Is a Grand Unified Theory Really Necessary for Understanding Our Universe?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the necessity and implications of a Grand Unified Theory (GUT) in the context of reconciling general relativity (GR) and quantum mechanics (QM). Participants explore whether these two foundational theories are contradictory, the nature of gravity in relation to other fundamental forces, and the philosophical motivations behind the pursuit of a GUT.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that GR and QM are contradictory, citing differences in their treatment of space and time, leading to issues when trying to apply them simultaneously.
  • Others question whether it is necessary to quantize gravity, suggesting that gravity could be fundamentally different from the other three forces without requiring a GUT.
  • There is a discussion about the nature of infinities arising in both GR and QM, with some participants noting that while QED infinities can be renormalized, GR infinities present a more complex challenge.
  • Some participants propose that the search for a GUT may be driven by a desire for theoretical elegance rather than necessity.
  • One participant introduces the idea of emergent spacetime as a potential framework that could allow gravity to remain distinct from quantum particle fields.
  • There is a debate regarding the empirical evidence for quantization in gravitational contexts, with differing interpretations of what this evidence implies for the quantization of gravity itself.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the compatibility of GR and QM, with no consensus reached on whether a GUT is necessary or what form it should take. Disagreements persist regarding the implications of infinities in both theories and the nature of gravity in relation to other fundamental forces.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in current understanding, particularly regarding the treatment of time in GR and QM, and the unresolved nature of infinities in the context of quantizing gravity.

  • #31
Lelan Thara said:
As far as I know, Aquinas' arguments on the topic come from his Summa Theologica.

(BTW, glad to see you have both a sense of humor and broad range of intellectual interests.)

No, actually I haven't got a sense of humor and my intellectual interests are incredibly narrow :frown: . It is a sort of paradox that most people understand the contrary, at least as for the second point it refers.

Now, here is a more complete answer:
http://yedda.com/questions/8621841671611/
http://www.philosophy.leeds.ac.uk/GMR/articles/angels.html
http://www.baronyofvatavia.org/articles/medcul/pangel112002as37.php

the interesting point is that the concept seems to be transmited orally well before D'Israeli, and that someone brings it to the attention of Leibnitz:

Burcher de Volder in a letter to Leibniz of 14 November 1704 said:
in acus cuspide innumerabiles posse esse animulas, nullam inter se extensionem facientes.

‘there can be innumerable little souls on the point of a needle without their generating any space among themselves’

Of course this concrete answer is wrong. They do not contain space, but generate space between them

EDIT: it seems that the concept of "dancing" is introduced by Joseph Glanville, FRS, in 1661
 
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  • #32
selfadjoint, marcus - you are right, I guess I did latch onto that one statement by DaveC. Thank you for explaining that background dependence in QM is very different than saying QM is dependent on a quantized space.

arivero - I observed empirically that you were able to shift effortlessly from a discussion of GUTs to a discussion of angels on pinheads - and so, this observer created a reality in which you have a sense of humor.

And, of course, since we can't say that your reference frame is privileged in any way compared to mine - I'm afraid you are stuck with it. In my particular little corner of SpaceTime - you have a sense of humor.

There are worse things, you know. :smile:
 
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