Interpreting Time, Mass & Length in Special Relativity

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In special relativity, observers in relative motion perceive an increase in mass, time dilation, and length contraction in each other's frames. These effects are reciprocal, meaning both observers experience these phenomena, but they are interpretations of relative motion rather than physical changes. Length contraction, while not directly observable, has measurable consequences, such as in particle accelerators. The discussion highlights the philosophical nature of "reality" in relativity, suggesting that while these effects are real in terms of measurements, they may not represent physical changes in the objects themselves. Ultimately, the interpretation of these phenomena continues to provoke debate among physicists and philosophers alike.
  • #31
MeJennifer said:
Again I completely agree with you. But that reason is not derivable from the theory of special relativity.

While any Lorentz based theory would make such a conclusion, SR only "concludes" that because of the postulate of the constancy of light. Seems like a clear case of mixing up cause and effect!
SR transforms one reference frame into another. All effects observed in
a single reference frame can be explained from physics without SR !
Lorentz Contraction
It was found before Einstein (most generally around 1900 by Lienard &
Wiechert) theoretically that for instance the electric field of a moving
charge becomes flatter the faster it moves. It does so as it should do
according to the Lorentz contraction. They derived this from classical
physics. You might imagine that objects consisting out of atoms (where
interactions are dominated by EM fields) therefore also become Lorentz
contracted.

Time Dilation
You could see from the "bouncing photon clock" example a few post back
that this could be explained classically. It's also easy to see that the ticking
of this clock will slow down to zero when its speed approaches c.

Relativistic Mass
With Quantum Mechanics, where matter is described by de Broglie waves
and energy and momentum correspond to the frequency and wavelength
of these waves, one can show that the energy (= relativistic mass)
increases as an object moves faster and goes to infinite if the speed
approaches c. The de Broglie waves are the eigenfunctions of the
Klein Gordon equation which is very close to the classical wave equation.
Information goes with c in both the classical EM wave equation as well
as in the Quantum Mechanical Klein Gordon equation.
And then, as a miracle, all these physical effects disappear, if the observer
goes from the rest frame to the moving frame. This is what SR is all about.
SR = Lorentz transformations = what happens if the observer goes from one
reference frame to another. The way it works is mainly via non-simultaneity:
Lorentz Contraction
To see how Lorentz contraction disappears as a result of non-simultaneity
we can imagine that we instantaneously "freeze" a bypassing traveler.
Walking around him we can now see him "hanging in the air", indeed being
contracted in the direction in which he was moving. The traveler however
will complain that his front was stopped first, before his back was frozen in
time, and argues that this is the reason of his compressed state. You can give
him your "freezing device" and do the experiment the other way around.
This time you'll be the one who is Lorentz contracted.

Time Dilation
How can Time Dilation be undone via non-simultaneity? Since t’ depends
on both t and x we can say that a moving object is also ‘moving’ into the
future. Something which moves into the future will arrive there having aged
less. This is one way to look at Time dilation. Moving close to the speed of
light allows you to travel into the future without hardly aging at all.

In SR there is no special preferred (absolute) reference frame. That is, we
have not (yet?) been able to find one even though modern experiments are
extremely precise. As long as we don’t find such a preferred frame we should
consider the time coordinate as relative. Two distant events are unconnected
and saying they have the same t-coordinate is arbitrary in more or less the
same sense that saying that they have the same x-coordinate is arbitrary.
However, if, one day, we find such a preferred frame then we could consider
time absolute. It makes no difference at all for the effects of SR.
(Take another look at: The Twin brothers in an absolute reference frame)
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=1038957#post1038957

Relativistic Mass
Since energy (= relativistic mass) and momentum correspond to the frequency
and wavelength of the de Broglie waves, and, The Lorentz contraction and
Time dilation of these waves is undone, it follows simply that also the relativistic
mass increase is undone!
Regards, Hans.
 
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  • #32
Hans de Vries said:
SR transforms one reference frame into another. All effects observed in
a single reference frame can be explained from physics without SR !



Lorentz Contraction
It was found before Einstein (most generally around 1900 by Lienard &
Wiechert) theoretically that for instance the electric field of a moving
charge becomes flatter the faster it moves. It does so as it should do
according to the Lorentz contraction. They derived this from classical
physics. You might imagine that objects consisting out of atoms (where
interactions are dominated by EM fields) therefore also become Lorentz
contracted.

Sorry , Hans

You cannot "see" the Lorentz contraction as you described above. This is refuted by a series of experiments by Trouton and Rankine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trouton-rankine
 
  • #33
clj4 said:
Sorry , Hans

You cannot "see" the Lorentz contraction as you described above. This is refuted by a series of experiments by Trouton and Rankine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trouton-rankine

Trouton and Rankine haven't anything to do with this. They started
(long ago, 1908) with an erroneous presumption:

Wikipedia said:
"Trouton and Rankine however believed that if one frame saw a contraction of the object that it should be measurable in the object's rest frame. It was this effect that the experiment sought to measure."

No wonder they measured a zero result... How would one be able to
measure a Lorentz contraction based effect in the rest-frame as they tried?

I'll try to find some links for Lienard Wiechert for you. There are images
as well on the web.


Regards, Hans

[edit 2:]
Lorentz contraction derived from the classical wave equation in the simple way:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=943166&postcount=16



[edit 1] See for instance Jackson's Classical Electrodynamic chapter 14
for Lienard Wiechert. Better yet and online are these:

http://www.pas.rochester.edu/~dmw/phy218/Lectures/Lect_66b.pdf
http://www.pas.rochester.edu/~dmw/phy218/Lectures/Lect_67b.pdf
 
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  • #34
Hans de Vries said:
Trouton and Rankine haven't anything to do with this. They started
(long ago, 1908) with an erroneous presumption:
No wonder they measured a zero result... How would one be able to
measure Lorentz contraction in the rest-frame as they tried?
Wiki (as always) is giving a wrong description, I quoted them only to draw the attention to the experiments. The experiments took place AFTER the dates you are quoting for Lienard Wiechert, correct? As such, they are a valid refutation.
The Trouton - Rankine is based on the Lorentz-FitzGerald contraction which predicts such a contraction due to the Earth movement wrt "aether". In effect, TR is and electrical form of MMX. The theory of TR is virtually identical with the one of MMX.

Lorentz put forward the hypothesis of "atomic contraction" in his 1904 paper. If the hypothesis were true, then rotating the Wheatstone bridge (exactly like the rotation of the MMX interferometer) should have detected the effect. No effect was detected, so it was concluded that the Lorentz contraction does not exist. I think this is the current view of mainstream physics.
I'll try to find some links for Lienard Wiechert for you. There are images
as well on the web.Regards, Hans

This would be very interesting, I wonder what did they really see.
 
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  • #35
clj4 said:
Wiki (as always) is giving a wrong description, I quoted them only to draw the attention to the experiments. The experiments took place AFTER the dates you are quoting for Lienard Wiechert, correct? As such, they are a valid refutation.
The Trouton - Rankine is based on the Lorentz-FitzGerald contraction which predicts such a contraction due to the Earth movement wrt "aether". In effect, TR is and electrical form of MMX. The theory of TR is virtually identical with the one of MMX.

Lorentz put forward the hypothesis of "atomic contraction" in his 1904 paper. If the hypothesis were true, then rotating the Wheatstone bridge (exactly like the rotation of the MMX interferometer) should have detected the effect. No effect was detected, so it was concluded that the Lorentz contraction does not exist. I think this is the current view of mainstream physics.

This would be very interesting, I wonder what did they really see.

Hmm, but the Lienard-Wiechert potentials and Fields are still as valid
as they ever were. See Jackson and the links in the post above.
You actually don't need them for the simpler case of linear motion
(no-acceleration). Lorentz contraction can be very simply derived from
the classical EM wave equation:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=943166&postcount=16


Regards, Hans.
 
  • #36
Hans de Vries said:
Relativistic Mass
Since energy (= relativistic mass) and momentum correspond to the frequency
and wavelength of the de Broglie waves, and, The Lorentz contraction and
Time dilation of these waves is undone, it follows simply that also the relativistic
mass increase is undone!
Yes in quantum mechanics there is a direct relation between clock rates and a particle's mass. The rest mass m has a natural frequency mc2h-1.

Historically it is quite obvious what happened with regards to the development of the special theory of relativity. The Lorentz contractions describe how clocks slow down and lengths contract in a moving frame and as a consequence of this each frame observes the speed of light as c.
SR turned it upside down and postulated the constancy of the the speed of light and then "demonstrated" that from this postulate and the principle or relativity alone one can derive the Lorentz transformations.
The numbers come out exactly the same and as Pervect correctly stated, that is what is most important, but wth SR we are left with paradoxes due to the alledged shrinking of time and space.
 
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  • #37
MeJennifer said:
Yes in quantum mechanics there is a direct relation between clock rates and a particle's mass. The rest mass m has a natural frequency mc2h-1.

Indeed,

If you ever wonder about the frequency "paradox":

The "paradox" is that a relativistic particle has a higher relativistic mass
and thus should have a higher frequency according to E=hf while at the
other hand it ages slower due to time dilation and thus should have a lower
frequency.

Look here for the explanation + an image.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=791784&postcount=87Regards, Hans
 
  • #38
MeJennifer said:
The numbers come out exactly the same and as Pervect correctly stated, that is what is most important, but wth SR we are left with paradoxes due to the alledged shrinking of time and space.

...paradoxes for those who cling to a Galilean-Newtonian viewpoint.
 
  • #39
robphy said:
...paradoxes for those who cling to a Galilean-Newtonian viewpoint.
Ditto... please MeJennifer, there are no paradoxes in SR! The 'paradoxes' only exist in the minds of people clinging to other viewpoints.
 

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