I love math but I'm not that smart. I don't know what to do

[samh]

I'm sort of in a bad dilemma right now and need some advice. I'm a CS major and I've slowly grown to like math more and more and coding and the usual CS stuff less and less. In short, math has become my new passion and I'm thinking of changing my major even though I'm 2.5 years into my CS degree (and I do like CS).

Here's my problem: I love math, but I'm not good at it. I like math so much now. I think about it and do it all the time; I'm totally fascinated by it! I LOVE IT! But I just don't feel I was born a math person. What I mean is I'm just not that smart. I can do the exercises in my math books but that's only because we're given the general form of the solutions in the chapter introductions, you know what I mean?

I'm sure I'm smart enough to get a math degree if I went for it, but I'm worried that if I were to try and get a job I wouldn't be able to because as I said earlier I'm just not that smart. I really don't want to live with financial instability for the rest of my life and I don't want to be broke all the time. There are so many careers out there for CS grads, and I'm good at CS...but I like math so much more now.

I know it's important to follow your passions and do what you love, but what should I do? Is there anyone here that's been in a situation like mine?

 

[Apost8]

Maybe think about double-majoring? It might take an additional year, but that really isn't a big deal. Besides, I think the combination of the two majors would look great on either a resume or a grad school application.

 

[pivoxa15]

I use to have the same dilemma as you but followed by passion and dream and switched out of commerce. The worst case scenario is for you and I to end up with a permanant tutoring job in a Uni. The pay isn't big but should sustain you for basic living. And a true mathematician shouldn't go for the money any way and shouldn't have the time to spend money because they should be too engrossed in their work. But I believe if you love it enough, you will spend lots of time on it which means you will become good at it eventually.

 

[theperthvan]

If you like it, do it. And maybe you will come smarter at it or something. Don't smoke dope would help.

 

[DaveC426913]

Bah! How do you know you're not smart??

Get out there and do what you love!

 

[JasonRox]

Alright, I guess I'm the one who has to burst the bubble. If you aren't smart, then don't go in math. You'll waste everyone's time. If you think you're not smart, then you probably aren't smart. Again, don't waste anyone's time. Dumb people are just dumb.

So, how much of that did you think was real? HAHA! None of it. Yeah, you sound like you got whatever it takes to join the math world. Math is my passion too, so I know for a fact that you will have a blast if you love it too.

 

[complexPHILOSOPHY]

Go talk to a maths advisor and explain your situation. Ask your maths professors if they think you would make a good math major.

Also, if you feel you aren't "smart" enough to really understand math, then you should devote more time to developing an understanding of it. If you can't figure out how to construct this on your own, go talk with some math teachers, as I am sure they can help structure your studying.

 

[proton]

how can you know for sure you're not good at math? I'm pretty sure that you can complete the math major program successfully as long as you work really hard even if you don't have a really high IQ. What's the highest level math you've taken?

 

[complexPHILOSOPHY]

I am still not satisfied with the definition of IQ. I have yet to see any real empirical evidence of it's significance. Especially if you consider the cognitivist approach to intelligence, which has more empirical evidence.

As far as I can tell, the IQ is at best, an indicator of how well you will do in a North American school setting (assuming you take a North American IQ test).

What one person considers an 'aspect of intelligence' another might not consider. For instance, knowing differential geometry isn't going to help you survive any better in the jungles of the amazon -- instead, you will need survival intelligence. So in this case, having a 'high iq' would make you pretty much a useless idiot.

I hate the phrase 'intelligence quotient'.

 

[DaveC426913]

Don't look for external validation. You don't need a professor or an IQ test or forum members to give you permission. (More importantly, you don't any of need them putting you off).

If you really enjoy it, your "smarts" will take care of itself.

 

[mattmns]

I don't consider myself smart, and I am nearly done with all of my math classes for my math major. In my opinion the only thing you need to have is a good work ethic. I like the idea that someone already suggested of doing a double major.

 

[andytoh]

Are you confident enough to know that you could get a profession that will involve math and leave you happy in the career? If not, you might be happier in a career in CS, and just do math as a hobby.

 

[tylerp]

Look at it this way: if you don't pursue a degree in Math, you are always going to look back and regret it and wonder what would of happened if you would of chosen that path instead

 

[JoshHolloway]

If I were you I would double major. Math is fun, and if you like it that is great. But if you are also worried about having a good job in the future, then I would say don't drop the CS major. But if you like math, then deffinetely go for both. As long as you or your family can afford the extra time it takes for you to go to school to do it, then why not. I'm still in school though, so I really don't know what I am talking about though.

 

[AsianSensationK]

I kind of had the same situation, except I've got real proof I wasn't a "math person." I was a major in philosophy, planning to go to law school, and then decided to add math as a concentration.

The trouble was when I added math as a major, I was about a year and half removed from my last math course multivariable calc, tried to take linear algebra, and failed miserably. Every academic advisor I talked to advised against continuing, but I still managed. Some of that was because math was hyped up to be tougher than in should be. I received better advice from the math profs, and decided to continue.

In all honesty, getting "smart" at math involved putting in a lot more study time at the library, and just having a little confidence that I could be good at it. Eventually, I pulled my GPA out of the toilet, getting B's and A's in the concentration courses. The world didn't end even though I tried and failed the first time.

If you like math, you ought to try and add it as a concentration. Just watch out for some of the pure math courses. If you haven't had a course in symbolic logic yet, take one. It'll help.

 

[Crosson]

except I've got real proof I wasn't a "math person."

It sounds like you didn't respond well to drills-based calculus and algebra courses. I am sad when people are discouraged from math by these courses, since I do not think they are characteristic of what math is about.

See my thread "Arithmetic = Math" in the General Math forum.

 

[AsianSensationK]

except I've got real proof I wasn't a "math person."

It sounds like you didn't respond well to drills-based calculus and algebra courses. I am sad when people are discouraged from math by these courses, since I do not think they are characteristic of what math is about.

See my thread "Arithmetic = Math" in the General Math forum.

Actually, it was kind of the opposite. At my university, Linear Algebra is the first place you get exposed to the concept of proofs, theorems, and logic. I hadn't seen stuff like proof by induction, linear transformations, or vector spaces before, and couldn't handle the transition to that kind of thinking so well. I eventually got over that wall with a little hard work.

In response to the OP, you should throw away this idea that there are math people and non-math people. Everyone can do math. It's just that some people might take more time than others to get good at it. If you like math, the only thing that should influence your decision whether or not to add it as a concentration are financial constraints, and time constraints. If you switch without properly weighing all of the economic considerations involved, you might wind up failing a course like I did.

Aside from that, I've found a lot more people seem interested in you career-wise if you've studied any of the sciences and have a strong math background. It's even better if you can handle the basic concepts of accounting and finance. If you're interested in mathematics, you might also consider focusing a little on the mathematics of finance, probability, linear algebra, Diff Eq, etc. That is, if you're worried about career opportunities. If you're already well-versed in computer science, then you'll have a lot of marketable skills when you start hunting for a career.

 

[americanforest]

OK, I was reading the OP's first post and could picture myself saying the exact same thing. I was a Computer Engineering major for my freshman year and was pretty decent at it, but never excited about getting to code and was never really eager to get more involved then my classes forced me to. Second semester freshman year, I was digging through the university library and came upon some dusty Physics books. I'd taken Advanced Placement Physics in High School but did very poorly and thought that I had given up on Physics, because I just figured I wasn't "smart" enough. It's exactly what you said.

So all Summer after my freshman year I was studying Physics on my own, whatever I could get my hands on. It gave me chills to know that if I kept it up I would be able to wrap my head around the whole Universe. First semester Sophmore year, I took my first University Physics class. Coincidentally, it was taught by a fantastic and inspirational professor. I knew that Physics was my inspiration and saw myself losing interest in Computer Engineering.

So, now I was in the same dillema as you. I still thought I would never make it as a Physicist because I wasn't "smart" enough. But I set my mind to it and knew I would never forgive myself if I didn't switch. So I switched and now whenever I see

Major: Physics

on my transcript it gives me a real boost, because it reminds me that now I really have the chance to do what I love.

So how do I deal with the not "smart" situation? Well, my IQ, which is the only intelligence indicator I can think of, is a very average 135ish and I never really saw myself as a math wiz so I was a bit worried at first. However, I resolved that I would do whatever it took to be a successful Physicist, even if it meant working harder and practicing more than others. I still think some people are naturally more intelligent than others, but I think through hard work and dedication, you can still be successful at any level.

I don't know about Math but I always remember that great Physicists like Ernest Rutherford were quite terrible at Mathematics and were not generally all that brilliant and much of their success came from their power of will.

So, In conclusion. I switched majors, and I'm very happy with my decision. If you love math, I suggest you do the same. Any initial adversities will just make you a better Mathematician in the end, when you overcome them.

 

[complexPHILOSOPHY]

Why is there such emphasis put on IQ tests? What empirical evidence is there to suggest that an IQ test is demonstrative proof of whether or not someone qualifies as a 'genius'.

I seriously doubt IQ tests are capable of determining someone's aptitude for approaching mathematics creatively, or having an intuitive feel for the universe.

I just think if you want to do something and put enough effort into it, you will be fine and stop worrying about IQ tests.

 

[dontdisturbmycircles]

I would guess that after taking lots of math courses that a person's IQ score would go up, since they gain logic skills, which are heavily tested in IQ tests.

 

[quasar_4]

I'm also in a bit of the same boat. I don't necessarily want a degree, but I want to do theoretical physics, and I need so much math for it. Problem is, I was never able to beat the average. Actually, I had a number of math classes in which I was always the worst student. I study hard, but math just doesn't seem to click with my brain the same way as other people get it... I don't know if I'm crazy to try doing something I'm not naturally good at, or braver.

I mean, the real question is -- should we pursue a career because it's something we're talented at, and we'll do very well/make meaningful contributions? or, should we pursue the thing we're more passionate about, even though not good at it? I just fear that if I take the latter path, I'll never be good enough to make a meaningful contribution to my field.

 

[verty]

I mean, the real question is -- should we pursue a career because it's something we're talented at, and we'll do very well/make meaningful contributions? or, should we pursue the thing we're more passionate about

And the answer to that is to discover why you are passionate about what you are passionate about.

 

[flybyme]

And the answer to that is to discover why you are passionate about what you are passionate about.

Which can take a whole life time. :-)

 

[samh]

Thanks for the inciteful comments everyone.

I'm going to try and stick it out with CS for a little while longer and see how things go, and continue thinking this over. The double major sounds like a great idea, but I don't think it's going to happen. I think it would be cool if I could maybe keep up with CS and minor in math, then later specialize in theoretical CS (which itself is a bunch of math ). Or, because the parts of CS I like are those that involve math, maybe I could major in math and minor in CS? That sounds like fun too and was actually recommended to me by a math professor. That way I could take all the fun math courses and pick and choose which CS courses I take, skipping the boring ones like software engineering.

I think I may also talk this over with a math professor I know. He might have some advice for me. He knows me pretty well and he's the one that got me interested in math in the first place so seeing him may help me out.

BTW americanforest, a 135 IQ isn't average at all. It's two standard deviations above it (plus 5). You're a smart guy if that's your real IQ. I would have huge self confidence if that was me.

 

[complexPHILOSOPHY]

This is in regards to the IQ, so skip over if you are not interested:

Aside from the fact that I have never seen any empirical evidence which extensively proves the correlation between intelligence (perhaps genius) and the intelligence quotient, I only have one anecdotal experience involving a person with a genius IQ. In high school during wrestling season, I wasn’t allowed to eat during the week (I had to maintain a strict weight for my weight class) so instead of sitting with my usual friends, I would hang out with this dude Eric who was considered a genius. He was our Valedictorian, had either a perfect or near perfect score on his SAT and ended up going to some Ivy League school for pre-med. The dude was taking classes at a local university when he was in 10th grade. I, on the other hand, was ranked in the BOTTOM 10 of my ENTIRE class, and graduated high school with a cumulative GPA of 1.2, so academically, I looked like a retard. However, even with his genius IQ and perfect SATs he had the most difficult time having conversations with me about philosophy. I would discuss Hume, Kant, Nietzsche, Hegal and some other pretty abstract but really brilliant philosophers. He had a ridiculous memory (which I am sure had a lot to do with his intelligence) and could recall word for word, what he had read in for instance, Hume’s “Enquiry concerning Human Understanding”, however, could never construct a logical argument in favor of or against anything that he had read philosophically. We would often times, exchange our critiques of a particular philosophy and mine would completely go over his head, while his seemed more-or-less a recounting of what he had read. This kid was a genius and I am an idiot but I was able to consistently think many levels above him when it came to philosophy and he was always baffled by his inability to transcend whatever barrier he had.

My point is basically that I think people need to stop paying attention to IQ’s and just work hard. Your IQ isn’t going to change much (if it even changes at all), however, your ability to understand and apply information will. While an IQ might represent a person’s ease in learning in a particular academic system, I don’t think it necessarily represents a person’s critical/analytical thinking skills, knowledge, or passion to learn.

I could be wrong.

 

[verty]

This kid was a genius and I am an idiot but I was able to consistently think many levels above him when it came to philosophy and he was always baffled by his inability to transcend whatever barrier he had.

With his memory, he wouldn't have needed to structure and organise the information that he learned, whereas you needed to and did. If he had needed to, I'm sure he would have done that too, but it's a fact about nature that need drives progress.

 

[americanforest]

BTW americanforest, a 135 IQ isn't average at all. It's two standard deviations above it (plus 5). You're a smart guy if that's your real IQ. I would have huge self confidence if that was me.

If I was so smart, I probably should have know that already .

I took a couple of tests over http://www.highiqsociety.org/" and out of three tests that was my average,* but it's like cP said, IQ isn't really the issue. There are some concepts in Physics that I find hard to pick up when they click with other students.

*Can anybody tell me if this site is the real deal or just some crap as far as authentic IQ testing goes, just out of curiosity?

 

[tehno]

What one person considers an 'aspect of intelligence' another might not consider. For instance, knowing differential geometry isn't going to help you survive any better in the jungles of the amazon -- instead, you will need survival intelligence. So in this case, having a 'high iq' would make you pretty much a useless idiot.

Especially in math,there were many cases of inividuals classified in term of general 'IQ intelligence' almost as idiots.However,they have shown extraordinary deep reasoning and creativity in various fields of math.
IQ is an overrated thing.Intelligent people know that.

 

[complexPHILOSOPHY]

Especially in math,there were many cases of inividuals classified in term of general 'IQ intelligence' almost as idiots.However,they have shown extraordinary deep reasoning and creativity in various fields of math.
IQ is an overrated thing.Intelligent people know that.

Unfortunately, though, it seems that some intelligent people are entrapt into believing that they must have a certain IQ to be successful in their particular field, which I think can discourage some people.

Someone in this thread mentioned Feynman's IQ being somewhere around 125 and we all know how much of a retarded idiot that guy was!

Down with psychometric testing! :P

 

[tehno]

Down with psychometric testing! :P

Silently and in confidence ,I agree with you.

EDIT:Gosh,I hope my fiancee doesn't read this...

 

[JasonRox]

Unfortunately, though, it seems that some intelligent people are entrapt into believing that they must have a certain IQ to be successful in their particular field, which I think can discourage some people.

Someone in this thread mentioned Feynman's IQ being somewhere around 125 and we all know how much of a retarded idiot that guy was!

Down with psychometric testing! :P

No offence, but we didn't learn anything new. Everything you said has been repeated a billion times, and lots of PF members are careless about IQ scores.

The reason IQ scores are brought up is because it is a measure of something, and that something we can compare. That's it. Just like comparing math test scores with other students. It's just to compare and give us a ball park answer at who is better at math.

That's all.

 

[complexPHILOSOPHY]

No offence, but we didn't learn anything new. Everything you said has been repeated a billion times, and lots of PF members are careless about IQ scores.

No offence was taken, I just didn't realize that I have to be teaching you something new, in order to post. I was just having a casual conversation with tehno, which I apologize for homie! I will be cognizant of that in the future. I am coming from a less regulated forum to here, so I honestly do apologize for not realizing the rigid posting rules.

The reason IQ scores are brought up is because it is a measure of something, and that something we can compare. That's it.

Yes, however, in reference specifically to psychometric testing, correlation != causation and I have not been presented with strong empirical evidence suggesting any relationships between one's intelligence and their intelligence quotient, especially considering the cognitive approach. It's not as if I made the claim completely unsupported but if you require more 'evidence' or what I perceive to be 'evidence' opposing this relationship, I will present it. I am not suggesting that my perspective is necessarily correct, however, I see no reason why my opinion isn't valid.

Just like comparing math test scores with other students. It's just to compare and give us a ball park answer at who is better at math.

Did you mean that math scores approximate who is better at math, or that IQ tests approximate who is better at math?

 

[DaveC426913]

*Can anybody tell me if this site is the real deal or just some crap as far as authentic IQ testing goes, just out of curiosity?

Anything you find on the web will likely be just a teaser really, they're there to draw you in and to see if you should bother pursuing it. A proper IQ test that gave an accurate measure will be much better controlled - i.e. on-site. But those tests online are, no doubt about that.


On the eCMA I got 120. I would have gotten higher in a more controlled setting. I did it again and got 144. Only some of that increase is due to similar questions. Much of it is due to understanding the instructions better. This kind of error would be eliminated in a controlled test.

Then I did the TA3 (their "hardest" test) and scored 132.

 

[nesp]

If you're concerned with monetary considerations I would remain in CS because it's more marketable and there are more jobs than in mathematics. But don't let the fact that you are not "good in math" keep you from taking math courses as a minor. Mathematics actually becomes easier as you get more mature in the subject, and keep seeing the same constructs repeatedly.