Implications of a single consciousness

[Faust]

If it is such a truth by observation that it was true today and also in the past, then this is a truth within time, not outside it.

If one defines truths as timeless, then "truths within time" don't exist by definition. But I wasn't trying to make a point about truths, although it may have come out that way, I was only trying to point out that the existence of absolute ignorance is an assumption. Just like the existence of "absolutely nothing" before the universe was created is an assumption. It may turn out that the universe was not created, and it may turn out that knowledge exists outside of time. I certainly don't know, I just found Doctordick's claim that he does is lacking substance. But I'm still waiting for his reply, I may have gotten him wrong.

 

[Paul Martin]

That of course depends on what one finds interesting, doesn't it? I personally find solipsism and brain-in-vat scenarios quite interesting, not in themselves but rather for what they reveal about the people who believe those scenarios are possible.

Now you have me interested. I happen to believe that a version of solipsism is true and I happen to believe that BIV is possible although I seriously doubt that it is true. I am very interested in hearing what you think this reveals about me.

To help you make that assessment, let me explain a little about my version of solipsism. I do not believe in the truth of the version of solipsism which says that Paul Martin (me) is the only entity that exists and everything else is a figment of my imagination. Instead, I believe that the "thing" in me that experiences consciousness is identically one and the same as the "thing" which experiences consciousness in each and every other conscious entity (people, animals, whatever), and that solipsism is true from the perspective of that "thing". I believe that that "thing" is the only thing that truly exists and that everything else, including physical reality, is a figment of that "thing's" imagination.

As for the plausibility of a BIV scenario, I believe that there is a vastly more complex structure of transcendent reality (albeit this, too, is nothing but a figment of that "thing's" imagination) in which a BIV implementation could possibly exist and which could explain the phenomena of our familiar physical reality. Although I believe in the existence of that transcendent structure, I don't believe in the truth of the BIV scenario.

What do you think that reveals about me?

Paul

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

If one defines truths as timeless, then "truths within time" don't exist by definition.

Ye-es, and if one defines everything in the shop as a carrot it makes no sense to ask for a potato, but why would you define truths as timeless?

 

[Doctordick]

Hi Faust,

I wasn't going to respond to your comments as I found your comment, "... Sensible ones perhaps, but unwarranted nonetheless" to be a thoughtless emotional response. Where else could one say it is unwarranted to be sensible and expect to be thought rational? Perhaps I misunderstood your intentions; on review, I think you certainly misunderstood mine. I will give you my reactions to what you said:

No one is saying absolute ignorance exists

Yeah, I have noticed that. Everyone seems to have a personal reason to doubt the possibility that understanding can arise from ignorance. I even knew someone once who really believed that babies were born understanding everything and the purpose of life was achieve that state of grace again. I just didn't want to be the one wiping his butt when he managed to achieve that state again. Human beings seem to hold "knowing the answer" above "being correct". From my experiences the one thing most everyone cannot bring themselves to say is, "I don't know!"

for one thing, you have to know a lot of stuff before you can say "I know absolutely nothing", which makes the assertion self-falsifying.

As far as I can tell, that comment is almost pure sophistry and lacks any intellectual content at all.

Maybe knowledge didn't come from anything, not even absolute ignorance. Truths exist outside of time, and if knowledge means "knowledge of truths" then knowledge may also exist outside of time. In that case, knowledge was never created so we don't have to explain its origin.

Yeah, and maybe pigs will fly. I haven't the slightest idea what your harangue is all about. I certainly made no mention of "the origin of knowledge? I was talking about how human beings manage to understand the world around them when they start out so ignorant. Of course, maybe I am wrong about that apparent achievement; maybe it's just an illusion.

I'm not saying that is the case, I'm saying we can't prove it isn't, which makes claims to the contrary unwarranted assumptions.

We can't prove what? That a newborn baby can't pass the college boards? Or that the same kid will do fine twenty years later? It seems to me that the evidence that ignorance can change to understanding is quite abundant. And, if the starting point isn't absolute ignorance, you better give me an alternate source. Apparently selfAdjoint recognized exactly the same conundrum in your harangue as he points out that your beliefs require you to be a theist, if only to provide that "original" understanding. But how did he come to possesses it?

I don't know why you seem incapable of having a rational discussion

It takes two to tango; give me some rational discussion and maybe I could handle it. Oh, I don't feel a constant need to resort to sarcasm; it generally arises when I read some of the posts I find. I would say the forum just sort of encourages it.

Have you no respect for other people's intelligence?

When I see it, I respect it. I just wish I could see more of it.

Please do not take my comments as condescending; they are no more than an honest expression of my reaction to your post.

Have fun -- Dick

 

[learningphysics]

And, if the starting point isn't absolute ignorance, you better give me an alternate source. Apparently selfAdjoint recognized exactly the same conundrum in your harangue as he points out that your beliefs require you to be a theist, if only to provide that "original" understanding. But how did he come to possesses it?

I might be misunderstanding what you mean by "absolute ignorance", but it is impossible to learn anything starting with a true blank slate. There has to be a foundation to begin with. According to Kant (whom I agree with here), causality, quantity, negation... are some of the concepts of understanding we start with.

Without this foundation... everything we see, hear is just sense data... We have no framework with which to make any judgments about anything.

 

[Faust]

Now you have me interested. I happen to believe that a version of solipsism is true and I happen to believe that BIV is possible although I seriously doubt that it is true. I am very interested in hearing what you think this reveals about me.

Well, from my perspective a belief in the possibility of solipsism reveals a peculiar concept of consciousness. I have a hard time relating to that concept, although I don't think it's necessarily false.

To help you make that assessment, let me explain a little about my version of solipsism. I do not believe in the truth of the version of solipsism which says that Paul Martin (me) is the only entity that exists and everything else is a figment of my imagination.

Well, the version of solipsism where Paul Martin is the only conscious being is certainly false to me. Since it's also false to you, we're doing fine here.

Instead, I believe that the "thing" in me that experiences consciousness is identically one and the same as the "thing" which experiences consciousness in each and every other conscious entity (people, animals, whatever), and that solipsism is true from the perspective of that "thing".

Oops! Never mind what I said above. You just stated that Paul Martin is the only being in existence, and that I am also Paul Martin

I believe that that "thing" is the only thing that truly exists and that everything else, including physical reality, is a figment of that "thing's" imagination.

Here is the interesting bit. I can find a way to interpret your statement above as something other than nonsense, but when I do that it simply translates as ordinary commonsense.

What exactly did you mean with that statement that cannot be stated in more mundane terms? Are you sure you're just not giving different names to things known otherwise? For instance, if physical reality is a figment of the thing's imagination, how does that change our understanding of physics?

As for the plausibility of a BIV scenario, I believe that there is a vastly more complex structure of transcendent reality (albeit this, too, is nothing but a figment of that "thing's" imagination) in which a BIV implementation could possibly exist and which could explain the phenomena of our familiar physical reality. Although I believe in the existence of that transcendent structure, I don't believe in the truth of the BIV scenario.

I take it that most people don't think of the vat in BIV scenarios as a real vat. I believe what is being argued is that we have no way to know the true nature of that which transcends our experiences. (I may be wrong about that, but that's the best I can make of it)

If my understanding of BIV is correct, then I still can't relate to it as I can't conceive of anything which transcends our experiences (at least the ability to be experienced - sort of like materialism or physicalism, but not quite)

What do you think that reveals about me?

It reveals you and I speak slightly different languages, and that we can only establish communication about somewhat trivial things. When it gets to metaphysics, we can only agree when we reduce metaphysics to physics, which is kind of strange to me.

At the bottom of the issue is metaphysics itself. What is it, and why do people hold contradictory metaphysical views when they don't disagree about physical facts.

 

[Doctordick]

I might be misunderstanding what you mean by "absolute ignorance", but it is impossible to learn anything starting with a true blank slate.

Then I guess you do not believe in evolution. You apparently are a creationist.

There has to be a foundation to begin with. According to Kant (whom I agree with here), causality, quantity, negation... are some of the concepts of understanding we start with.

And an authoritarian to beat! I am glad he was born with the idea so you could pick up on it.

Without this foundation... everything we see, hear is just sense data... We have no framework with which to make any judgments about anything.

So the framework just appeared by magic? If you are going to believe that, what stops you from believing anything that's handed to you?

Have fun -- Dick

 

[Faust]

Can't the forum administrators do anything about this troll?

 

[learningphysics]

Then I guess you do not believe in evolution. You apparently are a creationist.

And an authoritarian to beat! I am glad he was born with the idea so you could pick up on it.
So the framework just appeared by magic? If you are going to believe that, what stops you from believing anything that's handed to you?

Have fun -- Dick

Like I said in my previous post, I'm not sure what you mean by absolute ignorance.

The point I was trying to make was that babies are born with certain concepts of understanding. I don't see why these couldn't have arrived in the species through evolution.

I don't know if you're arguing that babies are born as blank slates or not. If not, I apologize for misunderstanding.

 

[Doctordick]

The point I was trying to make was that babies are born with certain concepts of understanding. I don't see why these couldn't have arrived in the species through evolution.

And how does it arrive through evolution if concepts can not arise from a state of ignorance?

 

[learningphysics]

And how does it arrive through evolution if concepts can not arise from a state of ignorance?

When I first read "state of ignorance" I thought you meant ignorance of a specific being. I agree that concepts can arise in a species through mutation and natural selection. I guess it is possible they could arise in a living human through mutation.

I believe our everyday manner of learning builds upon concepts that are hardwired into our genes... concepts like causality and negation, unity... Just like a spider is hardwired to know how to spin a web.

Locke believed that the infant's brain was a blank slate that could be molded and shaped in any manner. This is what I was arguing against.

 

[Doctordick]

When I first read "state of ignorance" I thought you meant ignorance of a specific being. I agree that concepts can arise in a species through mutation and natural selection. I guess it is possible they could arise in a living human through mutation.

It seems to me that the statement "they could arise" can not be a very intellectually satisfying resolution of the problem. My question is "how does this arise?" If it can happen (and it most certainly has happened) then how is certainly a solvable problem. However, I can find no one who is even slightly interested in "how". And I am regarded as a "crackpot" merely because I have decided to take a serious look at the problem.

I believe our everyday manner of learning builds upon concepts that are hardwired into our genes... concepts like causality and negation, unity... Just like a spider is hardwired to know how to spin a web.

If that is the case, explain why a newborn baby cannot pass the college boards. Exactly what concepts are lacking at birth and how are these concepts acquired? Notice I said "at birth". Clearly they all have a functioning world view by the age of two. Just how was that world view acquired?

Locke believed that the infant's brain was a blank slate that could be molded and shaped in any manner. This is what I was arguing against.

That's nice. But it seems to me that what you are actually doing is presuming the problem can not be solved because you, personally, don't know how to solve it. That is not what I would call a very solid foundation. Have you been following my comments to saviormachine on the "Can Everything be Reduced to Pure Physics?" thread? Take a look at that and see if I say anything ridiculous. In fact, if you find anything I say to be unjustified and can argue your position rationally, I will take you very seriously, even if some would like to classify me as a "TROLL". (I think they just don't want their world view challenged.)

Have fun -- Dick

 

[Tournesol]

I believe our everyday manner of learning builds upon concepts that are hardwired into our genes... concepts like causality and negation, unity... Just like a spider is hardwired to know how to spin a web.

If that is the case, explain why a newborn baby cannot pass the college boards. Exactly what concepts are lacking at birth and how are these concepts acquired? Notice I said "at birth". Clearly they all have a functioning world view by the age of two. Just how was that world view acquired?

They cannot pass because the 'knowledge' they have is of an extremely
general nature and needs to be made much more specific and detailed.
How that more detailed knowledge is acquired is on the basis of
certain underlying, innate skills like Chomsky's universal grammar.

That's nice. But it seems to me that what you are actually doing is presuming the problem can not be solved because you, personally, don't know how to solve it.

The rest of us know there is no such thing as knwoedge-from-absolute-ignorance, or a completely blank slate, as far as individuals are concerned because centuries of scientific
and philosophical endevour tell us so. Read Kant, Chomsky, Pinker, etc.

If you are talking in an evolutionary context, you should make that clear.

 

[Doctordick]

The rest of us know there is no such thing as knwoedge-from-absolute-ignorance, or a completely blank slate, as far as individuals are concerned because centuries of scientific and philosophical endevour tell us so. Read Kant, Chomsky, Pinker, etc.

Yeah, and man will never fly either! People are always ready to admit that they are not necessarily infallible; except for the issue they are currently arguing.

If you are talking in an evolutionary context, you should make that clear.

Because I am not. I do not believe the egg and sperm cells are hard wired to understand Shakespeare or Linear A. And even if you do believe that ability is hard wired in, the problem of explaining the final result is still there. How did evolution accomplish it? "From dust we came and to dust we return." That seems to be pretty brilliant dust! As far as I can tell, the only solution to the problem you people are willing to accept is "it was always there": i.e., the theological answer "it was created by God". Or maybe it's that old "out of sight, out of mind" thing. Perhaps you feel, if you can push the problem far enough into the past, you won't have to think about it. So be it; who am I to argue with the authorities!

Have fun -- Dick

 

[Tournesol]

Yeah, and man will never fly either! People are always ready to admit that they are not necessarily infallible; except for the issue they are currently arguing.

But you have made absolutely no cogent or relevant critique of the accepted theories whatosever (and give no sign of understanding what they are).

If you are talking in an evolutionary context, you should make that clear.

Because I am not. I do not believe the egg and sperm cells are hard wired to understand Shakespeare or Linear A.

As stated, no one else does. That would appear to be an exageration or a misunderstanding. The claim is that humans have a hardwired ability to *acquire* language. Nothing you have said touches on that -- on fact you
seem to assume that some linguistic ability is already in place.

And even if you do believe that ability is hard wired in, the problem of explaining the final result is still there. How did evolution accomplish it? "From dust we came and to dust we return." That seems to be pretty brilliant dust! As far as I can tell, the only solution to the problem you people are willing to accept is "it was always there": i.e., the theological answer "it was created by God". Or maybe it's that old "out of sight, out of mind" thing. Perhaps you feel, if you can push the problem far enough into the past, you won't have to think about it. So be it; who am I to argue with the authorities!

Evolution accompanied "it" by, essentially, trial and error. None of the
people who aer disagreeing with you thinks "it" was inexplicable or a miracle.
It is completely unclear why you think some *other* explanation of evolutionarily acquired learning strategies is acquired. In fact, it is unclear *whether* you do, since you might be laboriously re-inventing the wheel,
given the extreme unclarity of your exposition.

 

[Doctordick]

It is completely unclear why you think some *other* explanation of evolutionarily acquired learning strategies is acquired. In fact, it is unclear *whether* you do, since you might be laboriously re-inventing the wheel, given the extreme unclarity of your exposition.

From my post to the "Can Everything be Reduced to Pure Physics?" thread:

The issue is that we have come from nothing except the universe itself. Somehow, having begun with totally undefined information (what we have come to call the universe or reality) which was delivered to us via a totally undefined mechanism (what we have come to call our senses) we have constructed a very sophisticated mental model of reality which seems to be quite valid (our expectations are pretty much in line with what happens). I take that as evidence that the problem (creating a valid model of a collection of totally undefined information transformed by a totally undefined mechanism) is a solvable problem.

That is the problem I have attacked. I am not claiming that I know how "we" (human beings) did it, I am simply claiming it can be done. That is, it is a problem which can be solved. I analytically solved it over twenty years ago. And I find my solution both very reasonable and very interesting. In fact, my single greatest interest is in talking to someone about the implied consequences of that solution. [Saviormachine is] one of the very few people who has had the patience to get this far and I am actually astounded by how well [saviormachine has] managed to comprehend what I am saying. Most everyone else fails to even comprehend there is a problem here.[/color] How can one explain a solution to a problem which they refuse to admit exists?

If you can't understand that, what hope do I have of explaining anything to you.

Have fun -- Dick

 

[Tournesol]

You still haven't made it clear whether you are talking on the individual or the species level. However, the "totallly undefined" chargge seems unjustified either way. As individuals we have already taken on board a lot of information simply in learning to speak. As a species we are equipped with hard-wired competencies and strategies upon
which our ability to acquire symbolic, linguistic information is based.
You seem to be saying that since we (as a species) are not supplied with a set
of definitions or labels, we have no knowledge at all. The answer is that there
is know-how (competencies) as well as know-that (symbolic information), and the
latter grows out of the former, and we are supplied with the former.

 

[Doctordick]

You still haven't made it clear whether you are talking on the individual or the species level.

Because it makes utterly no difference. The problem is there whatever "level" you chose to examine. You just don't comprehend the problem.

However, the "totallly undefined" chargge seems unjustified either way. As individuals we have already taken on board a lot of information simply in learning to speak.

Simply learning to speak? If that is such a simple problem, how about giving me a detailed description of the procedure. Exactly how did "definition" come about? Either that fertilized egg knew the definition of something or it didn't. Totally undefined means it didn't know any definitions. If you say that is false, then tell me a "definition" it knew!

As a species we are equipped with hard-wired competencies and strategies upon which our ability to acquire symbolic, linguistic information is based.

It appears you are saying we are hard-wired to figure out definitions for undefined things: i.e., it is possible to start with undefined information and come up with definitions allowing explanation of that information.[/color]. Which is exactly the problem I have solved and which you deny exists.

Either that or you are saying that some definitions are hard-wired in. If that is the case, exactly what definitions would that be?

You seem to be saying that since we (as a species) are not supplied with a set of definitions or labels, we have no knowledge at all.

No, I am not. I am saying that, prior to definition, the information lacks "meaning": i.e., is not defined.

The answer is that there is know-how (competencies) as well as know-that (symbolic information), and the
latter grows out of the former, and we are supplied with the former.

And, before the latter grows out of the former, the former is "undefined". It follows that it must be possible to create defined structures which conform to significant relationships embedded in a body of undefined information, given enough undefined information.

As I said, "Most everyone else fails to even comprehend there is a problem here."[/color] All I am saying is that there must be a way to "create a language" of defined things given nothing but undefined things or how did language come to be? In my opinion, there is a problem here. Stated simply, the problem is that we manage to establish a method of judging or establishing our expectations with respect to totally undefined information. If we can do it, then it can be done. (Millions of babies do it every year.) "I take that as evidence that the problem (creating a valid model of a collection of totally undefined information transformed by a totally undefined mechanism) is a solvable problem."

Again, that is the problem I have attacked. I am not claiming that I know how "we" (human beings) did it, I am simply claiming it can be done. I have a solution. The question as to whether that solution is right or wrong is not a meaningful question. It is no more meaningful than asking whether the http://www.tnrdlib.bc.ca/dewey.html is right or wrong. The Dewey Decimal System is a system of establishing unique numerical labels to books so that they can be sorted and stored by those labels. If one knows the Dewey Decimal System and the library being visited is organized by the Dewey Decimal System, then specific books are quite easy to find. And lastly, the Dewey Decimal System is not a theory, it is a method.

I have invented a method of developing specific definitions to apply to undefined information such that expectations consistent with that undefined information are easy to specify. My solution to the problem of creating a valid model (an explanation = a method of quickly generating valid expectations from any given undefined information 100% consistent with that given information) is actually quite straight forward and I think anyone with a decent high school education could follow it. The problem is that I am a certified crackpot for even thinking about such things as "everyone knows it is not a solvable problem", or "there is no problem", or "we all already understand what is going on and no 'new theory' is required." In short, it is just too obvious that man can not fly.

Have fun -- Dick

 

[Paul Martin]

To Dick: IMHO, your last post here was about the best one you have written on this subject. You have described your discovery in plain English here so that I think I am finally catching on to what you have been saying. Thank you.

To everyone else: I have done a considerable amount of work over the past 5 years studying and trying to understand Dick's work ( http://home.jam.rr.com/dicksfiles/reality/Contents.htm ). I am not competent to understand it all, but I know enough mathematics so that after a lot of help from Dick, I am convinced of the correctness of the derivation of his fundamental equation at the end of his Chapter 1. I have also followed many discussions between Dick and people like yourselves and I have been disappointed in the failures to communicate in both directions.

I have gotten to know Dick as a personal friend and he is a warm, caring, friendly, happy, guy. It saddens me to see how his language gives people the impression that he is arrogant, argumentative, rude, or impertinent. This, of course, invites rejoinders that quickly deteriorate any further meaningful dialog. Please try to look past his use of language and try to come to grips with the ideas he is presenting. Take another look at his previous post and try to take what he says seriously. Then, if you are competent in math, take a look at his paper and try to find a flaw in it.

I have tried many times to summarize Dick's discovery and Dick has consistently told me that my summary is close but not complete or precise. After reading his post above, I will try once more for the benefit of the readers here and hope that some more productive exchange might result between him and some of you.

Dick tackles the problem of making sense out of a set of totally unstructured and undefined information. He describes that set of information as a completely arbitrary set of numbers, since, as he explains, it is well known that any information can be encoded in numbers. He discovered that any consistent assignment of labels to subsets of these numbers, or to the numbers themselves, along with any description of relationships among these labels which remains consistent, must obey the laws of physics. In other words, if there is a God who created the universe, then as long as the universe remains consistent, it must obey physics as we are discovering it. God had no option.

In my view, the development of his fundamental equation in Chapter 1 is a mathematical theorem stating that consistency implies his equation which in turn has the fundamental equations of physics as solutions. His Chapters 2-5 explicitly show those solutions.

I hope that someone more competent in mathematics than I am will take a serious look at Dick's paper and either show where it is in error, or give me some reassurance that I have judged it correctly.

Paul

 

[Doctordick]

To Dick: IMHO, your last post here was about the best one you have written on this subject. You have described your discovery in plain English here so that I think I am finally catching on to what you have been saying. Thank you.

Thanks for your support Paul; but I really wish you hadn't given the URL to my website. It is my experience that reading that without understanding what I am talking about just convinces people I really am a nut (I am afraid they never read it, they just scan it and misinterpret almost everything).

Over the last few years, I have discovered a lot of reasons for that misinterpretation. People's responses to my posts have been very educational. I don't think that paper is a very a good presentation. To quote that "Beetlejuice" movie, it's sort of like reading stereo instructions: you have to know what I am talking about in order to understand what I am saying. I would rewrite it except for the fact that it is essentially something I wrote almost twenty five years ago and I really hate to alter it. I did make some minor additions when I first translated it to HTML in 2002 (it's hard not to when you have to retype something).

Forty years ago, physics was the only thing I worried about understanding but the discussions have had with you and others has convinced me that the solution goes far beyond physics. If I were to rewrite it now, I would have to add a lot of stuff. I have two reasons for not doing that; first, what is it worth if no one understands my opening stuff and second, my reasoning skills are no longer what they were twenty years ago. (You kids will find out about that someday; right Paul?) At any rate, I would have preferred leading someone gently thorough the deductions so I can catch and correct misinterpretation when it occurs. If I could get someone to understand that presentation, I think a young quick mind could carry the consequences to another plane.

Which brings me back your "minor" miss-perceptions.

He discovered that any consistent assignment of labels to subsets of these numbers, or to the numbers themselves, along with any description of relationships among these labels which remains consistent, must obey the laws of physics.

Close but not quite directly on the point. What I discovered is that any internally consistent explanation of anything can be interpreted in a way which guarantees the laws of physics are valid.

In other words, if there is a God who created the universe, then as long as the universe remains consistent, it must obey physics as we are discovering it. God had no option.

No, that is not quite true, consistency is not a concept necessarily required of God's creation: that creation could have been (and may be) absolutely anything. But, if you ask for an internally consistent explanation of what you know of it, there are some things which can be said. First, it turns out that an explanation always exists no matter how random the "knowable" information is. And second, two things are required for any coherent explanation: you must conceive of some hypothetical entities (fictitious things required or implied by the explanation) which connect the causality of that explanation to the things you are explaining and the rules everything must obey (both the things being explained and the hypothetical things implied by the explanation). Both causality and consistency are aspects of that explanation and not required in the underlying information. If the explanation can be communicated via a language (a collection of symbols) then, I have proved is that there always exist an interpretation of that language (that collection of symbols) such that all the entities required in that explanation obey my equation. If you study that equation and analyze the solutions, you will discover they are essentially the laws of physics. It turns out that Physics is just a very very complex tautology. And it follows that, if I have made no errors in my development, that tautology can explain anything.

Sorry I always give you a hard time. It's just that you are so close I can't resist trying to correct you. But, I think you know that; at least I hope you do. Glad you didn't slip off that roof; I would never have guessed adding water would make it less slippery.

Have a good week end -- Dick

 

[Faust]

Thanks for your support Paul; but I really wish you hadn't given the URL to my website. It is my experience that reading that just convinces people I really am a nut

 

[Doctordick]

Ah, a deep and thoughtful response. The overwhelming logical reasoning there just blows me away. I am utterly astonished by your intellect

It is good that you enjoy yourself -- Dick

 

[Faust]

Ah, a deep and thoughtful response. The overwhelming logical reasoning there just blows me away. I am utterly astonished by your intellect

OK, let's see if I can fare better according to your judgement:

What I discovered is that any internally consistent explanation of anything can be interpreted in a way which guarantees the laws of physics are valid.

Since we already know, to a certain extent, that the laws of physics are valid, what is your comment above supposed to mean? I can only take that to mean the fact that the laws of physics are what they are has nothing to do with the way the universe is, that the same laws would work just as well in completely different universe, or any conceivable universe for that matter.

Unless I misunderstood your comment, I find it not wrong but simply trivial and unimportant. There are no other conceivable universes. I can't conceive of an universe without matter, time, space, etc. So our universe already is the whole sum of all conceivable universes, the laws of physics explain it, and your quote above is just commonsense expressed in a cumbersome way.

an explanation always exists no matter how random the "knowable" information is.

Nonsense. You define an explanation as a method to yield expectations based on historical data, but you cannot have expectations about completely random events based on historical data. If you toss a coin 100 times and get 80 heads and 20 tails, the chances of getting heads on the 101st toss is 50%, not 80%. To expect anything different from 50% is to assume causality, to assume the coin is not really random.

Again, I will give you the benefit of doubt and admit I may have misunderstood your comment. But you'll have to clarify the issue; as it stands, it doesn't make sense.

This should be enough to satisfy your desire for "intelligence". I'm looking forward to a reply; let's see if you are as good at arguing as you are at throwing insults.

 

[Tournesol]

Because it makes utterly no difference. The problem is there whatever "level" you chose to examine. You just don't comprehend the problem.

I don't comprehend that there is a problem in rooting semantic information
in linguistic competency which is itself rooted in evolutionary behaviour.
You haven't shown that there is anything at all wrong with that aproach.

Simply learning to speak? If that is such a simple problem, how about giving me a detailed description of the procedure.

See CHomsky, Pinker. I never said it was simple, I am saying that at its
core is a hardwired competency; as individuals we have to learn *a* language,
not invent one from scratch.

Exactly how did "definition" come about? Either that fertilized egg knew the definition of something or it didn't. Totally undefined means it didn't know any definitions. If you say that is false, then tell me a "definition" it knew!
It appears you are saying we are hard-wired to figure out definitions for undefined things: i.e., it is possible to start with undefined information and come up with definitions allowing explanation of that information.[/color]. Which is exactly the problem I have solved and which you deny exists.

You are thinking in the box that all language is a) entirely semantic and b) abstract.
In fact, we learn, as individuals, to associate words things by interacting
with the concrete things in the world, and on the basis of a hardwired syntactical (or proto-syntactical) competency.

Either that or you are saying that some definitions are hard-wired in. If that is the case, exactly what definitions would that be?

A syntactical comptency is hard-wired.

No, I am not. I am saying that, prior to definition, the information lacks "meaning": i.e., is not defined.

What information ? ANyway, you seem to be missing that words can be defined 'ostensively', as philosphers grandly term it. Being told that
a dog is a canine ammal is admitedly no good if you do not know what 'canine'
and 'mammal' mean, which seems to create a chicken and egg situation.
But, in fact, we learn that that is a Doggie. Ostension.

The answer is that there is know-how (competencies) as well as know-that (symbolic information), and the
latter grows out of the former, and we are supplied with the former.

And, before the latter grows out of the former, the former is "undefined".

Category error. Competence is not semantic or symbolic, so it is neither
'defined' nor 'undefined'. You are clearly thiking in a box.

It follows that it must be possible to create defined structures which conform to significant relationships embedded in a body of undefined information, given enough undefined information.

It doesn't have to be possible for an entirely semantic process to bootstrap itself from nothing because the process doesn't have to be entirely semantic in the first place. You are obsessing about the "form nothing" part when you should be looking at the "entirely semantic" part.

 

[Doctordick]

I don't comprehend ... You are clearly thiking in a box. ... you should be looking at the "entirely semantic" part.

And who is thinking in a box? I guess if you throw enough trash you can obscure anything can't you.

I have a sign above my desk which says, in large letters, "Knowledge is Power", and in small letters underneath, "and the most common abuse of that power is to use it to hide stupidity!"

Have fun -- Dick

 

[Faust]

And who is thinking in a box? I guess if you throw enough trash you can obscure anything can't you.

Ah, a deep and thoughtful response. The overwhelming logical reasoning there just blows me away. I am utterly astonished by your intellect.

I have a sign above my desk which says, in large letters, "Knowledge is Power", and in small letters underneath, "and the most common abuse of that power is to use it to hide stupidity!"

Who cares?

 

[Tournesol]

I have invented a method of developing specific definitions to apply to undefined information such that expectations consistent with that undefined information are easy to specify. My solution to the problem of creating a valid model (an explanation = a method of quickly generating valid expectations from any given undefined information 100% consistent with that given information) is actually quite straight forward and I think anyone with a decent high school education could follow it.

You may have a solution to the abstract problem of guessing which data follow on from a partial dataset, but it is only going to muddy the waters if you insist there is a real, concrete problem of "absolute ignorance".

 

[Tournesol]

Faust,

Thanks, that saved me some typing!

 

[Doctordick]

Hi Faust,

Sorry that I didn't notice your post earlier. I went to "Last Page" and got Tournesol's post. The lack of thought in that post so annoyed me that I didn't look back and I missed your post entirely. I apologize for my impatience.

Since we already know, to a certain extent, that the laws of physics are valid, what is your comment above supposed to mean?

The critical phrase in your response is that "to a certain extent". That element is not in my presentation.

I can only take that to mean the fact that the laws of physics are what they are has nothing to do with the way the universe is, that the same laws would work just as well in completely different universe, or any conceivable universe for that matter.

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying; however, I wouldn't put it exactly that way as that way of phrasing the thing is a bit misleading.

Unless I misunderstood your comment, I find it not wrong but simply trivial and unimportant. There are no other conceivable universes. I can't conceive of an universe without matter, time, space, etc. So our universe already is the whole sum of all conceivable universes, the laws of physics explain it, and your quote above is just commonsense expressed in a cumbersome way.

I can only conclude that you have misunderstood my comment. If what I said is true, it is neither trivial nor unimportant. (And I would also comment that the fact that you cannot conceive of something does not prove it is not possible. My grandmother (bless her soul) could not conceive of the world being round but that didn't prove it wasn't.)

It turns out that Physics is just a very very complex tautology.

I don't think there exists a single professional physicist who would agree with that or even consider looking at a proof of it were such a proof offered. Why do you think everyone presumes I am a crackpot without any discussion of the details of my work[/color]?

Nonsense.

Case in point.

You define an explanation as a method to yield expectations based on historical data, but you cannot have expectations about completely random events based on historical data. If you toss a coin 100 times and get 80 heads and 20 tails, the chances of getting heads on the 101st toss is 50%, not 80%. To expect anything different from 50% is to assume causality, to assume the coin is not really random.

I see the word "assume" in there. That's a very important word. You are missing a subtle but serious point about "historical data". Your example, "If you toss a coin 100 times and get 80 heads and 20 tails, the chances of getting heads on the 101st toss is 50%, not 80%." is based on what? What you appear to be assuming is that the term "historical data" is limited to that 100 coin tosses. Think about that for a moment. If an event (which you call a coin toss) has only occurred 100 times in the history of the universe (as far as you know) and the outcome was 80 heads and 20 tails, would you seriously set forth that your expectations for the 101st trial would be 50/50? It should be clear to you that such an expectation is based on some theory as to what is going on. Either your theory is based on those 100 events (and nothing else) or you have conceptually short changed us with regard to what is included in that "historical data". What I am trying to point out is that the historical outcome must be consistent with your theory of what is going on.

Again, I will give you the benefit of doubt and admit I may have misunderstood your comment. But you'll have to clarify the issue; as it stands, it doesn't make sense.

Fifty years ago (god it is hard to believe it was that long ago), when I was college student taking German as a "foreign language requirement", I had a lot of trouble with gender identity of nouns (in English the answer is pretty clear) . The idea that one was supposed to use a different word for "the" depending upon the sex of an inanimate object was, to say the least, "foreign to me". I had great difficulty trying to remember the sex of different objects (factories are female, stools are male, days are neutral, etc., etc., ... ). I commented about my problem to a friend who seemed to have no difficulty with the issue. He said, "Oh that's easy, most everything can be seen as male, female or neutral." And he began to rattle off the characteristics which determined that gender. A factory was female because it was more important what went in it than what came out. A stool was male because it had three legs. A pasture was female because it was pleasant to go out and lay down on top of it. And on and on. Some of his sexual images could not be put here. A person would have to be pretty dumb to think that the reasons he gave were the real reasons behind the identifications ;though, as he was of German decent, he might have known something I didn't know. The real issue was that he had established a complex memory aid to make the identifications easy. What had he done? He had created imaginary characteristics which he associated with these objects that fulfilled their sexual identity. Once he had those attached, his intuition told him what gender to use without thinking about the question.

The point being, if one is bright enough, one can come up with an explanation for anything. And secondly, when it comes to creating an explanation, what do you have to go by other than the past ("historical data")? The first requirement of any "explanation" is that, what you experienced in the past, must be what you would have expected if you had known the explanation was correct. If the "explanation" is inconsistent with the "historical data" no scientist on Earth would accept it as a valid explanation. Two very important ideas are embedded in that statement: explanations are destroyed by adding data to that "historical data" (new information amounts to adding future events to what is already known) and the description of "historical data" often changes when that new information becomes part of the "historical data" (for example, the fact that you could lie down on a field was an important issue). By the way, "random" is a word for a particular explanation: if something is "random" it means that the specific outcome is not predictable. I didn't say the explanation yielded the specific events (though I did prove there exists one which will), I said the explanation (which you accept) predicts your expectations, quite a different thing.

The fact that a specifc exact solution exists does not imply that is a solution you want. The problem with any explanation which yields exactly the specific "historical data" is that it will most probably be disproved with the next piece of data added. If you would take a serious look at my work, I think you would understand that. Fundamentally, a power series fit can fit any finite set of available data. In fact there always exists a power series solution which will fit any finite data plus one new point exactly (for any given value of that "new" point). Since there are an infinite number of possibilities for that "new" point, it should be clear that there are an infinite number of power series solutions which will fit the original finite set. If the requirement is to be that the "explanation" produces the entire historical record specifically and exactly, then the probability that the next piece of data will not destroy that explanation is exactly zero: obtained by dividing that one correct result by the infinite number of possible erroneous results.

This should be enough to satisfy your desire for "intelligence". I'm looking forward to a reply; let's see if you are as good at arguing as you are at throwing insults.

I never meant to throw any insults and I apologize if you felt insulted by what I said. If you would present more reasoned responses, I would be more considerate in my answers. I presume your response is based on a cursory examination of the URL Paul Martin referred to. As I said in my reply to Paul, "I am afraid they never read it, they just scan it and misinterpret almost everything". What I presented is not trivial and understanding what I am saying takes careful thought. If you really want to make an attempt to follow it logically (and point out any errors in my presentation) I would be willing to help you understand my arguments. But, if you just want to obscure the thoughts presented there (which seems to be Tournesol's sole purpose), I really wouldn't be interested.

Have fun -- Dick

 

[Faustus]

Sorry that I didn't notice your post earlier. I went to "Last Page" and got Tournesol's post. The lack of thought in that post so annoyed me that I didn't look back and I missed your post entirely. I apologize for my impatience.

I think it's really bad when you accuse people of doing things you often do yourself. But that's a personal thing, it doesn't really matter.

The critical phrase in your response is that "to a certain extent". That element is not in my presentation.

I said "to a certain extent" because it's possible that our current laws of physics might break down in some specific situation, just like Newtonian mechanics breaks down at relativistic speeds, and all that yada-yada. The fundamental issue is that science does not make claims to absolute truth, only to working models. If you want to claim the absolute truth of modern physics, I'm OK with it as long as you can provide proof, which you say you do. I'm only clarifying what I meant anyway.

I can only conclude that you have misunderstood my comment. If what I said is true, it is neither trivial nor unimportant. (And I would also comment that the fact that you cannot conceive of something does not prove it is not possible. My grandmother (bless her soul) could not conceive of the world being round but that didn't prove it wasn't.)

Misunderstanding abounds... I'm sure you didn't understand what I meant by "conceivable universe". It was certainly not to be taken as something as naive as your grandmother's beliefs about the shape of the earth.

It seems to me you placed too much emphasis on "universe", when to me the important point was "conceivable". I did not say it is impossible for unconceivable universes to exist, all I said was that it is impossible for us to conceive of an unconceivable universe. It's an almost silly statement put that way, but the bottom line is we can't avoid the concepts we have already conceived to describe whatever it is that we describe with those concepts. It's true not only of the physical universe, but also of economics, history, geography, and any intellectual endeavor.

One could go even further and say that the science of physics is a logical consequence of the concepts we use to describe the physical universe.

I don't think there exists a single professional physicist who would agree [that Physics is just a very very complex tautology] or even consider looking at a proof of it were such a proof offered.

I don't know about that. In what way do you think Newton's three laws of motion are not tautologies?

Why do you think everyone presumes I am a crackpot without any discussion of the details of my work?

People usually don't bother examining extraordinary claims unaccompanied by extraordinary evidence. If you are right, what does it mean and how can we verify it?

You are missing a subtle but serious point about "historical data". Your example, "If you toss a coin 100 times and get 80 heads and 20 tails, the chances of getting heads on the 101st toss is 50%, not 80%." is based on what?

Based on the fact that there can only be two outcomes, and that I don't know what determines a particular outcome. If I say future outcomes are a function of the past, I'm assuming there is a reason why I get more heads than tails. I'm assuming causality.

I don't think you understood my point. I was trying to address your notion of "completely random" as opposed to causal. If you believe you're getting 80 heads and 20 tails as a result of chance, you must state the probability of the next toss as 50-50. If you believe you're getting 80-20 because there is a reason for it (real or imaginary), then the outcome is not completely random and you are, essentially, implying causality.

What you appear to be assuming is that the term "historical data" is limited to that 100 coin tosses. Think about that for a moment. If an event (which you call a coin toss) has only occurred 100 times in the history of the universe (as far as you know) and the outcome was 80 heads and 20 tails, would you seriously set forth that your expectations for the 101st trial would be 50/50? It should be clear to you that such an expectation is based on some theory as to what is going on.

Any expectation is based on some theory of what you think you know about what is going on. It's as much an assumption to think the chance is 80-20 as it is to think it's 50-50, and the assumption has nothing to do with the phenomenon being observed. The key issue here is that you are making a prediction about the future - a statement about what you don't know - an assumption! To predict the future, by any means, is to assume. You can't avoid that.

What I am trying to point out is that the historical outcome must be consistent with your theory of what is going on.

If a toin coss is completely random, the probability of getting 80 heads and 20 tails in 100 tosses is small but still higher than zero. Any probabilistic explanation that doesn't exclude real possibilities cannot be proved wrong, no matter how many times the coin is tossed.

if one is bright enough, one can come up with an explanation for anything.

Which is why the world is full of crackpots. Most explanations are useless, even if they are true.

And secondly, when it comes to creating an explanation, what do you have to go by other than the past ("historical data")?

Logic. You can create a tautology which is always true no matter what the historical data is.

Well, that is a lot already and I think I covered the most important points.

I never meant to throw any insults and I apologize if you felt insulted by what I said. If you would present more reasoned responses, I would be more considerate in my answers. I presume your response is based on a cursory examination of the URL Paul Martin referred to.

It wasn't a response, I didn't even check the url before writing it. I was just laughing at something you said in your post. You probably didn't mean it, but it sounded funny nonetheless.