Integration of Tsiolkovsky rocket equation

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the integration of the Tsiolkovsky rocket equation, specifically focusing on the mathematical steps involved in deriving the change in velocity (\Delta V) from the differential form of the equation. Participants explore the assumptions necessary for integrating the equation and the implications of using logarithmic functions in the context of mass and velocity.

Discussion Character

  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the validity of canceling "dt" in the differential equation and seeks clarification on the assumptions needed for integration.
  • Another participant suggests multiplying both sides by dt and integrating, providing substitutions for the variables involved.
  • A later reply acknowledges the substitution method and expresses gratitude for the clarification.
  • Further, a participant references the fundamental theorem of calculus to explain the integration process and the relationship between the variables.
  • Another participant raises a concern about the omission of absolute value signs in logarithmic integration and discusses the implications of positive versus negative values in this context.
  • One participant argues that the absolute value sign is unnecessary in this case since mass is always positive, providing reasoning based on the properties of logarithmic functions.
  • Finally, a participant expresses appreciation for the clarification regarding the absolute value issue.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the integration process and the use of substitutions, but there is some uncertainty regarding the treatment of absolute values in logarithmic functions. The discussion does not reach a consensus on this subtlety.

Contextual Notes

Participants discuss the assumptions related to the mass being positive and the implications of using logarithmic functions without absolute values. The mathematical steps and reasoning are explored, but no definitive resolution is reached regarding the absolute value concern.

LogicalTime
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In the Tsiolkovsky rocket equation derivation there is a part that says:

\frac{dV}{dt} = -\upsilon_e \frac{1}{m} \frac{dm}{dt}
"Assuming v_e, is constant, this may be integrated to yield:"

\Delta V\ = v_e \ln \frac {m_0} {m_1}

How does this work? The differential is an operator and I am pretty sure you just can't cancel the dt. I wonder what assumptions are needed to be able to legally just remove the "dt"s though.

Thanks!
 
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LogicalTime said:
In the Tsiolkovsky rocket equation derivation there is a part that says:

\frac{dV}{dt} = -\upsilon_e \frac{1}{m} \frac{dm}{dt}
"Assuming v_e, is constant, this may be integrated to yield:"

\Delta V\ = v_e \ln \frac {m_0} {m_1}

How does this work? The differential is an operator and I am pretty sure you just can't cancel the dt. I wonder what assumptions are needed to be able to legally just remove the "dt"s though.

Thanks!

Multiply both sides by dt, and then integrate both sides to get:

\int \frac{dV}{dt} dt = \int -\upsilon_e \frac{1}{m} \frac{dm}{dt} dt

Now, the left side can be given the substitution u=V, du/dt= dV/dt or du = dV/dt dt. The right side can be given the substitution w=m, dw = dm/dt dt, thus turning your equation into...

\int du = \int -\upsilon_e \frac{1}{w} dw

And both sides of those can obviously be integrated.
 
Thank you for helping me to see the substitution. :-)
 
You can also look at it this way:

\int_{t_0}^{t_f} dt~\frac{dV}{dt} = V(t_f) - V(t_0)
by the fundamental theorem of calculus.

Similarly,

\int_{t_0}^{t_f}dt~\frac{1}{m}\frac{dm}{dt} = \int_{t_0}^{t_f}dt~\frac{d}{dt}\left(\ln m(t) \right) = \ln m(t_f) - \ln m(t_0) = \ln\left(\frac{m(t_f)}{m(t_0)}\right),
again due to the fundamental theorem. We also recognized that d(\ln m(t))/dt = (1/m) dm/dt.
 
Thanks! Another way to see it.

One further detail:
I think we have been leaving out the absolute value sign.
\int \frac{1}{w} dw = \ln |w| + c

However wiki says this is true:

\frac{d}{dw} \ln(w) = \frac{1}{w}

Assuming that is true then using the fundamental theorem of calc we would get an answer without the absolute value. I am not sure how to reconcile that. Do you guys understand this subtlety?
 
We could have written the absolute value sign when we integrated, but m is presumably the mass, which is never negative, so we don't need it in this case. The absolute value sign appears in infinite integrals when it's not specified whether the variable is positive or negative, or in definite integrals when you know for sure the variable is negative (and don't feel like writing \ln (-x) all the time).

If x is positive:

\frac{d}{dx}\ln x = \frac{1}{x}

If x is negative, only ln(-x) makes sense, since the argument of the log must be positive. So:

\frac{d}{dx}\ln(-x) = \frac{1}{-x}(-1) = \frac{1}{x}

Since the derivative of both ln(x) and ln(-x) gives 1/x, we can write this in compact form saying the derivative of ln|x| is 1/x.

(Note also that ln(ax) has a derivative of 1/x. So, if you differentiate ln(ax), to get it back when you integrate, you can write the arbitrary constant as ln(a), which gives back ln(ax)).
 
Last edited:
Nice, that clears that up as well. Thank you!
 

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