Irreversible Climate Change Already?

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The discussion highlights the potential for irreversible climate change due to the Arctic's role as a greenhouse gas source, particularly methane (CH4), which is significantly more potent than carbon dioxide (CO2). Current estimates suggest the Arctic emits about three times more greenhouse gases than it absorbs, indicating a positive feedback loop that could exacerbate global warming. Despite uncertainties in climate science, the thawing permafrost and increased organic matter decomposition could further release CO2 and CH4 into the atmosphere. The conversation also touches on the complexities of measuring greenhouse gas effects and the need for clarity around the term "irreversible" in the context of climate change. Overall, the implications of Arctic emissions raise concerns about the long-term trajectory of climate change, even if human emissions were to cease.
  • #31
Ivan Seeking said:
Does irreversible [as defined earlier] include geoengineering?

Ah, that's another use of the word "irreversible" ("no matter what we do, we can't repair it").

I would call "irreversible" anything that is caused by a (small) drive, and doesn't disappear after some time when the drive is taken away. Most more or less stable systems are reversible for small enough drives.
 
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  • #32
Ivan Seeking said:
Any controversial claim would require a paper or an official reference. No blogs are acceptable for debated topics as a reference.
Sounds good, but what's official? Any US government science office website? Including news releases? Any university science dept website? Chinese government websites?
 
  • #33
mheslep said:
Sounds good, but what's official? Any US government science office website? Including news releases? Any university science dept website? Chinese government websites?

If an agency is a government agency, such as the USGS, NOAA, or the EPA, offering a page that discusses the state of the climate, then I would expect it to be acceptable. As soon as we get into statements made by individuals, such as a blog as the USGS, then I think it would not qualify.

When I said official, I meant a *.gov site. As for China, why not? If the page represents the peer-reviewed work of mainstream scientists, such as a NOAA page, then it should be okay.

In any event, applicable peer review is the key constraint to consider.
 
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  • #34
vanesch said:
I think the 23 more comes from equal QUANTITIES of gas added:

375 ppm CO2 and 1.7 ppm CH4 gives you (MODTRAN) 287.844 W/m2

add 10 ppm CO2: this gives you 287.75 W/m2 or a forcing of 0.094 W/m2 for 10 ppm CO2

add 10 ppm CH4: you get 285.143 W/m2 or a forcing of 2.7 W/m2

so here we find a factor of 28 more forcing for 10 ppm of CH4 added, than for 10 ppm of CO2 added.

Of course this factor changes as a function of the exact delta.

It gives you the comparative effects of releasing 1 Gton of CO2 or 1 Gton of CH4, starting from our current situation, and for small effects.

One might keep in mind that equal quantities might be best considered in terms of effect of equal number of molecules; that is 1 mole. The respective gram molecular weights are 44 gm for CO2 and 16 gm for methane, giving the same number of molecules i.e. Avogadro number of ~6 x 10^23, even though the wt difference would be 44/16 = 2.75. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avagadro%27s_number"

addendum: If CO2 and methane absorb infrared radiation (via molecular rotation change, if i recall) given off by Earth etc., why then wouldn't these same molecules absorb incoming solar radiation? Might it relate to quantity of infrared radiation re-radiated especially at night?
 
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  • #35
zankaon said:
One might keep in mind that equal quantities might be best considered in terms of effect of equal number of molecules; that is 1 mole. The respective gram molecular weights are 44 gm for CO2 and 16 gm for methane, giving the same number of molecules i.e. Avogadro number of ~6 x 10^23, even though the wt difference would be 44/16 = 2.75. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avagadro%27s_number"

Quite right. The factor 23 difference is per additional molecule, not per equal mass unit.
vanesch said:
I think the 23 more comes from equal QUANTITIES of gas added:

375 ppm CO2 and 1.7 ppm CH4 gives you (MODTRAN) 287.844 W/m2

add 10 ppm CO2: this gives you 287.75 W/m2 or a forcing of 0.094 W/m2 for 10 ppm CO2

add 10 ppm CH4: you get 285.143 W/m2 or a forcing of 2.7 W/m2

so here we find a factor of 28 more forcing for 10 ppm of CH4 added, than for 10 ppm of CO2 added.

Your value of 28 is actually more accurate for current conditions than the 23 quoted previously. But we can improve it further. The modtran calculator is a useful but simple tool intended for student use; and it doesn't actually work all that well for calculating forcings accurately. (See email from the author David Archer in [post=2324953]msg#26[/post] of thread "Rising Carbon Dioxide Levels Don’t Increase Earth’s Temperature", in response to some issues you uncovered earlier.)

A more accurate approach would be to use formulae for estimating forcings, and take derivatives. The equations in http://www.grida.no/publications/other/ipcc_tar/?src=/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/212.htm of the third IPCC assessment report continue to be a good guide and are still applied in the more recent fourth assessment. Note that the methane forcing has a correction for N2O, due to overlap in the absorption bands.

Here is a transcription of those formulae, followed by some algebraic manipulations to get the forcing per unit concentration. A "forcing" is a change in energy balance, measured in W/m2, arising from a change (in this case) in concentrations of gases.

Variables used:
\begin{array}{ll}<br /> M_0, M &amp; \text{Methane concentrations (ppbv) initial and final} \\<br /> N_0, N &amp; N_2O \text{ concentrations (ppbv) initial and final} \\<br /> C_0, C &amp; CO_2 \text{ concentrations (ppmv) initial and final} \\<br /> \Delta F_M, \Delta F_N, \Delta F_C &amp; \text{Associated forcings}<br /> \end{array}​

Formulae:
\begin{align*}<br /> \Delta F_C &amp; = 5.35 \times \log_e \left[ C / C_0 \right] \\<br /> f(M, N) &amp;= 0.47 \times \log_e \left[ 1 + 2.01 \times 10^{-5} (MN)^{0.75} + 5.31 \times 10^{-15} M(MN)^{1.52} \right] \\<br /> \Delta F_M &amp; = 0.036 ( \sqrt{M} - \sqrt{M_0} ) - ( f(M, N_0) - f(M_0, N_0) ) \\<br /> \Delta F_N &amp; = 0.12 ( \sqrt{N} - \sqrt{N_0} ) - ( f(M_0, N) - f(M_0, N_0) ) \\<br /> \intertext{Now get rates of change for forcing, per change concentrations}<br /> \frac{dF}{dC} &amp;= \frac{5.35}{C} \\<br /> \frac{\partial f}{\partial M} &amp; = 0.47 \frac{2.01 \times 10^{-5} \times 0.75 \times N^{0.75}M^{-0.25} + 5.31 \times 10^{-15} \times 2.52 \times (MN)^{1.52}}{1 + 2.01 \times 10^{-5} (MN)^{0.75} + 5.31 \times 10^{-15} M(MN)^{1.52}} \\<br /> \frac{dF}{dM} &amp;= \frac{0.018}{\sqrt{M}} - \frac{\partial f}{\partial M}[M,N_0]<br /> \end{align*}​
As we should expect, the rate of change of forcing is independent of initial values; although methane results depend on N2O concentrations. Current values (accessed July 2009) are at Recent Greenhouse Gas Concentrations, CDIAC. Note that methane varies significantly over the course of a year, so a range is given.

Values: C = 383.8 ppm. N = 320 .. 321 ppb. M = 1735 .. 1857 ppb.
Substituting in the formulae, and scaling the methane rate by 1000 to convert from ppb to ppm, gives:
\begin{align*}<br /> \frac{dF}{dC} &amp;= 0.014 \\<br /> 1000 \times \frac{dF}{dM} &amp;= 0.36 \text{ to } 0.37 \\<br /> \text{ratio efficacy methane to } CO_2 &amp;= 25.7 \text{ to } 26.6<br /> \end{align*}​
Methane is currently about 26 times more potent in the forcing impact, molecule for molecule. The main reason for this is not because the molecules themselves are any better at thermal absorption, but because concentrations are so much lower, which means small additional changes have a larger effect.

After doing this calculation, I found that the results are available in the fourth assessment report, table 2.14, as "radiative efficiency" given in W m-2 ppb-1. Scaling by 1000, they are 0.014 for CO2 and 0.37 for methane; as obtained in the calculations shown here.

Cheers -- sylas
 
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