Is Cheating the Answer to Academic Frustration?

[Cyrus]

I know a guy who cheats. He's cheated his whole life on everything. Ever since high school he cheats, even in college another friend of mine told me he does the same kind of nonsense. His major was completely different than mine (bio), but still.

Absolutely unscrupulous...

Now he's doing pretty much nothing with his life.

 

[Wellesley]

See, what gets me are the people who have gotten away with cheating for a long time, and then get caught. Of course they claim, "I didn't mean too!" and "promise" to never do it again.

What will cheating on one test do for you, when you flunk the final exam?

 

[Mgt3]

This has been mentioned before, but it is worth repeating. Cheating will get you from test to test, but it does not help you at all when you get to an internship or the real world. Without developing skills in your specific area of study, you are simply sabotaging your own future. I'm not trying to be Mr. Clean on this thread, but quite honestly this is a point that few would argue against.

That's why I could care less if he tried to cheat on a test.

1. Having a cheat sheet is useless if you don't understand the material to begin with. You won't know how to apply the information. Need proof? Give someone with a poor understanding of calculus a cheat sheet on differential equations and ask them to solve a differential equation. It's not happening.

2. He's only cheating himself. He's not cheating the other students. His grades have no bearing on the other students' abilities to perform well in the course and learn the required material. He isn't denying them a thing, unless he broke a curve, which I highly doubt.

3. If he gets caught, he's kicked out of the university. If he's willing to risk his future who am I to stop him?

We'd like to think all cheaters fail, but I know plenty of rotten a-holes who get ahead. It doesn't make it right, but I know of one guy who cheated in college, cheated in law school, cheated on the bar exam, cheated on his wife, cheated elections, cheated the electorate, cheated other politicians, is a multimillionaire and happy with his life because he found God. Come to think of it, he's one rotten son of a ***** and I hate his guts but that doesn't keep him from prospering financially.

 

[Cyrus]

That's why I could care less if he tried to cheat on a test.

1. Having a cheat sheet is useless if you don't understand the material to begin with. You won't know how to apply the information. Need proof? Give someone with a poor understanding of calculus a cheat sheet on differential equations and ask them to solve a differential equation. It's not happening.

2. He's only cheating himself. He's not cheating the other students. His grades have no bearing on the other students' abilities to perform well in the course and learn the required material. He isn't denying them a thing, unless he broke a curve, which I highly doubt.

3. If he gets caught, he's kicked out of the university. If he's willing to risk his future who am I to stop him?

We'd like to think all cheaters fail, but I know plenty of rotten a-holes who get ahead. It doesn't make it right, but I know of one guy who cheated in college, cheated in law school, cheated on the bar exam, cheated on his wife, cheated elections, cheated the electorate, cheated other politicians, is a multimillionaire and happy with his life because he found God. Come to think of it, he's one rotten son of a ***** and I hate his guts but that doesn't keep him from prospering financially.

Perfect example of how cheating (a) did help himself, (b) didn't get him kicked out, and (c) wasn't useless. But hey, you "could care less" about him cheating.

Zero tolerance for cheating, none.

 

[Mgt3]

Perfect example of how cheating (a) did help himself, (b) didn't get him kicked out, and (c) wasn't useless. But hey, you "could care less" about him cheating.

Zero tolerance for cheating, none.

Cyrus, I don't believe cheating is justified under normal circumstanced and I never argued that. I care more about a scumbag politician billing the local government 70 grand per year for two hours of work per week who's personally affecting me rather than some kid cheating himself. The cases are dissimilar. Cheating becomes a problem when other people suffer as a result of a student cheating. If he cheats, gets caught, and gets kicked out he's hurt himself and no one else. If he cheats and does poorly, which I expect he did, he loses, no one else. If he cheats, breaks a curve, and everyone get's a C now we have a problem.

 

[windsupernova]

Well, cheating can only get you so far IMO. And you will feel a lot more accomplished if you managed to do it yourself through hard work

 

[Wellesley]

I don't believe cheating is justified under normal circumstanced and I never argued that. I care more about a scumbag politician billing the local government 70 grand per year for two hours of work per week who's personally affecting me rather than some kid cheating himself.

Normal circumstances? When can it be justified?

 

[Cyrus]

Cyrus, I don't believe cheating is justified under normal circumstanced and I never argued that. I care more about a scumbag politician billing the local government 70 grand per year for two hours of work per week who's personally affecting me rather than some kid cheating himself. The cases are dissimilar. Cheating becomes a problem when other people suffer as a result of a student cheating. If he cheats, gets caught, and gets kicked out he's hurt himself and no one else. If he cheats and does poorly, which I expect he did, he loses, no one else. If he cheats, breaks a curve, and everyone get's a C now we have a problem.

You just did it again. "under normal circumstances". That impiles its ok to cheat under 'extraordinary circumstances' - it is not.

Ok, and what if he cheats and gets a grade that's on par with the curve, but much higher than what he would have achieved had he not cheated. Now he gets to pass the class along with everyone else (and didn't break the curve), and basically screwed the entire class over.

Do you understand the principle of integrity? You have it or you dont, and what defines it is during extraordinary circumstances.

 

[humanino]

D*mn !

Cheating becomes a problem when other people suffer as a result of a student cheating.

NO[/size]
Stop arguing, cheating is never fine, from the beginning it is a problem. Face it : even if you consider cheating you are already a cheating looser. Accepting it is the only the progress away from it.

 

[Choppy]

I have to say I'm with Cyrus on this one.

It's interesting how some people will rationalize certain actions.

With regards to not being able to "afford" to fail - this is perhaps motivation for cheating, but it is not justification. Paying tuition does not entitle anyone to credit for a course - only the opportunity to earn it.

 

[xxChrisxx]

D*mn !NO[/size]
Stop arguing, cheating is never fine, from the beginning it is a problem. Face it : even if you consider cheating you are already a cheating looser. Accepting it is the only the progress away from it.

I'd really really disagree with that. The mental stress caused by knowing you arent going to do well does lead you to consider optaions that arent above board. The key is to resist the temptation.

I've been really tempeted to cheat in the past, I decided I couldn't go through with it and failed the module. I was dissapointed in the short term but felt better because I wasnt dishonest. Incidentally the failure helped my point out a flaw in my revision technique.

considering something and doing it are two separate things entirely.

Im with Cyrus in that there is no justification for cheating.

 

[Mgt3]

For the most part, I agree with Cyrus. Cheating is not justified under normal circumstances, although it dire circumstances one could see exceptions. (It is clear that the original poster's circumstances were not dire enough to warrant cheating) Cyrus and others, however, make the <i>wrong</i> argument against why cheating is not justified. It has nothing to do with other students in the class; they were most likely unaffected by the actions of the original poster. This particular instance of cheating was wrong because the student broke his contractual relationship with the school. I don't know how you guys missed this.

"NO Stop arguing, cheating is never fine, from the beginning it is a problem. Face it : even if you consider cheating you are already a cheating looser. Accepting it is the only the progress away from it."

Care to back any of that emotional assertion up with a rational argument? It's unwise to speak in absolutes.

Anyone claiming never having been tempted to cheat or be dishonest is the worst kind of liar.

 

[Mgt3]

With regards to not being able to "afford" to fail - this is perhaps motivation for cheating, but it is not justification.

Bingo. You got my point. We need to look beyond condemning a person and look at the circumstances behind why a person would cheat on a test. Hysterically screaming "cheater" like the second coming of McCarthy is not something I've come to expect from educated scientists. Cheating occurs every day, everywhere, in every field and not because people are necessarily malevolent. Understanding this is the first step to decreasing the occurrence of cheating.

 

[Cyrus]

For the most part, I agree with Cyrus. Cheating is not justified under normal circumstances, although it dire circumstances one could see exceptions. (It is clear that the original poster's circumstances were not dire enough to warrant cheating) Cyrus and others, however, make the <i>wrong</i> argument against why cheating is not justified. It has nothing to do with other students in the class; they were most likely unaffected by the actions of the original poster. This particular instance of cheating was wrong because the student broke his contractual relationship with the school. I don't know how you guys missed this.

"NO Stop arguing, cheating is never fine, from the beginning it is a problem. Face it : even if you consider cheating you are already a cheating looser. Accepting it is the only the progress away from it."

Care to back any of that emotional assertion up with a rational argument? It's unwise to speak in absolutes.

Anyone claiming never having been tempted to cheat or be dishonest is the worst kind of liar.

I beg your pardon? I've never cheated, nor been tempted to in any exam in college, ever. Speak for yourself.

For the nth time, "although it dire circumstances one could see exceptions". No. Just No.

You have a warped view of academic honesty.

 

[Cyrus]

Bingo. You got my point. We need to look beyond condemning a person and look at the circumstances behind why a person would cheat on a test. Hysterically screaming "cheater" like the second coming of McCarthy is not something I've come to expect from educated scientists. Cheating occurs every day, everywhere, in every field and not because people are necessarily malevolent. Understanding this is the first step to decreasing the occurrence of cheating.

I'm curous, are you a scientist?

 

[Mgt3]

I beg your pardon? I've never cheated, nor been tempted to in any exam in college, ever. Speak for yourself.

For the nth time, "although it dire circumstances one could see exceptions". No. Just No.

You have a warped view of academic honesty.

1. Never been tempted to cheat? I believe you are a generally moral person who has resisted temptations to cheat or engage in immoral behaviour. But never tempted? Never? I don't believe you. Every person is tempted at one time or another in their lives. You have an unrealistic view of the human condition.

2. Lay off the personal attacks. It seems to me that you're covering up your own past temptations to justify your holier than thou academic McCarthyism. Don't you dare tell me that I have a warped view of academic honesty. I never attempted to justify cheating under any normal circumstances and I'm appalled at your blatant disrespect towards another member of this forum who is trying to engage in ethical inquiry.

3. You have yet to back up any of your assertions. Let me ask you this: Is homicide never justified?

 

[Cyrus]

1. Never been tempted to cheat? I believe you are a generally moral person who has resisted temptations to cheat or engage in immoral behaviour. But never tempted? I don't believe you. Every person is tempted at one time or another in their lives. You have an unrealistic view of the human condition.

2. You have yet to back up any of your assertions. Let me ask you this: Is homicide never justified?

No, I was never tempted to cheat. Because I studied and knew what I was doing. Watch your accusations.

I'm not here to discuss homicide with you.

 

[Cyrus]

Here is an excerpt from our code of conduct:

Responsibility to Report Academic Dishonesty

Academic dishonesty is a corrosive force in the academic life of a university. It jeopardizes the quality of education and depreciates the genuine achievements of others. It is, without reservation, a responsibility of all members of the campus community to actively deter it. Apathy or acquiescence in the presence of academic dishonesty is not a neutral act. Histories of institutions demonstrate that a laissez-faire response will reinforce, perpetuate, and enlarge the scope of such misconduct. Institutional reputations for academic dishonesty are regrettable aspects of modern education. These reputations become self-fulfilling and grow, unless vigorously challenged by students and faculty alike.

All members of the University community, students, faculty, and staff share the responsibility and authority to challenge and make known acts of apparent academic dishonesty.

I suggest you take the time to read the ethics held at a real university.

 

[Mgt3]

Here is an excerpt form our code of conduct:



I suggest you take the time to read the ethics held at a real university.

I suggest you take the time to read the thread. Did you bother to read one of my posts appearing earlier in this thread? D'oh! Looks like you're more interested in weird personal attacks rather than the discussion at hand.

 

[Mgt3]

No, I was never tempted to cheat. Because I studied and knew what I was doing. Watch your accusations.

I'm not here to discuss homicide with you.

I don't believe that you have never been tempted to cheat in life. You are clearly being dishonest.

Why are you running away from the quesiton? Could it be that there are exceptions to every ethical rule? Could it be that you're cornered? Checkmate.

 

[Cyrus]

I don't believe that you have never been tempted to cheat in life. You are clearly being dishonest.

Why are you running away from the quesiton? Could it be that there are exceptions to every ethical rule? Could it be that you're cornered? Checkmate.

I'm not going to waste any more time on this. I'm simply going to report you. Have a nice day.

 

[Mgt3]

I'm not going to waste any more time on this. I'm simply going to report you. Have a nice day.

Report me to whom? Santa Claus? You have the nerve to question my academic honesty and then get your knickers in a twist when I take umbridge with that? Pathetic.

 

[maze]

I'm not going to waste any more time on this. I'm simply going to report you. Have a nice day.

I'm not sure if you're trolling or what, but engaging in personal attacks, and then threatening to report a user just because they disagree with you is not the mark of someone who is sure of his position.

 

[Cyrus]

You are being dishonest when you say:

Lay off the personal attacks. It seems to me that you're covering up your own past temptations to justify your holier than thou academic McCarthyism. Don't you dare tell me that I have a warped view of academic honesty. I never attempted to justify cheating under any normal circumstances and I'm appalled at your blatant disrespect towards another member of this forum who is trying to engage in ethical inquiry.

a.) I'm not covering up past temptations - so don't make any unfounded claims.

b.) You do have a warped view of academic honesty if you think its ok to cheat provided its not under "normal circumstances". That goes against the very grain of academic honesty. YOU have said, multiple times now, that "it was not under exceptional circumstance when he cheated, so he doesn't hurt his classmates so long as he didn't bust the curve". This is not an example to set in a physicsforums to the students who view here.

 

[Mgt3]

He's got a lot of nerve. If he can't deal with other viewpoints, he should refrain from posting I never condoned cheating. Cyrus never bothered to read my posts, including the one outlining my point: We must try to understand why people cheat if we intend to end cheating in universities. I explored the possibility that ethical maxims may not extend to every possible conceivable scenario, and this guy goes awol. That's a philosophical questioned debated in philosophy departmets on a daily basis in universities around the world. He's got to come to terms with freedom of inquiry, read people's posts, and show some respect for other members of this board.

 

[berkeman]

Report me to whom? Santa Claus? You have the nerve to question my academic honesty and then get your knickers in a twist when I take umbridge with that? Pathetic.

He means report the posts to the Mentors. Thread locked -- too much bickering, bordering on personal insults and trying to rile others. That's against the PF rules.

 

[rootX]

He means report the posts to the Mentors. Thread locked -- too much bickering, bordering on personal insults and trying to rile others. That's against the PF rules.

not yet ..

 

[berkeman]

not yet ..

Oopsies. Got distracted. Thanks rootX