If [itex]x,y\in\mathbb{R}^n[/itex] are 2 vectors then is the following

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around properties of norms and metrics, specifically in the context of vectors in \(\mathbb{R}^n\) and continuous functions on closed intervals. Participants explore the implications of the norm definition and the conditions under which certain equalities hold.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification, Assumption checking, Mathematical reasoning

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants examine the condition \(\| x-y \| = 0 \iff x-y=0\) for vectors and discuss its implications for norms. They also consider the properties of the norm defined for continuous functions and question the need for careful justification in proving equivalences related to integrals.

Discussion Status

The discussion is ongoing, with participants providing insights into the properties of norms and metrics. Some express a need for clarity on the proof requirements, while others suggest that certain results may be considered obvious based on prior knowledge. There is no explicit consensus, but various interpretations and approaches are being explored.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the importance of referencing established theorems regarding integrals of continuous functions when discussing the properties of the norm for functions in \(C[a,b]\). There is also mention of specific examples that challenge the assumptions made in the discussion.

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If [itex]x,y\in\mathbb{R}^n[/itex] are 2 vectors then is the following correct:

[itex]\| x-y \| = 0 \iff x-y=0[/itex] ?

If [itex]f,g \in C [a,b][/itex] are 2 continuous functions on the closed interval [itex][a,b][/itex] then with [itex]\displaystyle \| f-g \| = \left( \int^b_a (f-g)^2 \right)^{1/2}[/itex] is the following correct: [tex]\| f-g \| \geq 0\; ;[/tex] [tex]\| f-g \| = 0 \iff f-g=0\; ?[/tex] (I think this follows from the fact that if a continuous function [itex]h=f-g[/itex] is non-negative and integrates to 0 over an integral [itex][a,b][/itex] (with [itex]a<b[/itex]) then h is the zero function.)
 
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Ted123 said:
If [itex]x,y\in\mathbb{R}^n[/itex] are 2 vectors then is the following correct:

[itex]\| x-y \| = 0 \iff x-y=0[/itex] ?
You haven't indicated what norm [itex]\|\cdot\|[/itex] represents. But if it is a norm, that property is part of its definition. Perhaps you are to prove it for some proposed norm?
If [itex]f,g \in C [a,b][/itex] are 2 continuous functions on the closed interval [itex][a,b][/itex] then with [itex]\displaystyle \| f-g \| = \left( \int^b_a (f-g)^2 \right)^{1/2}[/itex] is the following correct: [tex]\| f-g \| \geq 0\; ;[/tex] [tex]\| f-g \| = 0 \iff f-g=0\; ?[/tex] (I think this follows from the fact that if a continuous function [itex]h=f-g[/itex] is non-negative and integrates to 0 over an integral [itex][a,b][/itex] (with [itex]a<b[/itex]) then h is the zero function.)

Again, those are correct properties of a norm, and your formula is in fact a norm. And your outline of how to prove it is correct. Is your problem to actually do the proof or what?
 


No it's not a question as such, just trying to prove that the Euclidean metric and [itex]L^2[/itex]-metric are indeed metrics (i.e. satisfy the 3 properties).

With the continuous function one, it says to prove [itex]\| f-g \| = 0 \iff f=g[/itex] you need to be careful and can't just state that [itex]\| f-g \| =0 \iff f-g=0[/itex] like with vectors (i.e. you need to use the continuous function property from Analysis)...
 


LCKurtz said:
You haven't indicated what norm [itex]\|\cdot\|[/itex] represents. But if it is a norm, that property is part of its definition. Perhaps you are to prove it for some proposed norm?


Again, those are correct properties of a norm, and your formula is in fact a norm. And your outline of how to prove it is correct. Is your problem to actually do the proof or what?

Ted123 said:
No it's not a question as such, just trying to prove that the Euclidean metric and [itex]L^2[/itex]-metric are indeed metrics (i.e. satisfy the 3 properties).

With the continuous function one, it says to prove [itex]\| f-g \| = 0 \iff f=g[/itex] you need to be careful and can't just state that [itex]\| f-g \| =0 \iff f-g=0[/itex] like with vectors...

So what do you want? Are you stuck on the proofs?
 


LCKurtz said:
So what do you want? Are you stuck on the proofs?

No I'm OK but why can't you state for the 2nd one that [itex]\| f-g \| = 0 \iff f-g = 0[/itex] ?
 


Ted123 said:
No I'm OK but why can't you state for the 2nd one that [itex]\| f-g \| = 0 \iff f-g = 0[/itex] ?

Because it relies on the theorem about integrals of continuous functions to which you refer. You are going to use that theorem either by referencing it as a known theorem or proving it. If that theorem is already discussed and "well known" in your class, you might claim that the result is "obvious". Otherwise you might need to give a reference to it from something you learned earlier or include a proof.
 


Ted123 said:
No I'm OK but why can't you state for the 2nd one that [itex]\| f-g \| = 0 \iff f-g = 0[/itex] ?

Find the integrals of f(x)=x on [0,1], and g(x)=x on [0,1]\{1/2}, and g(1/2)=10, and see what you get. Try then f(x)=x , and g(x)=x on [0,1]\{1/2,1/3} , and g(1/2)=g(1/3)=9.

LCKurtz: Would you please suggest on how to include the symbols in the bottom of your post in one's signature file?
 
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Bacle2 said:
Find the integrals of f(x)=x on [0,1], and g(x)=x on [0,1]\{1/2}, and g(1/2)=10, and see what you get. Try then f(x)=x , and g(x)=x on [0,1]\{1/2,1/3} , and g(1/2)=g(1/3)=9.

How is that relevant? His space is C[a,b].
LCKurtz: Would you please suggest on how to include the symbols in the bottom of your post in one's signature file?

Click on My PF at the top left of your screen and select to Edit Signature.
 


Yes, sorry, I missed the fact that we were working on C[a,b]. Thanks for the reply on the signature.
 

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