I would like to argue about .999

  • Thread starter Thread starter Curd
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  • #51
Exactly, Halls. I admit that I don't know much about physics, but you don't see me saying things like "Einstein was wrong" or "There is no gravity"
I'm always getting very annoyed by people who don't understand mathematics and then say that all mathematicians don't know what they're doing, and exclaim that they can do it much better.

I don't mind people asking questions if they are willing to learn. But the OP doesn't seem to be like this. It appears that he already made his mind up. This makes me quite sad...
 
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  • #52
Curd, did you even read my post? It doesn't look like you did. You still seem to think that the statement "0.999...=1" means something like "if you add 9/100 to 9/10, and then add 9/1000 to the result of that, add 9/10000 to the result of that, and so on forever, the result will be 1". It doesn't! It means something very different and until you understand what that is, there's no way you will be able to understand this.
 
  • #53
micromass said:
No, I don't see how that could possibly follow from what I've said...

And do you care to answer my two questions? It would enhance the discussion a great deal...

first off, i haven't read all your posts as i have other things to do. second off i will reply to them when i get time. third off i will probably wait to continue this argument once I've gotten back into my calculus book.

but the main point I'm making is that if 9's can go on for infinity after a decimal, then obviously there is an infinite space after the decimal and obviously if they can continue on forever they would necessarily have to be incapable of achieving 1 otherwise the infinite space that allows that expansion would have to be finite. Of course, this gets us into an argument about the meaning of infinity. if a space is infinitely large can it ever be filled. you may be right, perhaps it could be filled with another infinity.


I'll get back to this later when i have more time to read the calculus stuff.
 
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  • #54
Curd said:
but the main point I'm making is that if 9's can go on for infinity after a decimal, then obviously there is an infinite space after the decimal
:confused: Are you talking about the space occupied by the numbers if we try to write them all out? What makes you think this has anything to do with mathematics? :confused:

The meaning of "0.999..." is very different from anything that involves reserving "space" for each of the decimals.

Curd said:
Of course, this gets us into an argument about the meaning of infinity. if a space is infinitely large can it ever be filled. you may be right, perhaps it could be filled with another infinity.
This problem isn't about "filling" anything.

Curd said:
I'll get back to this later when i have more time to read the calculus stuff.
Make sure you understand the definition of the limit of a sequence. (The one I included at the end of post #35). It's the key to this whole thing. You may need to consult a calculus book to see more examples that can help you understand this definition, but everything you need to know about this particular problem is included in post #35.

Edit: After reading your comments again, I think it's clear that even though you've been saying repeatedly that you're talking about infinitely many decimals, you're actually not. You're making observations about 0.999...9 (with a finite number of nines), and then jumping to incorrect conclusions about 0.999... (with infinitely many nines).
 
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  • #55
A decimal numeral has places. There's the one's place. Next to that on the left, there's the ten's place, then the hundred's place, and so on. On the other side (crossing the decimal point), there's the tenth's place, the hundredth's place, and so forth.

The decimal places are indexed by integers:
...
2 = hundreds
1 = tens
0 = ones
-1 = tenths
-2 = hundredths
...​


To state a decimal numeral, you have to say what digit is in every place. A common shorthand is to just write out a sequence of digits with a decimal point, such as
47.16​
which conventionally means there's a 4 in the tens' place, a 7 in the one's place, a 1 in the tenth's place, a 6 in the hundredth's place, and a 0 in every other place.


When a mathematician (or scientist or engineer or ...) writes 0.999..., they mean the numeral that has a 9 in every negatively indexed place (i.e. every place to the right of the decimal point), and a 0 in every other place.



Aside: in the use of decimals to name real numbers, the numerals allowed are precisely those that have repeating zeroes on the left. While ...999.000... is a decimal numeral, specifically the one with a 0 in every negatively indexed place and a 9 in the other places, it does not name a real number. (the term "decimal numeral" is often used so as to exclude numerals like this that do not have repeating zeroes on the left)
 
  • #56
Fredrik said:
:confused: Are you talking about the space occupied by the numbers if we try to write them all out? What makes you think this has anything to do with mathematics? :confused:

The meaning of "0.999..." is very different from anything that involves reserving "space" for each of the decimals.


This problem isn't about "filling" anything.


Make sure you understand the definition of the limit of a sequence. (The one I included at the end of post #35). It's the key to this whole thing. You may need to consult a calculus book to see more examples that can help you understand this definition, but everything you need to know about this particular problem is included in post #35.

Edit: After reading your comments again, I think it's clear that even though you've been saying repeatedly that you're talking about infinitely many decimals, you're actually not. You're making observations about 0.999...9 (with a finite number of nines), and then jumping to incorrect conclusions about 0.999... (with infinitely many nines).

Alright, here's my view on the subject.

1) You don't know how to communicate

2) the easiest way to say that .999... equals one is to say that the space after the decimal is infinite in size but is being filled with and infinite amount of 9's therefore the requirement needed for it to be "bumped" up to 1 is met. Also, if 1/9 equals .111... then 1/1 should equal .999... it's the same concept but with a different appearance.


3) if the reaction to my original assertion had been strictly productive instead of egotistical then this thread may well have never occurred which links us back to the 1st item on this list. you need to learn to communicate more concisely and without an attitude (you being certain members that have responded).



and does not the ... mean the 9's continue on into infinity?

also, are there any cases where time can somehow be applied to this idea of ... so that at a certain point you have not actually reached 1?
 
  • #57
Curd said:
Alright, here's my view on the subject.

1) You don't know how to communicate

2) the easiest way to say that .999... equals one is to say that the space after the decimal is infinite in size but is being filled with and infinite amount of 9's therefore the requirement needed for it to be "bumped" up to 1 is met. Also, if 1/9 equals .111... then 1/1 should equal .999... it's the same concept but with a different appearance.


3) if the reaction to my original assertion had been strictly productive instead of egotistical then this thread may well have never occurred which links us back to the 1st item on this list. you need to learn to communicate more concisely and without an attitude (you being certain members that have responded).



and does not the ... mean the 9's continue on into infinity?

also, are there any cases where time can somehow be applied to this idea of ... so that at a certain point you have not actually reached 1?

We are unable to communicate?? Really?? Of everybody who answered of this thread, I've understood them all very well! Especially Frederik, who made a very nice post about in what framework we should see 1=0.999...
I'm sorry to say, but the only one I've never understood was your posts. I've asked you several questions to clarify, but I've never got an answer. I think many people are confused about your posts...

All we were trying to do is to show you why 1=0.999... is true. In my opinion, it's not us who is unable to communicate. And calling us egoistical is way over the line.
 
  • #58
Curd said:
in such cases those decimals are only very precise approximations of the actual fraction. what I'm saying is that decimals can not always perfectly represent a fraction which is why ... has been added to some of them.
But the decimal .333... is also a decimal number, the ellipses "..." is just shorthand notation for the infinite string that constitutes this decimal number. Once you are talking of an infinite string of 3's there is no sense in asking of when does the sum reach 1/3 since it has by then reach 1/3. Any additional 3 in the string would be only adding a zero to the sum since n/[infinity] where n is a finite number = 0. That is a property of infinity. I see what you are saying but as long as you are talking in terms of decimal places of an infinite string any "additional decimal places" would effectively merely be adding zero to the sum. Also in reality you can not put a number on the number of decimal places to infinity or ever reach it to add to it. If you could you wouldn't be at infinity.
Curd said:
and as for your argument that there is a trap. 1-.999... = 1-.999... since there is no other way to write it that i know of. in words it equals an infinitely and increasingly small space between 1 and .999... although that space never does reach 0 because it is forever in the process of trying to reach zero without actually achieving it.


if this were not true then .999... could not go on for infinity as you (seem to) suggest it does. if it goes on for infinity then there must be the potential for an infinite space between .999... and 1 and ergo .999... can go on for infinity without reaching one. otherwise you have contradicted the concept of infinity.
I think I now see where you are coming from. In effect you may be right to say that the limit cannot be reached in reality because concept of ever reaching infinity is not reality. But when we put ellipses at the end of a decimal string we are invoking the concept of a decimal string that is indeed infinite contary to reality. This decimal string is most often precisely defined and in the case of .999... is precisely equal to 1.
 
  • #59
Curd said:
Alright, here's my view on the subject.

1) You don't know how to communicate
Wow, as a (mostly) spectator in this thread, I find this claim quite funny. The guys on the forum have given several intuitive reasons to understand the claim and one solid proof. I don't see any bad communication on their part.

Curd said:
2) the easiest way to say that .999... equals one is to say that the space after the decimal is infinite in size but is being filled with and infinite amount of 9's therefore the requirement needed for it to be "bumped" up to 1 is met. Also, if 1/9 equals .111... then 1/1 should equal .999... it's the same concept but with a different appearance.
au contraire; this is probably one of the worst ways to say .999...=1.

Curd said:
3) if the reaction to my original assertion had been strictly productive instead of egotistical then this thread may well have never occurred which links us back to the 1st item on this list. you need to learn to communicate more concisely and without an attitude (you being certain members that have responded).

Oh dear; I cannot believe that I am reading this. Everyone in this thread has been concise. I see no failure to be concise on the part of any of the posters. They were patient with you; you just refused to learn.

I think it is funny that you essentially claim to not know what you are talking about, but then argue with everyone, and then have the nerve to call them egotistical.
 
  • #60
This thread illustrates exactly why 0.999... \neq 1 threads are usually banned. :cry:
 
  • #61
Curd said:
actually no. please do not assert that I've said things that i have not.
Actually yes. I quoted you verbatim and you said "decimals of fractions never accurately equal those fractions". If you are referring to only recurring decimal then use the word "recurring". And you've got the nerve to say that others here are poor communicators.

you could tell clearly from the pattern that i had set up with my earlier argument about .111... and it's relation to .999... that my argument only dealt with fractions who are represented by infinitely repeating digits after a decimal.
Yes that's true. That's why I was trying to help you word your question more correctly ok.
and as for your argument that there is a trap. 1-.999... = 1-.999... since there is no other way to write it that i know of.
Ok you didn't get as far as I expected. Most "layman" when confronted with this usually go something like,

1 - 0.9 = 0.1
1 - 0.99 = 0.01
1 - 0.999 = 0.001

therefore 1 - 0.999... = 0.00...1
where the "..." means repeats forever.

Usually at this point even the layperson can see the absurdity of what they've just written in 0.00...1. Essentially this is saying that there is a decimal point followed by a never ending number of zeros then at the end of this never ending string of zeros we put a one.

Clearly that one on the end is redundant so therefore 0.00...1 = 0.00... which is just an inefficient way of writing zero.

The difference between 1 and 0.999... is zero and therefore they are equal.
 
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  • #62
ramsey2879 said:
But the decimal .333... is also a decimal number, the ellipses "..." is just shorthand notation for the infinite string that constitutes this decimal number. Once you are talking of an infinite string of 3's there is no sense in asking of when does the sum reach 1/3 since it has by then reach 1/3. Any additional 3 in the string would be only adding a zero to the sum since n/[infinity] where n is a finite number = 0. Where are these additional 3's that you're talking about that don't contribute to the sum?
Infinity is not a number in the real number system, so you can't divide by it or otherwise do arithmetic with it. Limits are what you need to be working with if a variable gets large without bound.
ramsey2879 said:
That is a property of infinity. I see what you are saying but as long as you are talking in terms of decimal places of an infinite string any "additional decimal places" would effectively merely be adding zero to the sum. Also in reality you can not put a number on the number of decimal places to infinity or ever reach it to add to it. If you could you wouldn't be at infinity.
 
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  • #63
Curd said:
1) You don't know how to communicate
Are you serious? What exactly makes you say that? I really want to know.

Curd said:
2) the easiest way to say that .999... equals one is to say that the space after the decimal is infinite in size but is being filled with and infinite amount of 9's therefore the requirement needed for it to be "bumped" up to 1 is met. Also, if 1/9 equals .111... then 1/1 should equal .999... it's the same concept but with a different appearance.
This doesn't make any sense. The actual reason why 0.999...=1 is explained in post #35.

For every r>0, all but a finite number of members of the sequence 0.9, 0.99, 0.999,... are between 1-r and 1+r.​

See #35 for a more thorough explanation.

Curd said:
3) if the reaction to my original assertion had been strictly productive instead of egotistical then this thread may well have never occurred which links us back to the 1st item on this list. you need to learn to communicate more concisely and without an attitude (you being certain members that have responded).
You have displayed an attitude problem in just about every one of your posts. The problem is with you, not with the people who have tried to help you. No one gave you "attitude" before you started insulting everyone.

Curd said:
and does not the ... mean the 9's continue on into infinity?
Yes, but what does that mean? You clearly don't know the answer to that, and as long as you don't, there's no way you can understand this problem. This is why you should read post #35, where it's explained.

Curd said:
also, are there any cases where time can somehow be applied to this idea of ... so that at a certain point you have not actually reached 1?
Not in mathematics. If you consider the problem of physically writing the decimal expansion on paper, then time is obviously an issue, but then we are no longer talking about mathematics. Time has absolutely nothing to do with the issue of why 0.999...=1.
 
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  • #64
Infinity is hard to comprehend, so some people are tragically incapable of accepting that at infinity anything equals anything. No one can really visualise an infinity but what they can do is accept that as a limit it makes sense that certain values converge to an exact form.

If you can't accept that the infinite is basically an indefinite value that is without bound, then you are looking at it finitely and hence you are not going to grasp the implication of what infinity actually means. If you were to count to infinity it would take you forever, literally and if I stopped you in ten years you still would be infinitely far away.

Perhaps if you could put 1 billion 9s after the decimal and tried to do an equation you'd see an incredibly small amount of deviation from the exact value, now imagine that there are an infinite amount of these .9s how small is it now?
 
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  • #65
As homage to this thread or any such thread I believe we should post a thread along the lines:"I would like to kill (you) about .999..."

Any in favour?
:smile:
 
  • #66
Mark44 said:
Infinity is not a number in the real number system, so you can't divide by it or otherwise do arithmetic with it. Limits are what you need to be working with if a variable gets large without bound.
Where in my post did I say to multiply or do any arithmetic with infinity? In fact I actually said the contrary, to wit infinity was boundless. I was responding to the Op's argument that fractions such as .333... or .999... never add up to 1/3 or 1 becauase if they did the concept of infinity would be contradicted. I also said
" I think I now see where you are coming from. In effect you may be right to say that the limit cannot be reached in reality because concept of ever reaching infinity is not reality. But when we put ellipses at the end of a decimal string we are invoking the concept of a decimal string that is indeed infinite contary to reality. This decimal string is most often precisely defined and in the case of .999... is precisely equal to 1."
The definition of course comes from the theorey of limits.
I think the major thought I contributed in my post was the idea that infinity is not a concept well structured by the "reality" of being reachable as the Op seems to be insisting on.
 
  • #67
Right here...
ramsey2879 said:
But the decimal .333... is also a decimal number, the ellipses "..." is just shorthand notation for the infinite string that constitutes this decimal number. Once you are talking of an infinite string of 3's there is no sense in asking of when does the sum reach 1/3 since it has by then reach 1/3. Any additional 3 in the string would be only adding a zero to the sum since n/[infinity] where n is a finite number = 0. That is a property of infinity.[/color]
You are dividing some finite number n by infinity.
 
  • #68
Mark44 said:
Right here...

You are dividing some finite number n by infinity.
To get the limit of A/n as n goes to infinity you have to know what A/[infinity] is. P.S. My high school teacher said A/[infinity] was 0.
 
  • #69
ramsey2879 said:
To get the limit of A/n as n goes to infinity you have to know what A/[infinity] is. P.S. My high school teacher said A/[infinity] was 0.

I think your high school teacher was wrong then... (unless he was talking about extended reals, but I doubt it).
And to calculate limits of A/n, you don't need to know what A/[infinity] is. You can simply get it from the definition:

\forall \epsilon>0:\exists n_0\forall n\geq n_0:~|A/n|<\epsilon

The existence of the n0 in question follows from the axiom of Archimedes. So there's no need for calculations with infinity. Indeed, the whole purpose of limits is to avoid calculations with infinites, as these are ill-defined. Of course, you can still do it with infinites in your intuition (that's how I do it), but it's not rigourous mathematics.
 
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  • #70
ramsey2879 said:
To get the limit of A/n as n goes to infinity you have to know what A/[infinity] is. P.S. My high school teacher said A/[infinity] was 0.
No, to get the limit of A/n as n goes to infinity, you need to know the Archimedean principle.

To compute the limit of A/n as n goes to infinity instead by comparing to A/[infinity], you need a lot more information. One set of information would be
  • A number system containing an element called [infinity] along with all real numbers
  • Knowledge that A/[infinity] = 0 if A is finite
  • Knowledge that division in this new number system gives the same results as division in the real numbers, when both numbers are real
  • Knowledge that division is continuous in this new number system (at least, at (A, [infinity]))
  • Knowledge that the limit of n as n goes to infinity converges to [infinity]
  • Knowledge that limits computed in this new number system agree with limits computed in the real numbers when it would make sense.


(For the record, my thought processes probably would compute the limit by invoking continuity of division in the projective real numbers before any other approach)
 
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  • #71
Hurkyl said:
No, to get the limit of A/n as n goes to infinity, you need to know the Archimedean principle.

To compute the limit of A/n as n goes to infinity instead by comparing to A/[infinity], you need a lot more information. One set of information would be
  • A number system containing an element called [infinity] along with all real numbers
  • Knowledge that A/[infinity] = 0 if A is finite
  • Knowledge that division in this new number system gives the same results as division in the real numbers, when both numbers are real
  • Knowledge that division is continuous in this new number system (at least, at (A, [infinity]))
  • Knowledge that the limit of n as n goes to infinity converges to [infinity]
  • Knowledge that limits computed in this new number system agree with limits computed in the real numbers when it would make sense.
(For the record, my thought processes probably would compute the limit by invoking continuity of division in the projective real numbers before any other approach)
I supposed that calculus back in high school in the 1960's may have treated infinity differently from how the treat it today. I believe that all we had to do was simply recognized that infinity was like a much much bigger number than A to deduce that A/[infinity] was 0. PS I don't understand Micromass's math notation as I never had much math beyond High School.
 
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  • #72
ramsey2879 said:
I believe that all we had to do was simply recognized that infinity was like a much much bigger number than A to deduce that A/[infinity] was 0.

Not saying it's right or wrong, but that's also how I was taught to treat infinity in this situation.
 
  • #73
" infinity was like a much much bigger number than A"

The problem is that when you are working with the real number system infinity is not a number, so performing calculations with it makes no mathematical sense.
 
  • #74
ramsey2879 said:
I supposed that calculus back in high school in the 1960's may have treated infinity differently from how the treat it today. I believe that all we had to do was simply recognized that infinity was like a much much bigger number than A to deduce that A/[infinity] was 0.
I was in high school in the 60s also, but I don't recall that we were told to treat infinity as just a big number. No, I don't believe that infinity was presented any differently back then as compared to now.

statdad said:
" infinity was like a much much bigger number than A"

The problem is that when you are working with the real number system infinity is not a number, so performing calculations with it makes no mathematical sense.

Right, and this was my point to ramsey2879. An expression such as n/[infinity] explicitly uses infinity in the division, which isn't valid.
 
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  • #75
Mark44 said:
I was in high school in the 60s also, but I don't recall that we were told to treat infinity as just a big number. No, I don't believe that infinity was presented any differently back then as compared to no.

I was in school with this stuff 5 years ago.

I was always told that if you see something over infinity it's just like having an extremely big number so you just assume 0.

Again, not arguing this either way, just pointing out the way it was taught.
 
  • #76
So... uh... where do "fluxions" figure into this recent discussion?

Is there a place in mathematics for what one might term "virtual" infinity or "virtual" zero?

- RF

Definition: "Virtual Infinity": The largest number one can possibly imagine at a given point in time, plus 1, at a point in time just subsequent to the point in time one initially imagined... ( e.g. Skewe's Number + 1)
 
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  • #77
Raphie said:
So... uh... where do "fluxions" figure into this recent discussion?
They don't.


Is there a place in mathematics for what one might term "virtual" infinity or "virtual" zero?

- RF

Definition: "Virtual Infinity": The largest number one can possibly imagine at a given point in time, plus 1, at a point in time just subsequent to the point in time one initially imagined... ( e.g. Skewe's Number + 1)
That's not a very good definition. :-p

For the record, the most basic technique of calculus/analysis is the idea of "close enough" or "big enough". You don't have to invoke some mythical number larger than you can imagine; you just need to invoke a number that is big enough for the purpose at hand.

(To guard against misinterpretation, I will point out that infinity is not mythical -- at least, the mathematical notions of infinity are not. Many laypeople seem to have some mythical notion of it, though. :frown:)


Anyways, I know the basic idea you seem to be thinking. Some people like to attach a philosophical interpretation to non-standard analysis where, for example, the "standard integers" are the ones accessible to mathematicians and all other integers are simply too big or complicated for mathematicians to access directly. Wikipedia's page on internal set theory describes this viewpoint.

And for the record, in the non-standard model, while there are only finitely* many standard integers, there does not exist a number that says how many there are. In particular, there isn't a largest one.

Also, for the record, non-standard analysis doesn't need this philosophical interpretation. It is entirely optional. In fact, I have only ever seen it mentioned when the speaker wants to model the idea of "what is accessible to mathematicians" and sometimes in the context of internal set theory.

*: by the non-standard 'measure' of such things. There are infinitely many standard integers by the standard 'measure', of course.
 
  • #78
Hurkyl said:
That's not a very good definition. :-p

In a strict mathematical sense, I would concur, Hurkyl. Just trying to stake out some manner of middle ground here.

Too bad mathematical "language" does not allow for that middle ground between .99999 and .99999... Where is the possibility of the (sliding scale...) partial sum contained within that black/white notational dichotomy?

See post #22, by the way, for confirmation that we agree in principle on the basic question of this thread.
 
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  • #79
Raphie said:
In a strict mathematical sense, I would concur, Hurkyl. Just trying to stake out some manner of middle ground here.

Too bad mathmatical "language" does not allow for that middle ground between .99999 and .99999... Where is the possibility of the partial sum contained within that black/white notational dichotomy?

See post #22, by the way, for confirmation that we agree in principle on the basic question of this thread.

0.999999 is in the middle ground. So is 0.9999999 if the former didn't have enough 9's for you. :smile:

There is no middle ground between 0.999... and the set of all partial sums, though. This is a rather important geometric property of the number line.

Also, there is the sequence of numbers {1 - 10n} for those people who need to feel the need to consider a sequence of increasingly good approximations to 0.999...

And, of course, there is non-standard analysis for people who want a hyperfinite number of 9's, but still have a number that is only infinitessimally different from 0.999...
(hyperfinite for the non-standard measure of finiteness)


There is mathematical language for all sorts of ideas, and if there's not, it could be invented. The only true obstacle is when someone insists on grounding their reasoning firmly in the realm of vagueness and imprecision.
 
  • #80
Hurkyl said:
0.999999 is in the middle ground. So is 0.9999999 if the former didn't have enough 9's for you. :smile:

There is no middle ground between 0.999... and the set of all partial sums, though. This is a rather important geometric property of the number line.

Also, there is the sequence of numbers {1 - 10n} for those people who need to feel the need to consider a sequence of increasingly good approximations to 0.999...

And, of course, there is non-standard analysis for people who want a hyperfinite number of 9's, but still have a number that is only infinitessimally different from 0.999...
(hyperfinite for the non-standard measure of finiteness)


There is mathematical language for all sorts of ideas, and if there's not, it could be invented. The only true obstacle is when someone insists on grounding their reasoning firmly in the realm of vagueness and imprecision.

I'm going to guess that that sequence is supposed to read {1 - 10-n}.
 
  • #81
Curd said:
actually, there is a decimal expansion between .999... and 1. it's .9999... (the extra 9 and . signifying that it is still expanding and that there will always be a 9 between the two)
The number of 9s and the number of .s is arbitrary. They just mean to continue in the "obvious way." (Hence the ambiguity Fredrick keeps talking about.) The "obvious way," in this case, being a repeating decimal. In other words, ".999... = .9999... ." Although, it is commonly accepted that three is the correct number of .s for an "ellipsis," which is what ... is. The concept is also flawed. You are assuming ∞ + 1 > ∞ when, in fact, ∞ + c = ∞, where c is a constant. But ∞ isn't a real number, so one shouldn't use it as I just did. I was just illustrating my point. In other words, one more 9 than an infinite number of 9s is the same number of 9s as an infinite number of 9s.

Curd said:
how can the two meet if .999... is expanding onward forever? it would have to stop expanding to reach 1.
They meet only because .999... repeats forever. Numbers, or "expressions," don't "expand." They have a set value. You can define lots of ways to get that set value, the easiest is the infinite sum everyone keeps using. They don't just come up with it arbitrarily, it's origin comes from the very definition of the real numbers. See Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_representation, in this case, we would define a=.9 for all i. Then we take the infinite sum, to get the same proof we've already seen 100 times, just with a little background behind why it's valid, this time. Does that help?
 
  • #82
Hurkyl said:
And, of course, there is non-standard analysis for people who want a hyperfinite number of 9's, but still have a number that is only infinitessimally different from 0.999...
(hyperfinite for the non-standard measure of finiteness)

Is 0.9999 = 1 in the non-standard reals? Is the non-standard reals even complete? I should think so by the transfer-principle, but it is clear that 0.99999... cannot converge since every term is less that 1-e for some infinitesimal e. If so, how does 0.999 even make sense in the non-standard reals? Maybe the transfer-principle doesn't apply to completeness.

EDIT: what does an hyperfinite number of 9's mean?
 
  • #83
Hurkyl said:
There is no middle ground between 0.999... and the set of all partial sums, though. This is a rather important geometric property of the number line.

In a philosophical vein... That I recognize the validity of this statement (i.e "no middle ground") is what has had me thinking much of late about Durkheim's distinction between the sacred and the profane.
 
  • #84
Jarle said:
If so, how does 0.999 even make sense in the non-standard reals? Maybe the transfer-principle doesn't apply to completeness.
When you transfer, you have to transfer everything; you can't pick and choose.

In the standard model, a decimal numeral has its places indexed by integers. When you transfer that notion to the non-standard model, the corresponding notion of a "hyperdecimal numeral" has its places indexed by hyperintegers.

The partial sums of the non-standard infinite summation
\sum_{n=1}^{+\infty} 9 \cdot 10^{-n}​
that would define the hyperreal value of the hyperdecimal numeral 0.999...
(don't forget n ranges over hyperintegers!) are well-defined (since everything appearing is internal), and it's easy to check that they are an increasing (internal) bounded sequence, that they satisfy the transfer of the Cauchy criterion for convergence of a sequence, and so forth.

Of course, it's easier to compute this sum by just recognizing that it's the transfer of a standard sum that converges to 1.


EDIT: what does an hyperfinite number of 9's mean?
It means that there is a hyperinteger H bigger than zero, and the n-th digit of the hyperdecimal numeral in question is:
  • 9, if H <= n < 0
  • 0 otherwise
(the 0-th place is the one's place, the 1-th place is the ten's place, the (-1)-th place is the tenth's place, etc)
 
  • #85
Thanks. Does this mean that the corresponding thing to a countable sequence in the standard reals is a sequence indexed by hyper-integers?

9, if H <= n < 0
0 otherwise

And does this have a corresponding non-standard real number (I should guess so as it is a cauchy-sequence indexed by hyperintegers)? Does all non-standard real numbers have a corresponding digit representation?

Still, shouldn't every subset of the non-standard reals bounded below have a largest lower bound by the transfer principle? If we consider the subset of real numbers larger than 0 as a subset of the non-standard reals, this would have no largest lower bound in the non-standard reals. Am I not using the transfer-principle correctly here?

EDIT: Maybe it is because the subset of real numbers cannot properly defined by the transferred axioms of the reals to the nonstandard reals in order for the transfer principle to work? EDIT again: This got me wondering about the "standard part" function. If the reals is not a "properly defined" subset of the non-standards, the standard part couldn't be "properly defined" either.
 
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  • #86
Jarle said:
Thanks. Does this mean that the corresponding thing to a countable sequence in the standard reals is a sequence indexed by hyper-integers?
Yep. Well, two technicalities.

The first one is harmless -- in standard analysis, there are lots of countable ordinals (or even more general "order types") that could be used to index seqences. I'm assuming you didn't mean to include these more general sorts of things.

The second is more important -- the sequence has to be "internal".



And does this have a corresponding non-standard real number (I should guess so as it is a cauchy-sequence indexed by hyperintegers)? Does all non-standard real numbers have a corresponding digit representation?
Yep! It's the transfer of the standard theorem:
Every real number is equal to the infinite sum that computes the value of some decimal number​
which becomes
Every hyperreal number is equal to the infinite sum that computes the value of some hyperdecimal number​


Still, shouldn't every subset of the non-standard reals bounded below have a largest lower bound by the transfer principle?
Every internal set.

Am I not using the transfer-principle correctly here?
The internal / external distinction is probably the most important one to understand to avoid making mistakes.

(I think your edit is touching upon the ideas I write below down to the horizontal line)

In the non-standard model, we have the set of hyperintegers, the set of hyperreals, and so forth. And to these we can apply the tools set theory, calculus, analysis, number theory, algebra, or whatever. The transfer principle says the standard and non-standard models have exactly the same theorems.

The power of non-standard analysis comes because we can also view the hyperreals as a standard set. Even better, we can view the standard real numbers as a subalgebra of the non-standard ones!

But that's where the danger comes too -- viewed this way, the standard model has a lot more things in it than the non-standard model does. Doing set theory in the standard model let's us construct a lot of sets that the non-standard model doesn't have. (similarly for sequences, functions, et cetera)

(of course, this all transfers. The non-standard model has hyperhyperreals and a "hypernonstandard model" built on top of them...)
___________________________________________________

Generally speaking, there is a quick way to tell if an object is internal (and thus usable in the non-standard model) or not -- if it makes any reference whatsoever to the standard model other than transferring something, it's probably external.

So the standard part function is, in fact, external. The set of positive standard real numbers (viewed as a subset of the hyperreals) is also an external set. Because it is not internal, it doesn't contradict the LUB property that every internal nonempty bounded subset of the hyperreals has a greatest lower bound.
 
  • #87
Thank you, these are really good explanations. I should get hold of a book on model theory, the transfer principle seems really powerful.
 
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  • #88
Have you tried Keisler's calculus book? I've skimmed through part of it and found it useful. (but then, I knew some non-standard analysis already before doing so)
 
  • #89
Hurkyl said:
Have you tried Keisler's calculus book? I've skimmed through part of it and found it useful. (but then, I knew some non-standard analysis already before doing so)

I haven't, but this is excellent. Thanks for the reference, this will come in handy. Do you perhaps know of a good reference which treats the transfer principle as well?
 
  • #90
Char. Limit said:
Here's a proof that .999...=1.

.999... can be written as the infinite sum as follows:

<SNIP>

---

Hello Char - I found that little proof fascinating. Might that concept also extend to natural numbers like Pi, e, etc. ? Although they are not recurring as such, they are nevertheless convergent, getting ever closer to an asymptote value without ever reaching it (intuitively). If a proof can be established, it would yield actual values for said numbers, albeit with a huge number of decimal places but a finite number nonetheless.
 
  • #91
SewerRat said:
---

Hello Char - I found that little proof fascinating. Might that concept also extend to natural numbers like Pi, e, etc. ? Although they are not recurring as such, they are nevertheless convergent, getting ever closer to an asymptote value without ever reaching it (intuitively). If a proof can be established, it would yield actual values for said numbers, albeit with a huge number of decimal places but a finite number nonetheless.

(Do you mean irrational numbers? pi and e aren't natural numbers :-p) The problem with pi is that you can't really establish a geometric series since there's no specific formula for calculating a certain digit of pi.
 
  • #92
SewerRat said:
---

Hello Char - I found that little proof fascinating. Might that concept also extend to natural numbers like Pi, e, etc. ? Although they are not recurring as such, they are nevertheless convergent, getting ever closer to an asymptote value without ever reaching it (intuitively). If a proof can be established, it would yield actual values for said numbers, albeit with a huge number of decimal places but a finite number nonetheless.
To answer your question, the method used by char limit cannot be used to give a representation of \pi with a finite number of decimal places, same for e. Both of these numbers are irrational, so there is no finite decimal expansion of them.

However, we can write both of them as the sum of an infinite number of terms, as Char Limit did. I will show you below, but there is no way to go from these infinite sums to a rational number.

e = 1 + \frac{1}{1!} + \frac{1}{2!} + \cdots
= \sum\limits_{n=0}^{inf} {\frac{1}{n!}}

and

\pi = 4 \sum\limits_{n=0}^{inf} {\frac{-1^n}{2n+1}}

Again, you cannot put these into a nice rational form, but they are very good at approximating both. As a note to the OP, I think that you need to check common sense at the door. Common seems to tell you that no matter "how far you go" in the decimal expansion of .999..., you'll never get that extra "little bit" to make the expansion equal to 1. I think most people would agree that, at first glance, this makes sense. In fact, if you were to ask most people, they would probably say something similar.

However, in math, common sense has no place. Many, many, many times, common sense is dead wrong in math. This is especially true in real analysis (which is essentially what your question is about.) There are lots of "pathological" stuff in analysis. Things that don't seem to make any sense at all, but are, nonetheless, true.

Let me give you an example. There is something called the Cantor Set, C. This is a subset of the unit interval, I. Now, let I' denote the unit interval after we take the Cantor Set out of it. That is, in set notation, I' = I \ C. Additionally, I&#039; \cap C = \{\} and I&#039; \cup C = I.

There are some interesting properties. For example, the length of I&#039; is 1. The number of elements in I&#039; is the same as the number of elements in I. So, you might think that C is just the empty set. Since I haven't defined the Cantor Set, then the empty set is certainly a possibility. However, the Cantor Set is not empty. In fact, it has the same number of elements as the unit interval and the same number of elements as I&#039;. And, the length of the Cantor set is 0. So, as you can see, there is off stuff that just blows common sense out of the water. This .999...=1 thing is just the tip of the iceberg.
 
  • #93
I think you're taking the wrong lesson from counterexamples. A lot of time, a "pathological" example of X is not a demonstration that you have poor intuition about X, but that you were actually intuiting some other thing Y.

For example, when people are boggled about a facts like the Cantor set having the same number of elements as the entire interval, often it's because they are thinking about their intuitive notion of geometry, rather than a notion of cardinality.


I've read that on 0.999... specifically, people have problems because they flat out aren't thinking about a "number whose decimal expansion has infinitely many nonzero digits". They are thinking about things like a process of starting with "0." and adding "9"s one at a time, or they are thinking about a numeral with an unspecified large number of "9"s. Many of their misconceptions about 0.999... are, in fact, reasonable or even true statements about what they're really thinking about -- but they are firmly rooted in the land of confusion because they think they're thinking about 0.999...
 
  • #94
@Robert: Elementary analysis and topology is often ridden with counter-examples, but they all share a common purpose: to show and build confidence in exactly why we need the at first glance seemingly unnecessary conditions for our theorems, and how horribly wrong it goes if we ignore them. Instead of boggling your mind with paradoxes (if you let them), you should rather let them teach you to keep your eye on the details, because they are always there for a reason. You can learn when to trust your intuition.
 
  • #95
Hurkyl said:
I think you're taking the wrong lesson from counterexamples. A lot of time, a "pathological" example of X is not a demonstration that you have poor intuition about X, but that you were actually intuiting some other thing Y.

For example, when people are boggled about a facts like the Cantor set having the same number of elements as the entire interval, often it's because they are thinking about their intuitive notion of geometry, rather than a notion of cardinality.


I've read that on 0.999... specifically, people have problems because they flat out aren't thinking about a "number whose decimal expansion has infinitely many nonzero digits". They are thinking about things like a process of starting with "0." and adding "9"s one at a time, or they are thinking about a numeral with an unspecified large number of "9"s. Many of their misconceptions about 0.999... are, in fact, reasonable or even true statements about what they're really thinking about -- but they are firmly rooted in the land of confusion because they think they're thinking about 0.999...

I don't think I mentioned "intuition", and if I did, it was a mistake. I used the term "common sense" which I consider to be very different from the notion of "intuition". To me, common sense is just a set of very shallow ideas that the "common man" has. For example, common sense would lead one to conclude that if you take some points away from a set X, then set X will have fewer points than it had to begin with. Of course, this is shallow and it doesn't take long to come up with an example to convince "the man on the street" of his errors. Intuition, on the other hand, is something that is developed by studying a certain topic. It is something that increases and changes as you learn more about whatever it is you are studying.

My point to the OP was that you have to accept the fact that some of the things you think might not be correct. There are some things that a person might think are true, but the math says that he is wrong. The Cantor Set is, IMO, a prime example of this.


And, as for the cause of people's misconceptions about .99..., I think what you wrote is pretty much what I described. People think that there is a finite number of 9's after the decimal place and thus the expansion "never makes it" to 1.
 
  • #96
Jarle said:
@Robert: Elementary analysis and topology is often ridden with counter-examples, but they all share a common purpose: to show and build confidence in exactly why we need the at first glance seemingly unnecessary conditions for our theorems, and how horribly wrong it goes if we ignore them. Instead of boggling your mind with paradoxes (if you let them), you should rather let them teach you to keep your eye on the details, because they are always there for a reason. You can learn when to trust your intuition.

I'm not sure what to make of this post. I don't let paradoxes "boggle" my mind. My point was to the OP and my point was that analysis has a lot of stuff that might seem incorrect at first glance, but are nonetheless true. Therefore, when confronted with a proof and several augments for why .99...=1, he should, as I said, check his common sense at the door.
 
  • #97
Hurkyl said:
0.999999 is in the middle ground. So is 0.9999999 if the former didn't have enough 9's for you. :smile:

There is no middle ground between 0.999... and the set of all partial sums, though. This is a rather important geometric property of the number line.

Also, there is the sequence of numbers {1 - 10n} for those people who need to feel the need to consider a sequence of increasingly good approximations to 0.999...

And, of course, there is non-standard analysis for people who want a hyperfinite number of 9's, but still have a number that is only infinitessimally different from 0.999...
(hyperfinite for the non-standard measure of finiteness)


There is mathematical language for all sorts of ideas, and if there's not, it could be invented. The only true obstacle is when someone insists on grounding their reasoning firmly in the realm of vagueness and imprecision.

I don't quite understand the concept of "hyperfinite". Is it some sort of concept between the concepts of finite and infinite? What exactly do you mean when you say a "hyperfinite number of 9's"?
 
  • #98
(Did you see post #84?)

The non-standard model has all of the same objects, notions, constructions, and what not as the standard model does. In particular, it has its own notion of finiteness.

Since we often want to consider both the standard and non-standard notions of finiteness, it helps to use different words for them. So we continue with the tradition to prefix the non-standard version with "hyper".

For any positive hypernatural number H, the set of all integers between 0 and H is a hyperfinite set. However, this set is finite if and only if H is a standard natural number.

The non-standard model has its own version of cardinality. Any hyperfinite set has non-standard cardinality equal to a hypernatural number.
 
  • #99
Char. Limit said:
I don't quite understand the concept of "hyperfinite". Is it some sort of concept between the concepts of finite and infinite? What exactly do you mean when you say a "hyperfinite number of 9's"?

It's a made up invented term for things that can supposedly exist beyond merely infinite number sets in sets, rather a semantic issue of no real importance, a simple infinite limit will always do in maths. I wouldn't concentrate too much on the details, as this thread highlights mathematicians cannot even conceive of an infinity any more than they can of what would be beyond such a beast and what properties such an invisible unicorn might have, perhaps a shade of pinkness? They just like to play with ghosts of what might be if reality and physical existence was different. It's like fairy stories, imaginary stuff that has no real practical use outside of maths in and of itself.

Hyperfine numbers can be relatively useful (well outside of science or applied maths where infinities are somewhat problematic) however there are some pretty dubious cardinality issues with transfinite numbers. Just grasping what an infinity could be is enough for most people to barely comprehend, like the OP. Mathematicians would beg to differ they have visualised something that is by axiom more than just infinite, but meh it's what they do, whether it is philosophically apt to make up ideas of beyond something that can never be reached is a matter of debate only outside of fortress maths. You'll never convince a mathematician that anything he says is epistemologically unjustifiable when all he needs is an axiom. It is true because I say it is, constructive logic and proof is irrelevant as is utility. :smile:

As far as transfinite systems go though, even though this has been a firm contention in maths since its inception, amongst the great minds of both maths and philosophy, whom it appears stand in corners according to whether they study philosophy or maths. It is apparently kinda illegal to discuss this subject as a system of "numeration" that will never have any use to anything outside of maths; being called into question is apparently so unsettling that it causes threads to be locked despite the great derth of material on this subject from all sorts of great minds from ancient times to today. It is not appropriate to question what is beyond "God". Perhaps if students of maths were to question their own axioms the whole number system would fall into chaos. :wink:

Perhaps definitions that make any sense are not important. Who knows..?

I of course disagree and find such silly blanket bans and contentions, with what are clearly circular and espistemologically dubious axioms, that are completely non constructive, and cannot define there own terms without resort to allusion, to be rather a nuisance to those who really want to understand this concept for what it actually is rather than what someone who didn't really understand what Cantor said thinks it is. It is not really an infinity it is trying to make the concept have utility beyond its definition which is rather what pure mathematicians do, when they run out of numbers that can exist, they make up ones that can't and then claim there are numbers beyond even that so on forever to infinity and beyond. Which is fine as long as like Cantor you make the proviso that these are not actual infinities, these are not really infinity, these are just conceptual things we use the title of infinity for, for want of a better word.

An infinity is as many of the people in this thread have said is not a number and applying mathematical arguments (whether you want to call it sets of infinite sets or infinity x infinity or even infinity^infinity to what is an undefined value is worthless beyond semantic arm waving. Outside of infinity has no logical, metaphysical or intrinsic worth to anything, it is and always has been all there is unbound. I'm not afraid to say that because it happens to be true and axiom is no substitute for logic.

If you divide the universe into infinite pieces, if you take infinite universes and divide them into infinite pieces, all you really have done is quantified the infinite in both cases as the same thing, there is nothing more than everything unbound, at least that has any utility or ever will.
 
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  • #100
As a mathematician, I don't think I quite agree with your analysis Calrid.

Calrid said:
It's a made up invented term for things that can supposedly exist beyond merely infinite number sets in sets, rather a semantic issue of no real importance, a simple infinite limit will always do in maths.

Hyperfinite numbers were invented by Newton and Leibniz (and before) to give sense to their integral calculus. Sadly enough, the foundations of hyperreal where screwed up, and to fix it, they started to work with limits and epsilon-delta definitions. It is only in the later years, that infinitesimal quantities have found a real foundation. It's not because pure mathematicians wanted to invent something new, it's because they wanted to give a foundation to already existing stuff.

I wouldn't concentrate too much on the details, as this thread highlights mathematicians cannot even conceive of an infinity any more than they can of what would be beyond such a beast and what properties such an invisible unicorn might have, perhaps a shade of pinkness? They just like to play with ghosts of what might be if reality and physical existence was different. It's like fairy stories, imaginary stuff that has no real practical use outside of maths in and of itself.

So infinitesimals have no real practical use? Tell that to the physicists who work with infinitesimals every day. Entire physical theories are built up on the concept of infinitesimals. All mathematics wants to do is to give a foundation to them. This can be done in terms of hyperreals or differential geometry. But I don't think it's fair to call them fairy stories, imaginary stuff and useless.

Hyperfine numbers can be relatively useful (well outside of science or applied maths where infinities are somewhat problematic) however there are some pretty dubious cardinality issues with transfinite numbers.

I'd like to know what you mean with this. You mean the continuum hypothesis? That's not a problem of the transfinite numbers, but of the axioms of mathematics itself. Better axioms could resolve a lot of issues. (Although Godel proved that you cannot choose axioms that resolve all).

Just grasping what an infinity could be is enough for most people to barely comprehend, like the OP. Mathematicians would beg to differ they have visualised something that is by axiom more than just infinite, but meh it's what they do, whether it is philosophically apt to make up ideas of beyond something that can never be reached is a matter of debate only outside of fortress maths. You'll never convince a mathematician that anything he says is epistemologically unjustifiable when all he needs is an axiom. It is true because I say it is, constructive logic and proof is irrelevant as is utility. :smile:

Hmmm, you're the first to say that proof is irrelevant to mathematicians...
And transfinite numbers have not been invented because mathematicians thought they were fun. They were invented for a reason. Indeed, Cantor invented transfinite numbers to give sense to Fourier series. And you wouldn't call Fourier series useless do you?
Another big application of transfinite numbers is in probability theory, where the concept of sigma-algebra is fundamental.

As far as transfinite systems go though, even though this has been a firm contention in maths since its inception, amongst the great minds of both maths and philosophy, whom it appears stand in corners according to whether they study philosophy or maths. It is apparently kinda illegal to discuss this subject as a system of "numeration" that will never have any use to anything outside of maths; being called into question is apparently so unsettling that it causes threads to be locked despite the great derth of material on this subject from all sorts of great minds from ancient times to today. It is not appropriate to question what is beyond "God". Perhaps if students of maths were to question their own axioms the whole number system would fall into chaos. :wink:

Now you're just making things up. If you would know how real math works, then you would know that the axioms are being questioned every single day. And a student who does not question the axioms of mathematics, is not a good student in my opinion. Calling into question the axioms leads to very fruitful theories, like non-Euclidean geometry and the New Foundations theory. If people propose a new axiomatic system for a mathematical object, then I don't think any mathematician would hesitate to accept it if it were useful.

And as for the threads being locked. I have no qualms in discussing 0.999... and division by zero, if the OP was willing to learn. If somebody with a lot of knowledge about mathematics were to discuss these issues, I would listen and discuss with him/her. But you can't expect us to discuss something like this with somebody who hasn't seen limits and who still thinks that all mathematicians are wrong. If you do not grasp limits, then you have no idea what this question is even about.

In fact, I myself, have once constructed a new system where 1 does not equal 0.999... But the problem was that this system was ugly and not very useful. But don't tell us that we are not willing to change the axioms, because we are. The problem is often that the proposed new axioms do not deliver a nicer theory, on the contrary,...

Perhaps definitions that make any sense are not important. Who knows..?

So, which definitions do you think make no sense?

I think I've said everything I wanted, so I'll stop here. The only things that I want to make clear that mathematicians do not make things up for their amusement. There is often a need to understand something physical/mathematical/philosophical, and this is where the mathematical theories come from.
 
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