News Interpreting the 2nd Amendment: Literalism and Intent in Gun Laws

[turbo]

An army made up of citizens gathered together with their arms. They would hide in the woods and snipe off British soldiers, i.e. unconventional warfare.

Some could snipe quite effectively - those that owned rifles. Unfortunately, rifles were VERY slow to load, as you had to push patched balls down a really long barrel after charging. Muskets load a lot faster - they are smooth-bore and don't require a lot of ramming. The lucky (or wealthy) colonials had nice rifles and could shoot accurately at long distances. The rest of them had to rely on British muskets "liberated" from militia armories, foreign muskets purchased from friendly governments, and big ungainly fowling pieces. Fowling pieces could not stand a whole lot of breech pressure, but they could throw a lot of lead balls (like a shotgun) and in those days, if you managed to produce wounds in foot-soldiers, they would often succumb to infections, gangrene, etc.

 

[vertices]

Are you saying that the UK citizens more violent than the US citizens? Because we here in the US have great access to guns and we don't have massacres on a daily basis. I don't get your logic.

No I am not. Someone else linked to an article which suggested that.

You still have the fourth highest firearm related death rate. You're up there with Brazil - does that not worry you?

 

[drankin]

Well thanks for pointing this out. Ofcourse I meant the "Total firearm-related death rate" rather than the "homocide death rate":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate#cite_note-Kaiser_2004-1

In anycase, how does that take away from the point I was making?

Suicides really don't count. How many of those would have chosen another method if a gun were not convenient? We have no way of knowing.

 

[Argentum Vulpes]

Could we get a point straight please, guns do not kill people, they are a tool used by human beings to kill other people. If your concern is that people are killing other people then don't go after the tool because that doesn't solve the problem.

If I really wanted to kill some one there is bows, compound bows, or crossbows. Plenty of broad head arrows that will do the job, knifes also work. Zip guns are very easy to make. Cars and trucks to run people over. Explosives are easy to make, and plenty of other easy ways to kill someone.

Frankly also if you don't live in the USA how dose it harm you if our gun control laws are in you option lax? If I were to bring my, let's say .45 APC Tommy gun with several 100 round drum mags into the UK I'd be breaking the law in the UK and my property would be up for seizure. Back in the USA it is perfectly legal. If you don't like the laws of a certain country don't visit or do business with that country. However don't go enforcing your morality on that country (BTW isn't that why the world hated the US and GWB because we were enforcing our will on another country).

 

[drankin]

No I am not. Someone else linked to an article which suggested that.

You still have the fourth highest firearm related death rate. You're up there with Brazil - does that not worry you?

Again, disregarding suicides and accidents, we have a lower rate than the rest of the world combined while having the most access to firearms. Coming from the same link Office_Shredder shared.

Aren't we more concerned about the intentional use of a firearm on another person anyhow? Not accidents and suicides. If you want to go down those rabbit holes, there is plenty of things in our daily life to compare to that are more dangerous, statistically.

 

[vertices]

Could we get a point straight please, guns do not kill people, they are a tool used by human beings to kill other people. If your concern is that people are killing other people then don't go after the tool because that doesn't solve the problem.

If I really wanted to kill some one there is bows, compound bows, or crossbows. Plenty of broad head arrows that will do the job, knifes also work. Zip guns are very easy to make. Cars and trucks to run people over. Explosives are easy to make, and plenty of other easy ways to kill someone.

Frankly also if you don't live in the USA how dose it harm you if our gun control laws are in you option lax? If I were to bring my, let's say .45 APC Tommy gun with several 100 round drum mags into the UK I'd be breaking the law in the UK and my property would be up for seizure. Back in the USA it is perfectly legal. If you don't like the laws of a certain country don't visit or do business with that country. However don't go enforcing your morality on that country (BTW isn't that why the world hated the US and GWB because we were enforcing our will on another country).

I find this logic a little bit silly. Ofcourse people kill people, but guns make it so much easier to kill people.

Say, you've got a paranoid schizophrenic, malignant narcissist or psychopath hell bent on killing as many people he can. He could just walk into a shopping centre (aka 'mall') and mow down dozens of people within 20 seconds. How long would it take to kill the same number of people with crossbows? The person would likely be overpowered after killing the first person.

Guns are literally killing machines that can do way more damage than any other weapon.

And btw no one here is looking to enforce their morality on anyone:)

 

[vertices]

Again, disregarding suicides and accidents, we have a lower rate than the rest of the world combined while having the most access to firearms. Coming from the same link Office_Shredder shared.

Aren't we more concerned about the intentional use of a firearm on another person anyhow? Not accidents and suicides. If you want to go down those rabbit holes, there is plenty of things in our daily life to compare to that are more dangerous, statistically.

Well it does stand to reason that it is much easier for people to commit suicide with a gun. What are the alternatives - hanging themselves? taking a paracetamol overdose?

A bit of perspective - the total suicide rate in America is 11.1 and the firearm related suicide rate is 7.35 - almost three quarters of the total. If you work it out, 65 people commit suicide by using a firearm each day. I would guess substantial number wouldn't commit suicide if they did not have access to a firearm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

 

[pallidin]

My interpretation is this: Technically, the "right to bear arms" is to be equal to the government. This is to prevent or mitigate government military overthrow of the populace.

 

[Argentum Vulpes]

I find this logic a little bit silly. Ofcourse people kill people, but guns make it so much easier to kill people.

Say, you've got a paranoid schizophrenic, malignant narcissist or psychopath hell bent on killing as many people he can. He could just walk into a shopping centre (aka 'mall') and mow down dozens of people within 20 seconds. How long would it take to kill the same number of people with crossbows? The person would likely be overpowered after killing the first person.

Guns are literally killing machines that can do way more damage than any other weapon.

And btw no one here is looking to enforce their morality on anyone:)

That said mentally deficient person could still get into a large vehicle and go down to a local farmers market, or board walk and run over people. Should we ban everything with a GVW of more then a person? Also that same person could construct a very potent bomb out of stuff that is gotten off the shelf. Should we ban diesel fuel and fertilizer?

As for the mall shooting well look at the Trolley Square shooting of 2007. The off duty cop was breaking the rules of that mall when he entered the mall with a concealed gun. The mall was a gun free zone. Also look at how many other massacres happen in gun free zones, how many happen at NRA gun shows where almost everyone is packing concealed or open carry.

And finally please answer my earlier question how dose the lax, in your option, gun laws in the USA affect you in the UK?

 

[Cyrus]

In anycase, how does that take away from the point I was making?

Well, quite frankly, you're not making any point here - only missing it. What you should be arguing is better enforcement of the gun laws we do have, and tougher sentences in the courts for violations.

 

[Cyrus]

You still have the fourth highest firearm related death rate. You're up there with Brazil - does that not worry you?

Sure, it worries all Americans, but it is irrelevant to the 2nd amendment. Show me where the 2nd amendment says anything about death rates, and how that should factor into the validity of the right to bear arms. Hint: it doesn't say that anywhere, and for good reason.

 

[Cyrus]

Ofcourse there is a remote possibility that a tyrannical dictatorship may take control in America - and for sure, everyone should rise up against them.

However, any rational government must assess policies (or lack thereof) in terms of their likely consequences - ideals are all well and good, but if adhering to them causes the (largely avoidable) death of a hundred people each day, they should, quite frankly, be dispensed with.

Do us all a favor, buy a book on american history and go read it before arguing your point.

No but it is relevant. The tendency to romanticise about the circumstances that lead to enshrinement the 2nd Amendment distracts people from real consequences of weak gun laws.

Again, no. It's not 'romanticizing' anything, it's that you not understanding a fundamental point about american history - the importance of a well armed citizenry.

Sure, if you think that having the 4th highest homocide rate in the world isn't a problem?

<shrug> This has no bearing on the 2nd amendment. It was not put there to deter homicide rates.

Someone on this thread talked about UK being the knife 'capital' of the world - just imagine if the perpetrators of such violence had access to guns - we'd have massacres in London on a daily basis.

Complete and total (baseless) nonsense.----------------------------------
You are arguing straw men about the 2nd amendment. You can quote numbers and statistics until you are blue in the face - but you continue to miss the point!

 

[Office_Shredder]

Well thanks for pointing this out. Ofcourse I meant the "Total firearm-related death rate" rather than the "homocide death rate":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate#cite_note-Kaiser_2004-1

In anycase, how does that take away from the point I was making?

We have more firearms than many nations, and end up having more firearm related deaths than those nations. That's a shock. If we banned firearms, would they just use other things to kill?

First note that the bulk of those deaths are from suicide. Let's take a closer look

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

We're down at number 41 there! So no, our suicide rate is not being driven to the top by firearms, our firearm death rate is being driven to the top by suicides. But that's not making our country wildly successful at suicide compared to other nations. The high death by firearm rate is an illusion, and there's no convincing evidence that banning firearms would drop the death rate

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Well thanks for pointing this out. Ofcourse I meant the "Total firearm-related death rate" rather than the "homocide death rate":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate#cite_note-Kaiser_2004-1

In anycase, how does that take away from the point I was making?

You raise concern about the dangers of guns to US citizens. Wouldn't homicide rate be the statistic of concern here? We have a higher "firearm related" death rate (a significant portion of which is suicide) because we have more guns. But the homicide rate is not so much higher than in Europe. If there are fewer guns and less concern of being murdered in Europe than you would imagine in America and the homicide rate is very close then from where do you derive the conclusion that there is a greater concern for citizen welfare in the US due to guns? Apparently people are murdered just as readily in other parts of the world regardless of gun statistics.

The NRA (infact all lobbying in general) undermines democracy. They get the executive to 'influence' the judiciary, and I think that is a bad thing.

The executive has no influence over the Judicial branch excepting that (s)he is president and is more likely to have their ear than the average person. Lobbbyists (and you and I and our grandmothers too) are capable of submitting amicus briefs to the court and that is about the only influence that they can possibly have on the court.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Federal law does regulate ownership in many ways, although the "assault weapons ban" itself has expired. For example, mere possession of an unregistered automatic weapon is a federal crime, and only grandfathered weapons may be registered and transferred at $200 each (last I heard), background check, and a couple months wait. And federal laws are enforced even if the weapon in question was never involved in interstate commerce, such as home-built or manufactured and sold in-state.

As far as the types of weapons covered by the 2nd amendment, it seems obvious that weapons suitable for battle are the type covered. Anti-gun folks commonly cite the Supreme Court decision in U.S. v Miller, falsely claiming it said the 2nd amendment only applied to militias. Anyone (like me) who has ever read that decision knows that to be false. What it actually said was that the sawed off shotgun in question was not protected because it was not shown to the court to be a militarily useful weapon, not because its possessor wasn't a member of a militia. The fact that the person convicted wasn't a militia member wasn't even an issue in the case.

Can you show me the law? The fed has gotten away with quite a bit by rationalizing it in various ways. There are apparently federal laws that allow the fed to arrest you for breaking the laws of other states and even of other countries.
I am assuming that there is a standard that all guns sold are to be registered. If the gun is not registered then one may assume that it was sold illegally. If it was sold illegally then one may consider possession of unregistered firearms to be indicators of black market activity and hence falls under the commerce clause.

 

[Gokul43201]

Haven't found the time to post here after the discussion was split off, and probably will not find more time until next week. I will say this, however: my intent with the OP was entirely to probe the rationale behind omitting the prefatory clause, rather than engage in general arguments about gun control.

 

[Cyrus]

Can you show me the law? The fed has gotten away with quite a bit by rationalizing it in various ways. There are apparently federal laws that allow the fed to arrest you for breaking the laws of other states and even of other countries.
I am assuming that there is a standard that all guns sold are to be registered. If the gun is not registered then one may assume that it was sold illegally. If it was sold illegally then one may consider possession of unregistered firearms to be indicators of black market activity and hence falls under the commerce clause.

You don't have to register rifles.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Not every mentally ill person is dangerous, and they are not more apt to commit violent crime than the general population...seems so obvious I can't believe I have to say it .

Do you have a source for that? It sounds intriguing, I can't imagine the study methodology.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Well it does stand to reason that it is much easier for people to commit suicide with a gun. What are the alternatives - hanging themselves? taking a paracetamol overdose?

A bit of perspective - the total suicide rate in America is 11.1 and the firearm related suicide rate is 7.35 - almost three quarters of the total. If you work it out, 65 people commit suicide by using a firearm each day. I would guess substantial number wouldn't commit suicide if they did not have access to a firearm:

I would expect that drug overdoes (paracetamol and acetylsalicylic acid, primarily) would take up all the slack. Do you know if any studies have been done, e.g. in countries that rapidly went from lax to tight firearms laws?

 

[Galteeth]

Do you have a source for that? It sounds intriguing, I can't imagine the study methodology.

I don't have the source, but it makes sense if you include depression as mental illness. Generally, people with depression would be less aggressive and assertive (not including "borderline")

 

[CRGreathouse]

I don't have the source, but it makes sense if you include depression as mental illness.

I would not include it. But I'd love to see a study that addressed the issue under any reasonable definition of metal illness.

 

[Galteeth]

I find this logic a little bit silly. Of course people kill people, but guns make it so much easier to kill people. Guns are literally killing machines that can do way more damage than any other weapon.

And btw no one here is looking to enforce their morality on anyone:)

I agree with this completely except for one major problem: Both the government and criminals would still have guns. If NOBODY had guns, then having guns makes less sense. If guns are illegal, only the bad guys have guns. In other words, outlawing guns doesn't make them go away. It does make the people who have guns a lot more powerful.

 

[Al68]

The psychological and physical damage that normalising gun ownership causes far outweigh any perceived benefits.

Speaking of psychological, I have to side with Freud on this one: Fear of weapons is a symptom of sexual immaturity.

 

[Cyrus]

I would expect that drug overdoes (paracetamol and acetylsalicylic acid, primarily) would take up all the slack. Do you know if any studies have been done, e.g. in countries that rapidly went from lax to tight firearms laws?

Around the world, from Australia to England, countries that have recently strengthened gun-control laws with the promise of lowering crime have instead seen violent crime soar. In the four years after the U.K. banned handguns in 1996, gun crime rose by an astounding 40%. Since Australia's 1996 laws banning most guns and making it a crime to use a gun defensively, armed robberies rose by 51%, unarmed robberies by 37%, assaults by 24% and kidnappings by 43%. While murders fell by 3%, manslaughter rose by 16%.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/2002/05/09/ncoppf.htm

 

[CRGreathouse]

Thanks for the article. I was hoping for something discussing suicide rates, though.

 

[Al68]

Can you show me the law?

Sure: http://trac.syr.edu/laws/26/26USC05841.html

I am assuming that there is a standard that all guns sold are to be registered. If the gun is not registered then one may assume that it was sold illegally.

The federal registration requirement only applies to certain types of weapons, like fully automatic weapons and sawed-off shotguns. There is no such requirement for most guns.

If it was sold illegally then one may consider possession of unregistered firearms to be indicators of black market activity and hence falls under the commerce clause.

Nope, for two reasons. First, the commerce clause specifies interstate commerce. Second, you can't constitutionally justify a law based on the fact that if the law is passed, violations of it would be an indicator of "black market activity". That would be true of any law, constitutional or not.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Nope, for two reasons. First, the commerce clause specifies interstate commerce. Second, you can't constitutionally justify a law based on the fact that if the law is passed, violations of it would be an indicator of "black market activity". That would be true of any law, constitutional or not.

The primary requirements are on manufacturers which have been decided to fall under the commerce clause. If you procure such a firearm as requires registering it will already be registered by the manufacturer. If you are in possession of an unregistered weapon of the sort outlined in the NFA then it is not a big leap to assume that it must be a black market item actionable under the commerce clause. The stretch is in the requirement for individuals to register ownership though I am sure they argue this as necessary due to the prevalence of stolen firearms in the black market.

A interesting decision is Haynes v. U.S. which states that felons and other classes of persons who are prohibited from owning such weapons may not be held to the registration requirements as it would be a violation of the fifth amendment.

 

[BobG]

A interesting decision is Haynes v. U.S. which states that felons and other classes of persons who are prohibited from owning such weapons may not be held to the registration requirements as it would be a violation of the fifth amendment.

I'm hoping you're not suggesting that Haynes v. US makes it legal for convicted felons to own unregistered firearms. The rationale of the decision is that you can't tack an extra charge of failing to register the firearm onto the original charge of a felon in possession of a firearm.

It is an interesting decision, none the less. The IRS can go after a person for income tax evasion if they fail to declare their illegal income on their tax forms. I assume the Haynes decision relies on the fact that failing to register a firearm doesn't result in the person failing to fulfill any other obligation while failing to declare illegal income results in a person failing to pay all of the taxes that they owe.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I'm hoping you're not suggesting that Haynes v. US makes it legal for convicted felons to own unregistered firearms. The rationale of the decision is that you can't tack an extra charge of failing to register the firearm onto the original charge of a felon in possession of a firearm.

Of course. That would be the fifth amendment basis for the decision. You can not charge a person for failing to do a thing which they could not have done anyway. It would merely be an attempt to create additional charges against the person.

 

[turbo]

The federal registration requirement only applies to certain types of weapons, like fully automatic weapons and sawed-off shotguns. There is no such requirement for most guns.

This is only true of private-purchase weapons that can fly under the radar.

If you buy a modern (post 1898) gun of any kind from a dealer, the purchase is registered in his FFL records, and he has to conduct an FBI background check on you before transferring the weapon. The serial number of the weapon and the reference number of the background check result are recorded on his paperwork, as well as the buyers name, address, and signature, as well as the type of ID produced to confirm identity. Those stay in his files. His FFL "book" these days is likely to be digital (that has been allowed for years now) and can be sent to the BATF yearly or on-demand. By law, a dealer cannot carry guns in inventory that have not been entered into that "book".

The requirements are pretty stringent, and if a gun dealer wants to stay out of jail, he'd better adhere to them. The requirements for Class III weapons, including fully automatic guns are far more stringent, and require that the purchaser pay a licensing fee for each weapon, in addition to undergoing a background check. Any FFL-holder (licensed gun-dealer) can deal in Class III weapons, but to do so, they have to pay a yearly fee of $500, which keeps most dealers out of that end of the business.

There is no "forgiveness" for unregistered class III weapons. I got a call from a librarian who was cleaning stuff out of the attic of the town library and found a large WWI machine gun that had been donated just after the war and had stayed in the attic, except for a couple of appearances in parades. I tried and tried to find a way to get that weapon registered so that it could be sold - especially since it was a German gun captured by a very famous Medal of Honor and French Legion of Honor winner, Alvin York. Nope! The BATF wouldn't budge. That library could have built a wing with the money that such a historic machine gun would bring at auction, but I was unable to even take possession of it. Last I knew it was languishing in police impound, awaiting confiscation.