News Is Crushing the Insurgency a Realistic Goal?

[plover]

In spite of that, no Palestinian organization bombed American targets.

I assume you mean organizations based in the West Bank and Gaza again? (Hezbollah bombed US embassy in Beirut etc...)

 

[Bilal]

You mean the attacks against Marines and French forces in 1983.

Hezbollah is Lebanese Shia organization... . As I know those who bombed the Marines are unknown Shia group, because they bombed also French forces, which supported Syria against Israel in 1982. In that time Hezbullah just started to split from AMAL organization …

There were several attacks against American/French/Iraqi/Saudi Arabian targets by Shia secret groups who support Iran. These attacks were revenge for the support of Saddam against Iran in the first Gulf war (1980-1988).

I assume you mean organizations based in the West Bank and Gaza again? (Hezbollah bombed US embassy in Beirut etc...)

 

[plover]

I found this page when I looked up Beirut embassy bombing, which also has this description of the reaction to the Beirut marine barracks bombing:

[The president's national security team planned an attack against] the Sheik Abdullah barracks in Baalbek, Lebanon ... Defense Secretary Caspar Weinberger aborted the mission ... Instead, President Reagan ordered the battleship USS New Jersey, stationed off the coast of Lebanon, to the hills near Beirut. The move was seen as largely ineffective.

Hmm... I didn't know the US Navy had amphibious battleships...

 

[plover]

Hezbollah is Lebanese Shia organization...

Sorry – a stupid mistake...

You mean the attacks against Marines and French forces in 1983.

A few months before the attack on the Marine barracks, the US embassy in Beirut was bombed—and this was apparently done by Hezbollah.

 

[kat]

russ_watters


Irgun actions
• 1937-1939 - A large number of attacks against Arabs, sometimes en masse, were carried out, especially under the command of Moshe Rosenberg and David Raziel. For example, 24 Arabs were killed and 39 injured by a marketplace bomb in Haifa, February 27, 1939, and further casualties were caused by bombs in Jerusalem and Tel-Aviv on the same day. (Sources: Palestine (now Jerusalem) Post 2/28/39; Y. Ben-Ami, Years of Wrath, Days of Glory; Memiors of the Irgun (1982))
• July 22, 1946 - Irgun bombs King David Hotel in Jerusalem, headquarters of the British civil and military administration, killing 91 people (17 Jewish). The Irgun gave a warning to evacuate the building, which was ignored by the British (Source: [1] (http://www.onwar.com/aced/nation/jay/jew/firgun1931.htm))
• October 31, 1946 - Irgun bombs British Embassy in Rome, Italy. (Source: [2] (http://www.cdiss.org/)).
• May 4, 1947 - the Irgun breaks into the Akko prison and releases 27 Jewish activists (Source: [[3] (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Acre.html)] , [[4] (http://www.etzel.org.il/english/ac13.htm)])
• September 29, 1947 - Irgun bombs police station in Haifa, Palestine, killing four British and four Arab policemen, and two Arab civilians. (Source: [5] (http://www.cdiss.org/)).
• December 29, 1947 - Irgun throws grenades into cafe in Jerusalem, Palestine, killing 11 Arabs and 2 British policemen. (Source: [6] (http://www.cdiss.org/)).
• 9 April 1948 - The Irgun together with the Stern gang attacked the Palestinian village of Deir Yassin during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, killing at least 107 civilians. See Deir Yassin massacre.


The second terrorist Zionist group :

Lehi :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)


((Lehi was founded by Stern in 1940 as an offshoot from Irgun. It was initially named Irgun Zvai Leumi be-Yisrael (National Military Organization in Israel). Following Stern's death in 1942, and the arrest of many of its members, the group went into eclipse until it was reformed as "Lehi" under a triumvirate of Israel Eldad, Natan Yellin-Mor, and Yitzhak Shamir. Shamir became the Prime Minister of Israel forty years later .))

Colabration between Lihi and NAZI!

((Late in 1940, the Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik was sent to Beirut where he met the German official Werner Otto von Hentig and delivered a letter from Lehi offering to "actively take part in the war on Germany's side" in return for German support for "the establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich". Von Hentig forwarded the letter to the German embassy in Ankara, but there is no record of any official response. Lehi tried to establish contact with the Germans again in December 1941, also apparently without success.))

Lest we be led to believing that Irgun developed out of a vacumn and that Arabs and Jews lived in peace until the introduction of British Joooo compassions or perhaps a compassion to get rid of a mega headache created by the contradiction of Euro Anti-semitism and their own vision of their own humanitarian tendencies... Please remember that attacks on the jews started waaay back in 1882 during the Ottoman period and then continued throughout the Mandatory period, throughout the period of civil war, throughout the period of international war, and continue right up into this day.
Perhaps the most important of those attacks between 1882 and 1914 during Ottoman period were the Arab attacks on Jewish villages, namely the attacks on places such as Ness Ziona, Kineret, Sejera, Degania, Yavniel, Ben Shemen, Hadera, Petah Tikvah, Rehovot, Gedera, and Merhavia. Those attacks effected the attitude of the jews towards the possibility of existing in peace was later negatively reinforced by two massive country-wide anti-Jewish pogroms, the first in 1920-21 which gave rise to the Jews forming a defense army for the first time, (the Hagannah) and the second in 1929 in which Jews were attacked and killed by Arab mobs in every major city of Palestine.
And lest we continue to think that overall Jews were well treated and lived peacefully with the Arabs of the Palestinian REGION..lets not forget that there was a historic Muslim practice in several places of treating the Jews as second class citizens (dhimmi). Many times and in many places Muslim authorities forbade the Jews from owning land, from being witnesses in their own trials, forced Jews to wear special clothing and markings, did not allow the Jews to build synagogues or repairing the existing ones, forbade Jews from riding a horse in the presence of a walking Muslim and charged Jews more taxes than Muslims.
Do you think this history left the Jews unaffected? Do you think that it's more unfair that among the jews there might not be many who grabbed at the historic opportunity for revenge or a fight for freedom born out of oppression directly at the hand of Arabs? The cycle of oppression and violence against jews began long before the Brits seemingly convenient nod at Zionism.

 

[Bilal]

Daer Kat,

First wave of Jews refugees to Palestine was on 9 August 1882 from Russia. These people were welcomed by Palestinian. They built for them two cities: Beteh Teqwa and Hudaira ...

In the end of 19th century, Jews counted 40000 people (most of them refugees).

Could you tell me about any Israeli or Zionist leader who has one of his parent born in Palestine? All those who created Israel and destroy Palestine are born in Europe.. few of them born in Palestine , but their parent born in Europe.

Here is information about demography in Palestine from extremist Zionist site:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/demograhics.html

In 1800: Muslims 246,300; Christian 21,800 and No Jews
In 1882 (Jews refugees from Russia): 24,000

Concerning history of Jews in Islamic world:

- Muslims got Palestine from Roman. As you know, Roman annihilated Jews of Jerusalem and destroyed their temple. One of Roman conditions to give Jerusalem to Palestinian: No Jews are allowed to live in this city.

This means: Muslims did not take Jerusalem from Jews or destroyed them. The city already empty from Jews by Roman …

- In 1095, Crusaders invaded the Holy Land. They murdered all the citizens of Jerusalem: 60000 Muslims, 4000 Jews and few thousands of orthodox Christian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Crusade

((Almost every inhabitant of Jerusalem was killed. Muslims, Jews, and even eastern Christians were all massacred. ))

- After Muslims Liberated Jerusalem in 1187, they built the Jews quarter before starting to build the Islamic quarters. This shows how Muslims admired the Jews and felt for their pains under the rule of Crusaders.

- Jews golden age: under Islamic rule of Spain (Andalusia) from 10th century till 12th century. In Israel many Jews celebrate that golden age.

- In 10th century, many Jews lived in Baghdad (The capital of Islam) till they became more than 15% of the city (2 millions in that time). They got a lot of respect and gifts from Khilafa because they were educated and translated many old documents and books from Hebrew to Arabic.

- In 1494, Andalusia fall … Catholic Spanish annihilated Muslims and Jews of Spain within 40 years. Muslims Ottoman sent several ships to Spain to save thousands of poor Jews from the hand of the Catholic Church. The rest of Jews left to Morocco..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain

((in 1492, Isabel and Fernando ordered the expulsion of all Jews from their dominions, having imposed physical segregation in 1480 (two years after the establishment of the Inquisition) and, in 1502, Muslims were forced to convert to Christianity or be banished.))


- In 19th century, Ottoman Empire supported the Jews of Russia and welcomed them as refugees.

- In 2WW: Muslims of Balkan and Turkey saved of thousands of Jews families from the NAZI.

Dhimmi means in Arabic ‘’people of the conscience or under protection’’. This means those people should be protected by the rules of the State. Theories about wearing different clothes or not owing land is just ‘’myth’’. If they discriminated by Muslims, I do not think they will call it golden ages of Jews.
Concerning Jezia (tax): Muslims should pay Zakat and non Muslims should pay Jezia .. both taxes more or less the same. They used in ‘’Beit ElmaL’’ to help the poor people and to build charitable projects. Beside the fact , that every Muslims FORCED to join the army during war time , but for non Muslims it is their choice to pay Jezia or to join the army.

Here is information from the link provided by russ (international western sources):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_Judaism#The_Golden_Age

((In 711 CE Muslim armies invaded and occupied most of the Iberian peninsula, which had until then been under Christian rule. At this time Jews made up about 8% of Spain's population. Under Christian rule, Jews had been subject to frequent and intense persecution, but this was alleviated under Muslim rule. This is widely considered to be the beginning of the Golden Age for Jews in Spain.))

((Jews residing in predominantly Muslim Ottoman empire lived in a tolerant environment with Turkish, Arab and Christian neighbors.))

You can read more about early history of Israel:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

 

[Bilal]

Kat,

You can read more about Dhimmi from western academic sources instead to follow ''propaganda''. This source does not represent my views , but at least it should be accepted by western people because it is academic-scientific-documented westren site:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi

((A Dhimmi, or Zimmi (Arabic ذمّي), as defined in classical Islamic legal and political literature, is a person living in a Muslim state who is a member of an officially tolerated non-Muslim religion. The term literally means "protected person."))

((Christians and Jews were allowed to live in peace within the Muslim society, on the condition (also required of Muslim subjects) of submission to their rulers. An example is the Muslim state of Cordoba in Southern Spain where Christians and Jews prospered. Maimonides, by some considered the greatest Jewish philosopher and Talmudic sage, lived in Muslim Spain, North Africa and Egypt. As late as the 16th century, religious tolerance in Europe was greatest within the Ottoman Empire.))

Status of Dhimmis

For several centuries following the codification of the Quran, the Islamic Caliphate expanded its political control rapidly through warfare. Conquered peoples - including Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, Sabians, and Hindus - became dhimmis: protected citizens under Islamic law, allowed the rights listed below on condition of loyalty or acquiescence to the government and paying the taxes mentioned below:

Rights:

Protection of life, wealth and honor by the Muslim state (even against other co-religionist states)
Right to reside in Muslim lands
Right of worship according to their own religion
Right to work and trade

Exemptions:

Exemption from paying zakah "alms to the poor"
Exemption from being drafted in military service
Exemptions from religious duties specific to Muslims
Exemptions from personal Muslim laws (e.g. marriage, divorce)

Obligations:

Paying jizyah (Poll tax)
Paying land tax

Dhimmis in Islam vs. minorities in non-Muslim societies

It is interesting to compare dhimmi status in Muslim societies with other laws and restrictions imposed on minorities in non-Muslim societies in the medieval period.

Severe and harsh restrictions were imposed on Jews in Europe before Islam came to Spain. The Visigothic Code (or Forum Judicum), has an entire book dedicated to laws concerning Jews, with severe restrictions, and often one-sided laws. King Ervigius additions to the code are even more restrictive. It forced Jews not to prevent their children from baptism, prohibited them from celebrating Passover, undergoing circumcision, marriage of relatives, observing dietary laws, reading books that the Christian faith rejects, testifying against Christians, as well as forbidding Christians from defending or protecting Jews, and forcing Jews to abstain from labor on Sundays and Christian holidays.

Dress code and other restrictions were forced by Christians on Jews, as well as Muslims in Europe. In Spain it was enforced, and penalties were levied if mudejars did not observe it. As early as 1215 the Fourth Council of the Lateran under Pope Innocent III issued a decree that Muslims and Jews shall wear a special dress to distinguish them from Christians. This concept is thus common to medieval Christendom and Islam.

It is even more interesting to compare dhimmis status in Muslim societies with other laws and restrictions imposed on minorities in non-Muslim societies in the modern period. While Europe has repealed all of the restrictive religious-based measures mentioned herein, and repealed them without exception, not a few Muslim countries still impose dhimmi restrictions up to the present day.

*********************

((There is a hadith that prophet Muhammad indeed did order the execution of a Muslim because he killed a dhimmi, as narrated in Abdul Razzaq and Al Baihaqi. This hadith's authenticity is disputed. Moreover, Ali almost ordered the execution in a similar case had it not been for the dhimmi victim's brother asking for the Muslim not to be executed. Ali said : "Those who have our dhimma have their blood equal to ours ... [they paid the jizyah so that their life and our lives are equal]". Moreover, Omar Ibn Abdul Aziz ordered his regional governors to execute those who kill any dhimmis.This view is adopted by the Maliki and Hanafi schools, as well as many other jurists, such as Al Laith Ibn Saad, Al Sha'bi, Ibn Abi Laila, and Al Nakh'i.

Most Islamic states followed this view, as it is evident above during Ali's and Omar II's reigns. It should be noted that the Ottoman Empire also followed this view until its end in 1924.))