If SR Wrong: Difficulties, Paradoxes, Instantaneous Signals

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Discussion Overview

The discussion explores the implications and paradoxes that might arise if Special Relativity (SR) were incorrect, particularly focusing on the concept of instantaneous signals and the nature of the universe under such conditions. Participants consider theoretical frameworks, potential difficulties, and the nature of causality in a hypothetical universe without SR.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that a universe without SR might resemble pre-relativistic mechanics, where classical mechanics would apply without the constraints of light speed as a limit.
  • One viewpoint posits that if SR were wrong, the universe would require numerous adjustments to existing theories, particularly to ensure Maxwell's equations remain invariant across different inertial frames.
  • Another participant raises the question of whether field effects, such as gravitational and electrostatic forces, could travel at speeds different from the speed of light, which could alter our understanding of the universe's behavior.
  • There is a discussion about the implications of violating the constancy of light and the principle of relativity, with some arguing that if only the conclusions derived from SR are incorrect, it could lead to a breakdown of the mathematical framework used to describe the universe.
  • One participant humorously suggests that if relativity were wrong, the universe would remain unchanged except for more "red faces," while another counters that many would face dire consequences due to reliance on current scientific principles.
  • A question is raised about the status of causality in a Galilean universe, with one participant asserting that causality would not be violated due to the existence of absolute time and simultaneity.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the implications of a universe without SR, with no consensus reached on the specific outcomes or the nature of causality. Some participants agree on the potential for pre-relativistic mechanics to apply, while others highlight the complexities and challenges that would arise.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the importance of clarifying which aspects of SR are being questioned, as different interpretations lead to varying implications for the universe's behavior. The discussion remains open-ended regarding the consequences of such a hypothetical scenario.

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If SR were wrong, in what kind of difficulties and paradoxes would we run? What would an universe with instantaneous signals look like? Is such universe even possible?

thanks
 
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It might look how pre-relativistic mechanics says it would look.
 
Ratzinger said:
If SR were wrong, in what kind of difficulties and paradoxes would we run? What would an universe with instantaneous signals look like? Is such universe even possible?

thanks

You would have a continuous patchwork of kludges added in order to make things fit. The first kludge would be to fix things in such a way so that Maxwell equations would look invariant when viewed from relatively moving inertial frames. And it gets nastier from there...
 
Some of the interpretations that depend upon c as the limiting speed limit may not have any effect on the way things work - for example we know that em waves travel at c, we think electostatic and gravitational effects are also similarly limited - but we don't have very good ways to verify the speed at which fields produce forces at a distance. So if by some chance these field effects travel at some other speed than c, then the universe will behave as it does, but not for the reason we think it does
 
Ratzinger said:
If SR were wrong, in what kind of difficulties and paradoxes would we run? What would an universe with instantaneous signals look like? Is such universe even possible?

thanks


Be more specific. Do you mean if the principles SR is based on are wrong, namely the constancy of the speed of light for all inertial observers, and the principle of relativity? Or do you mean the conclusions derived from those?

It depends on what part is wrong. If you mean the second and not the first, well then our entire system of mathematics doesn't apply to the universe as a descriptive tool. And if you mean that light is not the same to all observers, but the principle of relativity still holds, then we get pre-relativistic mechanics. If you say light is constant, but the laws of physics are not the same in all inertial frames, or both are wrong, then really weird things happen.
 
Ratzinger said:
If SR were wrong, in what kind of difficulties and paradoxes would we run? What would an universe with instantaneous signals look like? Is such universe even possible?

thanks

If realtivity were wrong, the universe would be the same as it is now. Except it would have more red faces.
 
Be more specific.

I mean pre-relavistic mechanics (and pre-Maxwell). No constancy of light, Galilean relativity apply in this universe, you can travel as fast as you like.

Is causality violated in a Galilean universe?
 
We would have serious trouble making our synchrotrons work.
 
wisp said:
If realtivity were wrong, the universe would be the same as it is now. Except it would have more red faces.

Not really. Most of us would have been DEAD, including you, because the stuff we depend our lives on would have caused major crashes or wrong medical diagnosis.

Zz.
 
  • #10
Ratzinger said:
Is causality violated in a Galilean universe?

No, because there is absolute time and absolute similtaneity.

Regards,
George
 
  • #11
Is there still time to retreat my question? It looks fairly dumb now to me .
 

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