Is Cooling the Key to Efficient Jet Engines?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the cooling mechanisms in jet engines, exploring various methods and the implications of temperature on engine efficiency and performance. Participants address both theoretical and practical aspects of cooling in gas turbines, including material properties and thermodynamic principles.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Experimental/applied

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that turbines are often cooled by bleeding air from the compressor outlet to increase maximum turbine inlet temperature, which can enhance specific thrust.
  • Others argue that the primary goal is to achieve high air temperatures for thrust generation, suggesting that cooling is not desirable and that the right alloys should be selected to withstand high temperatures.
  • A participant emphasizes that maintaining a constant temperature in gas turbine engines would prevent thrust generation, highlighting the importance of thermodynamic principles.
  • Concerns are raised about the potential for engine components to melt due to excessive heat, prompting questions about the melting temperatures of alloys used in gas turbines.
  • Some participants describe various cooling schemes, such as blade passage cooling and the use of coatings to manage material temperatures, while also noting the importance of minimizing cooling air usage.
  • There is a suggestion that cooling the incoming gas during the compression stage is crucial for efficiency, indicating that high gas temperatures should be avoided until after compression.
  • Discussion includes the melting temperatures of materials like Inconel and the use of cooling passages in turbine blades, as well as strategies for impingement cooling.
  • One participant proposes that cooling the exhaust after combustion could be beneficial, as cooler gases would carry more mass, introducing a different perspective on cooling strategies.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views on the necessity and methods of cooling in jet engines, indicating that the discussion remains unresolved with no clear consensus on the best approach.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include varying definitions of cooling mechanisms, differing interpretations of thermodynamic principles, and the complexity of material properties under high temperatures. Some assumptions about the efficiency of cooling methods and their impact on performance are not fully explored.

The_Absolute
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How are jet engines cooled? I've seen diagrams of all different kinds of jet engines and I cannot find anything which resembles a cooling mechanism.
 
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Turbines are often cooled by bleeding air from the compressor outlet. This increases the maximum turbine inlet temperature, which in turn will dramatically increase the specific thrust of the engine (because a higher fuel-air ratio can be used).
 
In general you don't want to cool them - the idea is to get the air hot
There is a maximum temperature for the burnign fuel - you just need to pick the right alloys
 
mgb_phys said:
In general you don't want to cool them - the idea is to get the air hot
There is a maximum temperature for the burnign fuel - you just need to pick the right alloys

I was about to post that, but in fact it isn't exactly true. The idea is to give the air velocity (momentum). Being hot is simply a penalty you pay, it is not a means of thrust.
 
Cyrus said:
Being hot is simply a penalty you pay, it is not a means of thrust.
No, being hot is what makes the air expand, which enables it to generate that velocity. It isn't a biproduct (penalty), it is the cause.
 
Gas turbine engines will not generate any thrust if the temperature of the gas remains constant. If the temperature ratio across the turbine is set equal to unity, there won't be any work available to drive the compressor. It's simple thermodynamics.
 
What if the jet engine gets so hot, that it's inner components start to melt and disintegrate?

What is the melting temperature of the alloys typically used in gas turbines?
 
As previously stated, some of the parts of a jet engine (such as the turbine inlet) are cooled. I'm sure there are other parts that require cooling.
 
The_Absolute said:
How are jet engines cooled? I've seen diagrams of all different kinds of jet engines and I cannot find anything which resembles a cooling mechanism.

Look up "http://www.google.com/search?q=turbine+blade+cooling"" and you'll fine plenty of information.
 
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  • #10
There are many different schemes for cooling. The most common form is blade passage cooling. Very small holes are EDM'd into blades and they all use bleed air to limit material temperatures...not air temperatures and combine that with coatings like TBM. We can create combustion temperatures well above melting of most alloys we make turbines from.

Here is a good picture of stator (or shrouded turbine) leading edge cooling:
http://www.jaxa.jp/article/special/aviation/img/hayashi_photo_04_e.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #11
I think it should be noted that you don't want to keep the air hot at all stages. Cooling of the incoming gas at the compression stage is extremely important for efficiency. You don't want high gas temperatures until after compression.
 
  • #12
I've seen antique blades that were "porous," but the were heavy and expensive. All of the modern blades I've seen were essentially walls with an opening that ran radially.

The blade assembly has an inner ring and outer ring with the blades going from one to the other. There are openings in the rings to allow cooling air to flow through.

Of course, you still want to minimize the bypass gasses wasted on cooling and you still want the hot chamber to run as hot as you can get it. Thus the emphasis on the newer alloys.

- Mike
 
  • #13
Melting temperatures are typically in the mid-2000°F range. Some common materials are most of the Inconel family (100, 718,713, 625 for lower temp/stress) Combustor temperatures can easily reach that. Turbine blades now can be investment cast with cooling passages running through them.

In addition to that, there are numerous impingement strategies that can be employed either on the turbine shroud or around the turbine inlet nozzle.
 
  • #14
Well quick thing, actually it is better to cool the exhaust after it leaves the combustion chamber because once the heated gasses cool they carry more mass. After that it's simple physics
 

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