In your opinion, what is the highest value a society should strive towards?

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In your opinion, what is the highest value a society should strive towards?


  • Total voters
    39
  • #51
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Archon said:
Ha! I know precisely because I'm not enlightened! If procrastination was enlightened, then I would be enlightened. Since I'm not, procrastination isn't either.
False Dichotomy. Enlightenment can involve much more than just procrastination. Thus, you can easily be a procrastinator and not have achieved full enlightenment. Enlightenment is a journey as well as a destination.
 
  • #52
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pattylou said:
WWII: (Pearl Harbor and) mistreatment of jews.
uhh.... What about mistreatment of japanese and germans?

Why do we always forget our own crimes?
 
  • #53
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Smurf said:
Siddhartha then. Sue me.
taking legal action seems to be the first response, nowadays, huh? silly, i think.

i will not sue you, but i should suggest that you first become aware of your ignorances and assumptions, BEFORE you let them shine all over a mesage board.
 
  • #54
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Smurf said:
uhh.... What about mistreatment of japanese and germans?
Why do we always forget our own crimes?
Were those the basis of our going to war? I was under the impression that they were the result of war. They led to other troubles of course....

But my education was extremely poor on the flaws in American policy in this time frame, and your point is taken.
 
  • #55
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pattylou said:
I doubt that this is the case, certainly not all of the time, but I think the idea that we base our choices on our life history makes perfect sense. I can't tell if you are being sarcastic in this response or not, so I'll assume you are not.
I was not being sarcastic. I realized that the answer is kinda obvious after I posted, but I let it be, thinking that perhaps people hold certain higher ideals regardless of their more immediate experiences (assuming they have access to certain information).

Also, I'm not entirely sure what you're doubting here. Are you doubting that I "see", that my reaction was based off of recent experiences, or what?
 
  • #56
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Pattylou.
You still havent defined what a "White" person is?
:-)
I understand what you are getting at, but I still want a definition.. will you give me one?
Americans seem to use this expresion a lot.. A "White" person of European heritage.. But what does that mean? I know many Europeans (I am one of them) who are Darker than northern Africans, this is due to my Greek heritage...
 
  • #57
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Smasherman said:
Also, I'm not entirely sure what you're doubting here. Are you doubting that I "see", that my reaction was based off of recent experiences, or what?
Oh, I see, Pattylou. My reaction came from some recent experiences I've had.
I 'doubt' that most participants base their choices on recent emotional experience. I actually expect that most participants here base their choices on reason and evidence and rational thought. I expect most privileged individuals can understand the problems with a class society, even if they have not experienced the down side of it directly. That's all.

And, I expect our experiences shape our choices.
 
  • #58
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False Dichotomy. Enlightenment can involve much more than just procrastination. Thus, you can easily be a procrastinator and not have achieved full enlightenment. Enlightenment is a journey as well as a destination.
you tell him obi1
 
  • #59
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Anttech said:
Pattylou.
You still havent defined what a "White" person is?
:-)
I understand what you are getting at, but I still want a definition.. will you give me one?
Americans seem to use this expresion a lot.. A "White" person of European heritage.. But what does that mean? I know many Europeans (I am one of them) who are Darker than northern Africans, this is due to my Greek heritage...
I would define "white" as the US census bureaus uses it. This definition is lacking, increasingly moreso as 'races' become more intermixed.

To a first approximation, the US census bureau has the following categories: Asian, Black, Hispanic, White, Native American, ... ( A few others I may be forgetting.) The census bureau is revising its definitions of race, however, and my use of the term may indicate not only my American upbringing but also my age.

Meditteranean isn't in the mix, so you'd be white even with your greek heritage.

ειλικρινώσ,

(I hope that translated right),

Patty

p.s. I realize I still didn't actually define it, let me know if you want me to google the Census Bureau's actual definition.
 
  • #60
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Nah.. I didnt want a "census Bureaus" definition.. I wanted yours being an american..

So this is more or a "geographic" definition rather than colour? It seems that way, as for example a Morrocan isnt Black, isnt White, isnt Asian..

καταλάβετε ελληνικά? :-)
 
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  • #61
loseyourname
Staff Emeritus
Gold Member
1,749
5
The Census Bureau recognizes Caucasian, Asian, African, and Native American as races. People of Hispanic descent get to mark that they're Hispanic, but the box is auxiliary and they're still counted as Caucasian. The categories are geographic. You're Caucasian if you're of European or Russian descent, Asian if you're of Asian descent, African if of African descent, and Native American if of American descent. Since a great deal of people in the US are of mixed descent, especially in the east LA area that I worked as an enumerator, we were instructed that a respondent just picks whatever race he/she self-identifies most as.

Edit: It's worth mentioning that this practice of recording races in these four categories began during the Nixon administration, well before we had the genetic knowledge that we have today, and realistically speaking, they're pretty much meaningless. Even for recording self-identification, they aren't all that useful, as the Latinos in Southern California hate having to list themselves as Caucasian and definitely do not think of themselves that way.
 
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  • #62
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pattylou said:
I 'doubt' that most participants base their choices on recent emotional experience. I actually expect that most participants here base their choices on reason and evidence and rational thought. I expect most privileged individuals can understand the problems with a class society, even if they have not experienced the down side of it directly. That's all.
And, I expect our experiences shape our choices.
I was referring to my reaction to your posts, not my decision on the poll.
 
  • #63
Patty said:
TSA: You asked what I think equality means. To me, it means recognizing that every person is a human being, and that the actions towards one group could have easily been directed against a different group had the dice (historical events) fallen differently. It also means recognizing the connectivity of actions and people on the planet. When one group treats another group in a particular way, there are ramifications for the first group.... snip
Don't you think this is better defined as liberty? All people having freedom including freedom from the oppression of one another? In essence all people are equal in their inalienable rights. The word "Equality" does not mean people are free or happy or well off. In a society where everyone is oppressed by the law they are all equal. Then there is the fact that you are not using the term "equality" fully. You're restricting your usage to simply the equality of rights. There are several other attributes that can be "unequal" between people.

The problem I see myself with the term "equality" is that it helps reenforce the division that it seeks to negate. It focuses on the inequality and creates a victim mentality on both sides. Those with the short end of the stick become indignant and feel they are owed something by those on the high end and begin to discriminate against them. Those with the better deal become indignant because they feel they deserve what they have and that those with the short end of the stick want to "steal" from them in order to "equalize" the situation. This creates a people who have devided into enemies.
Do you remember the legislation they tried to pass making all people equal for hire a while back? It said that it will be illegal to make hiring decisions based on religion, sex, race, creed, yada yada yada. Who shot it down? The people who say they want "equality". Why do you think they'd do that?
 
  • #64
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Anttech: Let me say simply that I don't "believe" in race but that I brought up "white" as a matter of convenience since most people kind of "get the drift." So, I don't have a definition for you .... but I would hold that use of the term is still expedient in sopme cases.

Smasherman: It looks like we had a miscommunication, and I apologise. Sounds like my "I doubt that" was taking something out of context.

TSA: I'm OK with that, I don't think we need to get hung up on the distinctions between words as similar as "equality" and "Liberty" (especially as any word can be modified by its use by a particular group, ex: "moral values.") In other words, if we agree on the sentiment, then the exact terminology is not very important. Still, I'd pick "equality" as being more in line with the sense of any particular life being equal in worth to any other, over "liberty."
 
  • #65
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Anntech:

καταλάβετε ελληνικά?

Ummm, at a guess, "do I speak greek?"

No, but I love baklava and line dancing. Grape leaves, olive,s the works.

My father was mediterranean (sicilian) and a good friend was greek. She made us Easter babka (or whatever the appropriate greek name is) complete with a penny inside, although I never got the penny.
 
  • #66
Patty said:
TSA: I'm OK with that, I don't think we need to get hung up on the distinctions between words as similar as "equality" and "Liberty" (especially as any word can be modified by its use by a particular group, ex: "moral values.") In other words, if we agree on the sentiment, then the exact terminology is not very important. Still, I'd pick "equality" as being more in line with the sense of any particular life being equal in worth to any other, over "liberty."
I think that the differences between words, however subtle, are rather important. The usage of these words tends to reflect and influence a persons perspective. You were interested in the reasons why any one might pick one over another weren't you?
I'm sorry for coming off so argumentative.:redface:
I definitely respect you and your opinions Patty and I hope I haven't made you feel otherwise.
 
  • #67
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Liberty and equality are luxuries, not necessities. People today are brainwashed with this "give me liberty or give me death" attitude.

I almost chose preservation of life, but I went with enlightment instead.
 
  • #68
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TheStatutoryApe said:
I think that the differences between words, however subtle, are rather important. The usage of these words tends to reflect and influence a persons perspective.
But your definition of "equality" is evidently different than mine.

Are you suggesting that I adapt to your definitions? Or, alternatively, as I tried to indicate above, that we recognize that we have different definitions to begin with?

Thank you for the kind words.
 
  • #69
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why would anyone want to live in a world where everyone is "equal" to each other? Without difference, there is no life.
 
  • #70
356
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equal does not mean identicle.
 
  • #71
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Ultimately it does, because in an emerging system such a society, much like in nature, new features will appear at unequal rates and of unequal quality when let loose.

If every element is to stay the same in relation to every other element, you need them to have the same properties to begin with, such as spheres thrown into a cylinder. But man and woman are emphatically not equal to anyone else, and bringing them into equality-compliance necessitates brutal edge-crushing mechanisms.

Equality is the cornerstone of totalitarianism, stagnation, and a nightmare of desolation and lifelessness.
 
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  • #72
288
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Well, this is not the sense in which we are using the word.

I would have thought it obvious, but evidently not....

A rose is sometimes better that a lily, and sometimes worse. It is fair to consider them roughly equal overall. More roses are sold at valentines, more lilies at easter. Some gardens have one, some the other.

Same with a grilled steak, and fried chicken.

I am sorry that you are interpreting equal to mean identical. We can all easily agree that we would not like to live in a a society where everyone is identical. Thank you for helping make that point.

However, most of us *would* like to live in a society where we can be valued as either a steak or a chicken, depending on our nature and circumstance, and know that we will be valued as much as the person who was the other, through circumstance.

If flower shops insisted on selling only roses, this would be similar to a society in which one group is valued extraordinarily more than another group, for reasons that make no particular rational sense.
 
  • #73
HoNoR

(I guess you can call it "Concius" (conciencia en espanol) if you want to.

I think if you are really Proud about your actions and aware of your responsability as a human being, everything kind of folds into place, after all is No Soap or perfume strong enogh in the world to clean you Dirty consius and the Ill effects of a act comited, generate or Omited for selfish reasons, and if you just made a honest mistake you Honor will come to the rescue and fix whatever when wrong .

No.... I'm not religius, selfish or even mistical...
In fact I think Honor plays a integral roll in any society if is focus as a comun benefit since everybody will do the best they can for the benefit of the whole.

yeah i know is a little idealistic but somebody needs to start somewere.
 
  • #74
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pattylou said:
Smasherman: It looks like we had a miscommunication, and I apologise. Sounds like my "I doubt that" was taking something out of context.
It seems so. Sorry for my part in this miscommunication.
 
  • #75
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So if I *value* a homeless person the same as a billionaire, am I living in the spirit of equality, or some action to bring one up and the other down is essential as well? Where do we stop in producing equality? Do we handicap bright people from becoming rich, and reward imbeciles who will otherwise become homeless? What qualities other than economic conditions, such as sexual access, are in need of redistribution? How is it fair that good-looking men get most of the good-looking women?
 

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