Is capitalism compatible with individualism?

[Rev Prez]

Does capitalism seek to create an individualistic society?

It would really help if you phrased these kinds of questions in well-defined terms. The rest of your post dwells only on the relationship between taxes, trade and wealth inequality.

Rev Prez

 

[russ_watters]

Here's a proposal for you guys to mull over:

If the problem you are concerned about is Nike sweat shops in Asia, what would you say to the US applying its labor laws to its companies and associates of its companies in foreign countries? This would be difficult to impliment, but doable: it would require sending inspectors to China to inspect working conditions in Nike owned facilities and Chinese-owned afiliates of Nike and punishing Nike in the US for violations made by companies Nike doesn't own but only does business with.

What do you think of this plan?

 

[The Smoking Man]

Huh? The worst that can be said about Haliburton is that they choose to associate with bad people. Yes, that is inethical and they should stop. But you're seeing the problem backwards: this does not change the fact that it was the Burmese that did those bad things and if their society were a mature capitalistic society, such things would not happen.

Halliburton employed slave labour.

You guys just aren't hearing me. I don't know how many times I have to say it before it gets through: if these countries were mature capitalistic societies, these problems would not exist. Capitalism is the solution, not the problem. How many other ways can I say this:

Are you not hearing us? How many ways do we have to see this? The Mercantile Cpaitalistic Societies are not interested in allowing these banana republics and oppressive regimes to become mature capitalistic societies. It is not in their interests to do so.

You do understand the fact that much of that vast global drop in poverty comes from the drop in poverty in China - and that is because China has become more capitalistic in the past 20 years, not less. Yes, they still have a ways to go, but they are moving in the right direction. Wow. If I were black, I'd probably be insulted by this whole post of yours.

Presumably, if I were Chinese, I would not have the right to be insulted by yours?

What makes it slavery is that slaves are forced to work. When Nike builds a plant in China - yes, even if the pay is very low - people have the choice of whether to work there or not. And for most, the choice is obvious: its better to work than to not work. And if you think that alone makes it slavery, you should quit your job and start begging for food on the street.

Your presumption to lecture me on the status of employment in China is Ironic.

What constitutes slavery?

Couldn't the Jeffersonian slaves have refused to work?

"No massa I ain't pickin no cotton today."

Now tell me the difference between the black slave and the Chinese slave as far as their disposition in two months time.

There are a lot of 'well fed' Americans who simply state that people have the 'Choice' ... to live or die.

The 'CHOICE' is not obvious. It is as manditory.

 

[Pengwuino]

Here's a proposal for you guys to mull over:

If the problem you are concerned about is Nike sweat shops in Asia, what would you say to the US applying its labor laws to its companies and associates of its companies in foreign countries? This would be difficult to impliment, but doable: it would require sending inspectors to China to inspect working conditions in Nike owned facilities and Chinese-owned afiliates of Nike and punishing Nike in the US for violations made by companies Nike doesn't own but only does business with.

What do you think of this plan?

Great idea but impossible. Other countries wouldn't be very welcoming to this idea. Who knows what kind of kickbacks the governments get for various reasons.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Great idea but impossible. Other countries wouldn't be very welcoming to this idea. Who knows what kind of kickbacks the governments get for various reasons.

Exactly ... and who funds the kickbacks?

Those ever so cool and progressive Mercantile Capitalistic Societies who just write it off to 'the cost of doing business'.

Then when it all blows up in the future, the USA says it was only the French that did it.

 

[russ_watters]

Halliburton employed slave labour.

Source?

Are you not hearing us? How many ways do we have to see this? The Mercantile Cpaitalistic Societies are not interested in allowing these banana republics and oppressive regimes to become mature capitalistic societies. It is not in their interests to do so.

It is not in our power to stop them. Its their choice.

Presumably, if I were Chinese, I would not have the right to be insulted by yours?

Huh? I just complimented the Chinese for the vast improvment they made. Where is the insult?

Your presumption to lecture me on the status of employment in China is Ironic.

What constitutes slavery?

Couldn't the Jeffersonian slaves have refused to work?

"No massa I ain't pickin no cotton today."

Now tell me the difference between the black slave and the Chinese slave as far as their disposition in two months time.

OMG, are you serious? "No massa I ain't pickin no cotton today" gets you whipped and, or shot. You don't last two days, much less two months.

There are a lot of 'well fed' Americans who simply state that people have the 'Choice' ... to live or die.

The 'CHOICE' is not obvious. It is as manditory.

If the choice is to live or die, then the better choice seems pretty obvious to me. So why don't you quit your job and go live on the street?

But again, all you are doing here is complaining: stop complaining and propose solutions.

 

[russ_watters]

Great idea but impossible. Other countries wouldn't be very welcoming to this idea. Who knows what kind of kickbacks the governments get for various reasons.

Actually, its not a great idea. The problems are far more severe than just kickbacks (I'll go into it later). But since the others here are unwilling to provide actual solutions, I'm left to attempt to argue both sides.

 

[Pengwuino]

Exactly ... and who funds the kickbacks?

Those ever so cool and progressive Mercantile Capitalistic Societies who just write it off to 'the cost of doing business'.

Then when it all blows up in the future, the USA says it was only the French that did it.

SOCIETIES? Might want to think that over buddy.

 

[The Smoking Man]

When Nike builds a plant in China - yes, even if the pay is very low - people have the choice of whether to work there or not. And for most, the choice is obvious: its better to work than to not work. And if you think that alone makes it slavery, you should quit your job and start begging for food on the street.

Here's an example:

http://www.todayonline.com/articles/59498.asp Thousands of farmers demonstrated against a government-backed land grab in China's southern Guangdong province, with clashes erupting after police detained some protestors, a rights group said.
.
The protests were the latest in a series of incidents that have turned violent throughout China in recent months over government land requisition polices or abuse of power.

Who gets the land in the end? Foreign factories.

Who gets the jobs in the factories ... the farmers who used to own the land.

Choice ... Nil.

Kickbacks ... Youbecha!

Funding of kickbacks ... Mercantile Capitalists who don't care enough about their own countries to keep the jobs there. Why ... because true capitalism is not a democracy and they operate better where people have no say.

Ask the people of Bhopal India.

 

[russ_watters]

First tell me why those farmers are worse off than they were before, but next, propose a solution that will make them better off and another solution to prevent such land-grabs in the future.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

What constitutes slavery?

Couldn't the Jeffersonian slaves have refused to work?

"No massa I ain't pickin no cotton today."

Now tell me the difference between the black slave and the Chinese slave as far as their disposition in two months time.

I'd say that in two months time the chinese worker will still have the choice to find another job. In a couple days time the slave would most likely have either gone back to work or been beaten to death.
Slaves are property. There's your differance.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Source? It is not in our power to stop them. Its their choice. Huh? I just complimented the Chinese for the vast improvment they made.

You complemented the government. Not the people. You referred to African Americans, not their government.

OMG, are you serious? "No massa I ain't pickin no cotton today" gets you whipped.

Apparently you really ARE out of it because in most cases, that is exactly the SAME result here.

If the choice is to live or die, then the better choice seems pretty obvious to me. So why don't you quit your job and go live on the street?

Because Russ, I am an independent consultant working in domestic and foreign corporations to improve the lot of people in China as I did in the Philippines 10 years ago.

But again, all you are doing here is complaining: stop complaining and propose solutions.

I propose solutions every day across board room tables.

Believe me it is hard walking the knife edge of watching employment withdrawn completely while sticking up for rights of individuals.

The latest stats place 26 million people at less than 668 yuan per year and 270 million at less than 2,400 ($300) per month.

 

[The Smoking Man]

I'd say that in two months time the chinese worker will still have the choice to find another job. In a couple days time the slave would most likely have either gone back to work or been beaten to death.
Slaves are property. There's your differance.

So after two months of no food the Chinese worker would have found another job.

You should take this act on the road.

Do you imagine they get the same benefit cheques an american worker gets?

 

[Pengwuino]

I'd say that in two months time the chinese worker will still have the choice to find another job. In a couple days time the slave would most likely have either gone back to work or been beaten to death.
Slaves are property. There's your differance.

And there were LAWS to enforce this difference!

 

[Pengwuino]

Here's an example:





Who gets the land in the end? Foreign factories.

Who gets the jobs in the factories ... the farmers who used to own the land.

Choice ... Nil.

Kickbacks ... Youbecha!

Funding of kickbacks ... Mercantile Capitalists who don't care enough about their own countries to keep the jobs there. Why ... because true capitalism is not a democracy and they operate better where people have no say.

Ask the people of Bhopal India.

Welcome to socialism. Capitalist societies do not believe in taking land away. Only socialist ideals dictate that land can be taken away from someone for the good of someone else.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

So after two months of no food the Chinese worker would have found another job.

You should take this act on the road.

Do you imagine they get the same benefit cheques an american worker gets?

I see you've completely side stepped my mentioning the fact that a slave is treated completely differantly and is considered property.

At any rate, my point was that the worker can find another job. As soon as he leaves one he can look for another. Regardless of how long it takes or if he gets government help or not he will always have that choice.

A slave does not have this choice. He is property. He works or he will be beaten until he either works or has been beaten to death.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Welcome to socialism. Capitalist societies do not believe in taking land away. Only socialist ideals dictate that land can be taken away from someone for the good of someone else.

Well unless you're the US supreme court.

 

[Pengwuino]

Well unless you're the US supreme court.

Take away our guns and look what happens! Run amuck.

 

[The Smoking Man]

First tell me why those farmers are worse off than they were before, but next, propose a solution that will make them better off and another solution to prevent such land-grabs in the future.

Oh, I don't know ... Maybe the fact that their liveliehood as farmers was just taken away from them!? Doh!

The solution is to make the people of the countries of these foreign corporations aware of what is going on and have them act in their own countries.

Did you expect that Burma was going to act AGAINST Halliburton for instance?

Even YOU state that it was the Burmese Government who employed the people when just a little common sense would tell you that the Government knows NOTHING about the construction of a pipeline.

With a nod and a wink, Halliburton had those people do the tasks needed.

This has very little to do in the foreign nations that have corrupt governments. They are merely the facilitators of the abuse.

I straddle both societies ... western and third/developing world.

I watch as these corporations search for countries with the least population friendly governments so that they can take advantage of every cent.

People like yourselves are deceived into the idea that the slow move towards rising wages for the employed solves problems when in reality you are quoted rising wages while rising costs are hidden. This means that those NOT employed in those areas are thrown even further into poverty.

This is the danger of those nasty things called statistics.

A statistician is a person who can have his head in the oven and his feet frozen into a block of ice and say, "On average, I feel okay."

Take Bill Gates and stick him in a room with 9 people about to die from starvation and you get an average income in that room of $4 billion.

YOU are being manipulated by statistics.

If you can honestly say with a straight face that you don't know if those farmers are better off or not now they have lost their land, you have some serious issues.

I see people all the time from Spunkhollow, Alabama who blame the 'chinks' for their problems and Bush's have and have nots laugh behind their hands.

They say the media here is censored ... Besides John Pilger, I have seen few journalists actually give this problem the attention it needs.

I unge you AGAIN to go to his website and read the section on Globalization:

http://pilger.carlton.com/print

He states the problem there and has some solutions.

 

[Astronuc]

Welcome to socialist. Capitalist societies do not believe in taking land away. Only socialist ideals dictate that land can be taken away from someone for the good of someone else.

Eminent domain has been part of the US political-economic system since day 1.

The Federal and State governments took private land in the Eastern US during the 1800's and gave it to private companies and some public companies for railroads. In fact, railroads had the right of eminent domain granted to them in some cases.

The one can look at how J. D. Rockefeller built his oil monopoly. He had people sabotage the competition. No telling how many people he 'murdered'.

And Carnegie - equally ruthless - no telling how many people were killed (murdered) by people in his employ.

Capitalism or rather industrialism in the late 1800's and early 1900's was brutal.

That and the Great Depression is why the US ended up with Socialist policies - and that saved many lives.

 

[The Smoking Man]

I see you've completely side stepped my mentioning the fact that a slave is treated completely differantly and is considered property.

At any rate, my point was that the worker can find another job. As soon as he leaves one he can look for another. Regardless of how long it takes or if he gets government help or not he will always have that choice.

A slave does not have this choice. He is property. He works or he will be beaten until he either works or has been beaten to death.

Do you have your fingers in your ears and are you singing LALALALALALA?

http://www.ethicalmatters.co.uk/articles.asp?itemID=44&title=Exploitation]Poor[/URL] wages are by far the worst aspect of the sweatshop. Workers in China manufacturing Nike and Adidas trainers earn as little as 16 cents (US) a day, while the trainers sell for $100 or more in the US. More crucially, these workers are paid far less than the cost of living in their own countries. Development experts define a living wage as an amount, per hour, where a worker can afford to feed themselves and perhaps children, pay for basic clothing and accommodation, and have a little to spare to save or help with ageing parents. In China, these basics can be bought for just 87 cents an hour. The worker sewing shoes on a Nike assembly line is paid less than a quarter of that. Workers making Disney jackets and cuddly toys at the Megatex factory in Haiti make $2.15 a day, while their basics cost $6.12 a day.

Conditions in far off factories that manufacture goods for western consumption are notoriously harsh. Reports emerge of beatings, rape, fires and forced labour. Everyday conditions, which in the West would horrify, are more or less taken for granted: bans on socialising or even talking, monitored toilet breaks for which wages are deducted, stuffy and poorly ventilated factories, no protective gloves or masks, short term contracts with no consideration for sickness or redundancy pay.

Hours are also long, often with no pay for overtime. In China it is rare for a worker to do less than 60 hours a week. In the Li Wen factory, workers sewing handbags for Wal-Mart and Kathy Lee routinely do 84 hours a week - and suffer 24 hour stretches when orders need to be fulfilled.

 

[The Smoking Man]

I see you've completely side stepped my mentioning the fact that a slave is treated completely differantly and is considered property.

And what do you think the government officials receiving the kickbacks consider the population in their area?

Do you think they are getting elected?

Who answers to whom?

Who do you think those riot troops work for?

What happens to those protestors when they are out of view of the foreign cameras?

What is 're-education'?

 

[The Smoking Man]

And there were LAWS to enforce this difference!

There were laws to enforce this difference?

Wait, are you stating there are laws protecting the rights of the Chinese?

What planet are you from?

This is the country that manufactures 'knock-offs' of every big ticket item in the west, right?

Do you know how it is done?

Armani, YSL or Prada gets product made at a sweat shop. Once the run is complete, the factory continues to produce until maybe twice the number is created.

Half goes to the customer and the rest hit the markets.

Why am I telling you this? ... Because this is the type of businessman you are dealing with. This is the brother-in-law of any mayor or police-chief in China.

There is even a term for it ... Guanxi.

Yeah ... there are 'laws' in China.

WTO threats have a problem being enforced against counterfeit goods ... how well do you think those labour laws fare?

These people ARE property and don't even consider it other wise.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Eminent domain has been part of the US political-economic system since day 1.

Cheers for that.

I was beginning to think I was alone here for a second.

 

[loseyourname]

Eminent domain has been part of the US political-economic system since day 1.

That doesn't make it capitalistic. One of the key tenets of capitalism is the dictatorial control of a landowner over his own land. In a pure capitalist nation, the government would not be capable of exercising eminent domain.

 

[Art]

Cheers for that.

I was beginning to think I was alone here for a second.

I think you'll find you have plenty of support for your point of view from contributors to this forum but as it is impossible to have a meaningful discussion with some of the right wing zealots posting here, most of us simply ignore their more ridiculous rants. They have no interest in exchanging ideas or information. They only want to promote their own twisted sense of values and morals. When you do tie them down on some particularly outrageous comment they've made, their tactics are obfuscation, denial, semantics or their other key fallback position - you're anti-american.

 

[The Smoking Man]

That doesn't make it capitalistic. One of the key tenets of capitalism is the dictatorial control of a landowner over his own land. In a pure capitalist nation, the government would not be capable of exercising eminent domain.

LOL.

But since this is 'the' most capitalistic society in the world according to the most 'Right Wing' here, that makes this the most typical, N'est-ce pas?

Just as there is no example of pure communism EVER in the world, there has been no example of 'pure capitalism'.

Oh, and it would be the MOST capitalistic person who runs things who would be able to take advantage of the rules in eminent domain.

Sort of like the party bosses in local government in China ... go figure.

 

[The Smoking Man]

I think you'll find you have plenty of support for your point of view from contributors to this forum but as it is impossible to have a meaningful discussion with some of the right wing zealots posting here, most of us simply ignore their more ridiculous rants. They have no interest in echanging ideas or information. They only want to promote their own twisted sense of values and morals. When you do tie them down on some particularly outrageous comment they've made, their tactics are obfuscation, denial, semantics or their other key fallback position - you're anti-american.

Cheers ... I'll take that under advisement. (Although it has been fairly obvious.)

 

[russ_watters]

Apparently you really ARE out of it because in most cases, that is exactly the SAME result here.

Well in that case, I revoke my complimenting of China's progress - China has some massive problems they need to fix.

Because Russ, I am an independent consultant working in domestic and foreign corporations to improve the lot of people in China as I did in the Philippines 10 years ago.

I'm not impressed by your resume.

I propose solutions every day across board room tables.

Then it should be a piece of cake to give me one.

 

[russ_watters]

Oh, I don't know ... Maybe the fact that their liveliehood as farmers was just taken away from them!? Doh!

Their "liveliehood"? Weren't you just the one complaining about China's poverty rate? China's poverty rate is decreasing, not increasing with China's move toward capitalism.

The solution is to make the people of the countries of these foreign corporations aware of what is going on and have them act in their own countries.

And that means what? For foreign companies to stop building factories in China? How will that help China's economy?

Did you expect that Burma was going to act AGAINST Halliburton for instance?

Burma is a country, Haliburton is a company. Yes, Burma had the option to do whatever they wanted. If they are that inept, you're just proving my point: Burma needs to fix its government.

Even YOU state that it was the Burmese Government who employed the people when just a little common sense would tell you that the Government knows NOTHING about the construction of a pipeline.

Common sense? How about providing some facts. It seems to me when emotions get involved, "common sense" leads people to the wrong conclusions. http://www.earthrights.org/halliburton/rerelease.shtml is an article critical of Haliburton. But read what actually happened:

From 1992 until the present, thousands of villagers in Burma have been forced to work on these pipelines and their related infrastructure, have lost their homes due to forced relocation, and have been raped, tortured, and killed by Burmese soldiers hired by the companies as security guards for the pipelines. Under Cheney, a joint venture of Halliburton and Saipem (Italy) laid the offshore portion of the Yadana pipeline. Halliburton's participation in these projects shows a callous disregard for the consequences of their business behavior.

The human rights abuses associated with the Yadana pipeline form the basis of the landmark lawsuit Doe v. Unocal, which is scheduled to go to trial this fall. (Halliburton is not a defendant in that case.)

Not only were the perpetrators Burmese soldiers and governemnt officials, Haliburton didn't even work on the same part of the project where these things happened. In a lawsuit over this, Haliburton isn't even a defendant - they had nothing to do with it!

This has very little to do in the foreign nations that have corrupt governments. They are merely the facilitators of the abuse.

If that were true, then why don't such abuses happen in 1st world nations?

People like yourselves are deceived into the idea that the slow move towards rising wages for the employed solves problems when in reality you are quoted rising wages while rising costs are hidden. This means that those NOT employed in those areas are thrown even further into poverty.

This is the danger of those nasty things called statistics.

A statistician is a person who can have his head in the oven and his feet frozen into a block of ice and say, "On average, I feel okay."

Take Bill Gates and stick him in a room with 9 people about to die from starvation and you get an average income in that room of $4 billion.

YOU are being manipulated by statistics.

That isn't how poverty statistics work and you know it. You're being purposely deceptive.

If you can honestly say with a straight face that you don't know if those farmers are better off or not now they have lost their land, you have some serious issues.

Those specific farmers may or may not be - and you can't know either - but the overall impact of capitalism in China has unquestionably been a positive one.