Is Artificial Selection the Key to Humanity's Future?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of artificial selection versus natural selection in the context of human evolution and societal values. Participants explore the philosophical, ethical, and practical dimensions of these concepts, including references to eugenics and historical precedents.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Philosophical exploration
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Sherman Hawk argues that humanity undermines natural selection, which has shaped our species through the sacrifices of those who did not survive to reproduce.
  • Some participants suggest that artificial selection could replace natural selection to ensure the survival of the fittest, raising ethical concerns about the implications of such actions.
  • One participant questions the validity of evolution as a framework for discussing human survival and suggests that extreme views may not be widely accepted.
  • Another participant expresses concern over the historical misuse of eugenics, drawing parallels to the Nuremberg laws and the ideologies of the Nazi era.
  • A participant questions the practicality of allowing natural selection to dictate health outcomes, suggesting that eliminating healthcare could lead to a healthier population over time.
  • There is a debate about the relationship between physical health and cognitive ability, with participants discussing the implications of health conditions on survival traits.
  • Some participants challenge the notion of determining who is "worthy" of life, emphasizing the subjective nature of such judgments.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the relationship between natural selection, artificial selection, and eugenics, with no clear consensus emerging. The discussion remains unresolved, with competing perspectives on the ethical implications and practical applications of these concepts.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference historical examples and philosophical arguments, indicating a complex interplay of ideas that may not be universally accepted or understood. The discussion includes speculative reasoning and challenges to assumptions about health and survival.

Nachtwolf
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Sherman Hawk, The Book of Millennium

If it be the truth that human beings, as biological organisms, are subject to the natural laws which govern other creatures, then surely it is also true that human beings, as a species, hate themselves. The one thing which has made us great, we undermine and compromise at every opportunity; the one thing which prevents us from sliding backwards into chaos and distress, we make our best efforts to attack and push away; the one thing to which we owe our humblest thanks, our deepest respect, we despise.

That thing is natural selection.

Countless millions have died to ensure our future — countless souls snuffed out to make us what we are today. Did those who were less intelligent, less cunning, less healthy, less able to survive and reproduce not think or feel? Did they not struggle and suffer? Was their desire for life and happiness so different from our own? Was their anguish at being denied these things less real than our own would be?

These men and women who died without copying their genes are not to be forgotten, not to be ignored, not to be disgraced, for these men and women who died for us are our heroes! It is to their sacrifice that we owe everything we have today, our health, our prosperity, our intelligence, our sentiment — our very lives. If they had not perished, and instead had passed onto us the legacy of their genetic poverty, then the forces of natural selection, which cannot be placated or avoided forever, no matter how long we may try, would have surely destroyed us all when we were just emerging, weak, helpless, naked, from our Eden, from the place our species was born.

Each and every great civilization we have made, from Egypt to America, has spit upon their sacrifice by encouraging its unfit to procreate. Those who would have died under the harsh system of natural selection are fed, sheltered, and encouraged to reproduce by their society. Those who would have thrived and passed on their genes were distracted by the fruits of civilization, seduced by wealth and power, addicted to the practice of thought itself, and failed to pass on their genetic wealth.

Each and every civilization before our own, believing itself above the laws of natural selection, was eventually destroyed by those laws. As harmful mutations built up, as the less able and intelligent outbred the more fortunate, as genetic poverty washed over them in ever growing waves, the fire which kindled the light of civilization dimmed, sputtered, and died, leaving anarchy and destruction and hundreds of years of ignorance in its wake.

If we are to break this dysgenic cycle of suffering, then we must respect those who died for us, respect the forces of natural selection which weeded out their undesirable genes, and, if we are to remove natural selection, we must replace it with artificial selection. There must be selection, in one form or another, and if we find death too cruel a sentence for those whose genes do not merit survival, then we must either reproduce responsibly and in a way which will leave our children with a heritage of genetic wealth, or else accept the whirlwind of destruction which overtakes us when natural selection, too long suppressed, cleanses our species in one nightmarish gesture.
 
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This is, indeed, evolution's natural conclusion.
 
Not that I accept evolution, though. Is this evolution's logical conclusion? Is no one commenting on this because it's been discussed before, or is this too extreme a view to even merit a response? Discussion, anyone -
 
Nevermind - I just found a discussion covering this topic in the social sciences section of the forum.
 
ARE YOU SAYING THAT A BEGGARD IS WORTHLESS? THAT A PRIEST IS WORTHY?

from a philosophical view, all are equal and living 'their experience' for their reason. what good is a perfect world that is temporal?

i believe that we are here as part of a process that is infinite and eternal. living in the physical is a small, tho important, part.

peace,
 
Originally posted by Pseudonym
Nevermind - I just found a discussion covering this topic in the social sciences section of the forum.
And do you have any comments on that discussion? or contributions you'd like to make?
 
comments and discussion? Yes, after reading through 14 pages.

I'll revise my opinion about evolution's link with eugenics. People incorporate evolution into their philosophies in many different ways. However, I can easily see how one might leap from a detached view of species survival to a view of human survival at all cost, not witholding forced sterilization and other such measures. We're just animals, right?

I do have a question. Eugenics is of extremely questionable value, whether theoretically or practically. But why don't we get rid of health care? If we let natural selection work for us, after a period of time there would be virtually no health problems.
 
Originally posted by Nachtwolf

...respect the forces of natural selection which weeded out their undesirable genes, and, if we are to remove natural selection, we must replace it with artificial selection. There must be selection, in one form or another, and if we find death too cruel a sentence for those whose genes do not merit survival, then we must either reproduce responsibly and in a way which will leave our children with a heritage of genetic wealth, or else accept the whirlwind of destruction which overtakes us when natural selection, too long suppressed, cleanses our species in one nightmarish gesture.


These same concepts were discussed and carried out with the Nuremberg laws of the 1940s Nazi era.

Only the supermen were to merit survival, the necessity to cleanse the inferior races in one nightmarish gesture and reproduce the Aryan race and their need to take over the earth. All to keep the subhumans from contaminating the 'ubermenchen' and their need for space on this earth. All to honor those glorious supermen who died in the service of the LEADER.
 
Last edited:
Originally posted by Pseudonym


I do have a question. Eugenics is of extremely questionable value, whether theoretically or practically. But why don't we get rid of health care? If we let natural selection work for us, after a period of time there would be virtually no health problems.
Because the lack of a limb or a bad liver doesn't affect your brain, and for modern humans brain power is as useful a survival trait as strong limbs.
 
  • #10
Originally posted by Zero

Because the lack of a limb or a bad liver doesn't affect your brain, and for modern humans brain power is as useful a survival trait as strong limbs.

"Lack of a liver doesn't affect your brain?" Question, how long would a MODERN BRAIN live without a liver to perform the prime functions necessary to keep that brain alive?

Who on this Earth will decide who is inferior and not worthy of life?
 
  • #11
Originally posted by talus
Originally posted by Zero

Because the lack of a limb or a bad liver doesn't affect your brain, and for modern humans brain power is as useful a survival trait as strong limbs.

"Lack of a liver doesn't affect your brain?" Question, how long would a MODERN BRAIN live without a liver to perform the prime functions necessary to keep that brain alive?

Who on this Earth will decide who is inferior and not worthy of life?
Maybe you are lacking something, because I said "bad liver', not 'missing' liver.


I will decide who is worthy and unworthy...yes, ME!LOL
 
  • #12
Originally posted by Zero

Maybe you are lacking something, because I said "bad liver', not 'missing' liver.

Thank you for your prompt reply. I will again post your sentence in its entirety.

"Because the lack of a limb or a bad liver doesn't affect your brain, and for modern humans brain power is as useful a survival trait as strong limbs."

Did you mean that the lack of a limb or simply an ailing liver doesn't affect your brain? You connected lack of limb and/or a bad liver as not affecting the MODERN BRAIN?


I will decide who is worthy and unworthy...yes, ME!LOL

Heil Hitler... "Arbeit Mach Frei"
 
  • #13
Originally posted by talus
Originally posted by Zero

Maybe you are lacking something, because I said "bad liver', not 'missing' liver.

Thank you for your prompt reply. I will again post your sentence in its entirety.

"Because the lack of a limb or a bad liver doesn't affect your brain, and for modern humans brain power is as useful a survival trait as strong limbs."

Did you mean that the lack of a limb or simply an ailing liver doesn't affect your brain? You connected lack of limb and/or a bad liver as not affecting the MODERN BRAIN?


I will decide who is worthy and unworthy...yes, ME!LOL

Heil Hitler... "Arbeit Mach Frei"
Are you being intentionally argumentative? I saidf a missing limb or a bad liver. IF the liver was missing, who cares if it is a missing healthy liver or a missing unhealthy liver?

My point was that we have health care because weeding out correctable diseases by allowing people to die takes a back seat to the contributions that people make to society. We don't generally just let people die if there is something we can do, and that is because we generally recognize the person as being valuable regardlessof their physical status.

And, of course, you should realize when I am joking...
 
  • #14
Originally posted by Zero

Are you being intentionally argumentative? I saidf a missing limb or a bad liver. IF the liver was missing, who cares if it is a missing healthy liver or a missing unhealthy liver?
My point was that we have health care because weeding out correctable diseases by allowing people to die takes a back seat to the contributions that people make to society. We don't generally just let people die if there is something we can do, and that is because we generally recognize the person as being valuable regardlessof their physical status.
And, of course, you should realize when I am joking...


I didn't understand your attempt at joking as your statement was not amusing. Nor did I mean to be argumentative. It was simply the structure of your sentence that confused me as even an ailing liver can be the end of the organism and death of the brain.

Your statement about the reality that all human beings have the possibility of being valuable to humanity regardless of health is commendable.
 
  • #15
Originally posted by talus
Originally posted by Zero



I didn't understand your attempt at joking as your statement was not amusing. Nor did I mean to be argumentative. It was simply the structure of your sentence that confused me as even an ailing liver can be the end of the organism and death of the brain.
No, see, the joke was when I said that I will decide who lives and who dies! ME! That's why I typed it in boldface, and put a "LOL" after it.

Your statement about the reality that all human beings have the possibility of being valuable to humanity regardless of health is commendable.
I'm so glad you approve...[/sarcasm]
 
  • #16
Originally posted by Zero

No, see, the joke was when I said that I will decide who lives and who dies! ME! That's why I typed it in boldface, and put a "LOL" after it. I'm so glad you approve...[/sarcasm]

It seems to me that joking about selections relating to who lives and dies is not something very funny. Sarcasm can be hurtful if not done to prove a point of view.

Nice talking to you zero...
 
  • #17
Children! children!
(sigh)

now then -
What about the mentally handicapped?
 
  • #18
Originally posted by Pseudonym
Children! children!
(sigh)

now then -
What about the mentally handicapped?
What about them?
 
  • #19
Originally posted by Zero
and for modern humans brain power is as useful a survival trait as strong limbs.
If intelligence and physical well-being are to be the judges of a person's profit to society's evolution, then the severely/profoundly mentally retarded have no business being kept alive. They use up resources, but give little to offset their drain on humanity.
 
  • #20
Originally posted by Pseudonym
If intelligence and physical well-being are to be the judges of a person's profit to society's evolution, then the severely/profoundly mentally retarded have no business being kept alive. They use up resources, but give little to offset their drain on humanity.
Well, they seem to make their folks happy...and the decision would fall to them, wouldn't it?

LOL, I dunno...what I do know is that anyone who would actually sit around and try to assign different values to the lives of human beings based on ANY standard is a pretty worthless human being.
 
  • #21
Are you saying that the only reason we don't kill off relatively worthless humans is that it is impractical?

Note that I don't believe we should kill off the handicapped, because I have a moral standard to apply to this situation. What I am interested in is how someone goes about developing a moral system inclusive of evolution.
 
  • #22
Originally posted by Pseudonym
Are you saying that the only reason we don't kill off relatively worthless humans is that it is impractical?

Note that I don't believe we should kill off the handicapped, because I have a moral standard to apply to this situation. What I am interested in is how someone goes about developing a moral system inclusive of evolution.
Is this going to turn into one of those stupid "you can't have morals unless you believe in (your mythology here)" discussions?
 
  • #23
getting back to the crux of the argument - yes, human compassion is at odds with evolution. but humans have evolved into a compassionate species.

the answer to the conundrum is: if we are all products of natural law, nothing humans do - including negate physical forces of genetic evolution - is really at odds with natural evolution, that is genetic evolution and mimetic evolution. mimetic evolution gave rise to human compassion which negates genetic evolution.

or are we willing to sacrifice the compassion others have so bravely sacrificed for us to evolve in order to kill genetically 'unfit' (that is, every single one of us) human specimens?
 
  • #24
Compassion is very obviously not at odds with evolution, or else it wouldn't exist in so many of us, would it?
 
  • #25
Originally posted by Zero
Compassion is very obviously not at odds with evolution, or else it wouldn't exist in so many of us, would it?

Rumour has it that dinosaurs thought along similar lines: "we are very obviously not at odds with evolution, or else there wouldn't be so many of us, would it?"

touché :wink:
 
  • #26
Sherman Hawk doesn't have the best grasp of evolutionary theory...

As Hawk implies, *fitness* is primary when considering the longevity of genetic lineages. However, he either forgot about or ignored the secondary importance of *variation* to ensure the long-term survival of a population in potentially variable environments.

Homogeneity in the gene-pool is the evolutionary kiss of death for a species when selection pressures happen to change.
 
  • #27
Originally posted by billy_boy_999

getting back to the crux of the argument - yes, human compassion is at odds with evolution. but humans have evolved into a compassionate species. the answer to the conundrum is: if we are all products of natural law, nothing humans do - including negate physical forces of genetic evolution - is really at odds with natural evolution, that is genetic evolution and mimetic evolution. mimetic evolution gave rise to human compassion which negates genetic evolution. or are we willing to sacrifice the compassion others have so bravely sacrificed for us to evolve in order to kill genetically 'unfit' (that is, every single one of us) human specimens?

Billy you have a great many assumptions about evolution and evolving into a compassionate specie.

Some of humanity likes to think of itself as now compassionate and noble.

There is just one problem with your premise besides assuming the theory of evolution had any validity at all.

Humanities compassionate evolutionary changes:

Humans kill each other in great numbers and only one or two cannibalize their kill. (Dahmer of Milwaukee, etc.)

Humans send their children to blow up and kill other human beings in the name of their god.

War has not been abolished and men have not turned their swords into plowshares.

Women and children are molested and killed.

Some of mankind goes to church on Sunday only to go to rob our fellow man on Monday.

Some of humanity dies in the tens of thousands due to a lack of nutrition, disease, weapons, cancer and related fatal diseases, etc which is a direct result of our jump to higher life forms.

So much for improving the specie through evolution
 
  • #28
Pseudonym writes:
This is, indeed, evolution's natural conclusion.
Exactly. Nor can you escape it by rejecting Darwinism, because even the modest principles of microevolution support the same conclusion.

ole drunk writes:
ARE YOU SAYING THAT A BEGGARD IS WORTHLESS? THAT A PRIEST IS WORTHY?
No.

ole drunk writes:
from a philosophical view, all are equal
No.

Pseudonym writes:
forced sterilization
Hawk isn't promoting forced sterilization. Please stay on topic.

Pseudonym writes:
We're just animals, right?
We're certainly not plants.

Pseudonym writes:
But why don't we get rid of health care?
Probably for the same reason we don't institute forced sterilization - because there is no reason to see people suffer unnecessarily. That is, indeed, the whole point of eugenics, to alleviate suffering. Think about it.

talus writes:
These same concepts were discussed and carried out with the Nuremberg laws of the 1940s Nazi era.
Yes, and in my home state of California outside of the 1940s Nazi era.

Seriously, talus, you need to re-examine your logic. The Nazis also used spoons; would you have us abandon our spoons because the Nazis used them?

Pseudonym writes:
If intelligence and physical well-being are to be the judges of a person's profit to society's evolution, then the severely/profoundly mentally retarded have no business being kept alive. They use up resources, but give little to offset their drain on humanity.
Your point is ultimately what Hawk was getting at. It's not what a person can offer to society which gives him value. Elsewhere, Hawk writes:

It is important not to dismiss the "undesirables" as being undesirable; and in truth they are themselves not undesirable, merely unlucky, for it is misfortune bestowed upon them by the genetic lottery which has made them so. It is precisely the fact that we are more than the mere sum of our genes that makes improving the Nation so important. If it were simply that we began and ended with our genes, then would it truly matter whether civilization died for want of intelligence to support it? Why should we care, if few or no gifted individuals remain to suffer?

This is contrary to the ideals of the Nation — I desire that all might share genetic wealth, and it is difficult for me to imagine a more noble dream than this.


Metasystem writes:
As Hawk implies, *fitness* is primary when considering the longevity of genetic lineages. However, he either forgot about or ignored the secondary importance of *variation* to ensure the long-term survival of a population in potentially variable environments.

Homogeneity in the gene-pool is the evolutionary kiss of death for a species when selection pressures happen to change.
These remarks, while interesting, are ultimately off topic - Hawk does not promote the destruction of genetic variation in this excerpt (or anywhere else, to my knowledge; he's not a fool).


--Mark
 
  • #29
Originally posted by Nachtwolf

Exactly. Nor can you escape it by rejecting Darwinism, because even the modest principles of microevolution support the same conclusion.

Quite a broad statement Nacht. What exactly does microevolution support other than in very local processes which indicates only that evolution occurs within limited parameters. There is no prima facea evidence that evolution or creation was the causitive factor for anything.


Hawk isn't promoting forced sterilization. Please stay on topic.

Then what is he promoting?

talus writes:
These same concepts were discussed and carried out with the Nuremberg laws of the 1940s Nazi era.

Yes, and in my home state of California outside of the 1940s Nazi era. Seriously, talus, you need to re-examine your logic. The Nazis also used spoons; would you have us abandon our spoons because the Nazis used them?


What are you talking about? What form of eugenics or killing of the unfit was practiced during the Nazi era in your home state of California?

Your logic about the Nazi using spoons somehow correlating to others abandoning the use of spoons is somewhat like the 'walrus comparing cabbages to kings.'

You seem to be stretching these points to prove your own logic which also needs some re-examination.
 
  • #30
"Darwinism" and "microevolution" are catchphrases often used by creationists...Nachtwolf, are you a creationist?
 

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