wrong about "I am older than her" in the OP of this thread.

I changed my vote on the poll in the OP.

 

[sevensages]

Prepositions generally take the objective pronoun. To her, for her, from her, than her ...
Than can be also be used as a conjunction. This is what is happening here. E.g.

He is richer than [conjunction] she will ever be.
He is richer than [conjunction] she [elliptical phrase]
He is richer than [preposition] her [objective pronoun]

Formally, than is only a conjunction and not a preposition. Although, its use as a preposition is widespread. For example, different from (this is what I say) is now more commonly (especially in the US) different than.

Yeah that is what Alan at EnglishClub.com said about than. You are correct.

 

[PeroK]

Alan told me that "I am older than her" is nonstandard in formal writing. That means that "I am older than her" is grammatically incorrect.

There's a difference between being informal and wrong.

Alan said that there is no historical basis to consider the word "than" as anything other than a conjunction.

Language isn't a historical relic. We must allow the possibility for usage to change over time.

Just yesterday I used the phrase "get ye gone", which my friend had never heard. The funny thing is that Google AI gave, IMO, a perfect summary of the modern usage of that phrase as "for humorous or dramatic effect"!

 

[sevensages]

There's a difference between being informal and wrong.

The word ain't is informal. Double negatives like "We don't have no money" are informal. When grammarians say that a sentence is nonstandard in formal English, the grammarians basically mean that the sentence has bad grammar. With your standard, nothing would be wrong.

 

[PeroK]

When grammarians say that a sentence is nonstandard in formal English, the grammarians basically mean that the sentence has bad grammar.

Language belongs to all of us. It's not defined by "grammarians". It's very different from mathematics, where things are more clearly right and wrong. There is no obligation on us to use standard English in all cases. In fact, labelling [sic] non-standard English as "wrong" or "bad" could be seen as something of a class issue in Britain.

With your standard, nothing would be wrong.

I don't know what gives you that idea.

 

[sevensages]

Language belongs to all of us. It's not defined by "grammarians". It's very different from mathematics, where things are more clearly right and wrong. There is no obligation on us to use standard English in all cases. In fact, labelling [sic] non-standard English as "wrong" or "bad" could be seen as something of a class issue in Britain.


I don't know what gives you that idea.

By your standard, you can just say anything that I bad grammar is not wrong because it is informal.

For instance, by your standard, you can say that the sentence "She don't know" is not grammatically incorrect because it is informal.

 

[symbolipoint]

On my thread, "Why do we spend so little time learning grammar in college", I implied in the OP that "I am older than she is" is correct grammar, and I said that "I am older than her" is bad grammar. On post #74, @difalcojr asserted that "The phrase 'I am older than her' is grammatically correct in English." I now think that difalcojr is correct, but I am not 100% sure.

I fully believe that both are correct. Now, time for me to read on....

 

[symbolipoint]

I researched this in the English grammar textbook Warriner's English Grammar and Composition a few hours ago. In Warriner's English Grammar and Composition, Warriner lists the following four rules to determine what case to list a pronoun in:
rule 1# The subject of a verb is in the nominative case.
rule 2# A predicate nominative is in the nominative case.
rule 3# The object of a verb is in the objective case.
rule 4# The object of a preposition is in the objective case.

Is, or To Be, is a linking verb!

 

[symbolipoint]

I ignore grammar, so I say and write what sounds correct from experience.

English is my first language, but English grammar was taught to me by my Swedish mother. She would tell me, that when I refer to another in a sentence, they should be named first, to show respect. If I said, "I am older than her", my mother would tell me to say, "She is younger than I", except that, where her name is known, "she" is unacceptable, because "she is the cat's mother".
https://grammarphobia.com/blog/2011/04/cats-mother.html

Seemingly too extreme.

 

[symbolipoint]

Language isn't a historical relic. We must allow the possibility for usage to change over time.

Yes, that!

 

[symbolipoint]

............................, and then there is "vernacular."


What is accepted as correct in formal written English is whatever is taught as Standard English for whatever the governing region wants being used. "Ain't" is a good and well enough understood word, but we do not want to use it in formal written English. "A lot of,...", is another one (a phrase) which we do not want to use in standard or formal written English.